not starting, weird whine pressing ignition
 

So, I'm having a weird starting issue. I just rebuilt the motor, and everything was going smoothly, until I went to press the start button. I was getting a "pop" from the starter, but it doesn't turn. Even weirder, I get this whine while it seems to be trying to get the starter motor going. I pulled the starter, and pressed the button, and the solenoid popped out, but didn't turn. I checked for codes with none showing, got a brand new battery, as I did need one, checked the fuses and relays, even took the transmission back off to check the CPS plate was aligned properly, then went ahead and got another starter, but the issues still persist. I haven't driven my car in over a year and a half... long story about a hit and run driver hitting me, leading to a blown engine, with denied warranty claims, long story short, it's taken me a while to rebuild the motor, and get back to this point. Any help would be extremely grateful!:thanks:

Engine view:
http://https://youtu.be/h6vJ7YDv-gY

Dash view:
http://https://youtu.be/kDsHlhnZA6M

If you are sure your engine is in good shape and have a manual car, you could try pushing it to start it, that will allow you to discard a problem with the engine itself and you can focus on electrical connections to and from the starter, since it seems to try and send current thru it, yet it doesnt spin (that noise is not the spinning noise it makes when trying to start, either on car, or when not connected to the engine). Other than that, I have no suggestions.

Yeah, I tried pull starting it before and it didn't start, but that was also when I had that bad battery, then again that would be a reason why you would push start your car. lol It might also take more than what I tried, as it's pretty much a new motor, but a good battery is very important on these car's I'm finding. I've got some pneumatic jacks, and I'm thinking about lifting the rear, wrapping the free end of one of this 3000lb ratchet straps used in the oilfield around one of the rear tires, and pulling it with a truck or dirt bike. Lol! I told my buddy that, and he said he's actually seen it successfully done. That makes me more inclined to try. So, what I have done so far is add another ground wire to the starter, (the one I just got) and it doesn't make that whine anymore when I press the ignition. I just get a few hard clicks from the solenoid on the starter, but still nothing. I've read about other post with very similar issues, but none of them ever came back with a solution to their problem. Here's an updated video of what it is doing now.

https://youtu.be/Snn600daduA

Are you sure the engine will turn over (not frozen) ..?? manually turn it over with the crank pulley ..??

Are you sure the "other starter" you got is good ....... bench test it ...??


humfrz

Have you checked the new battery? Those clicks sound a lot like a low amp situation.

I'm for sure the engine spins freely. As for the starter situation, I had the old one tested multiple times at different places, and it came out good, but I still decided on getting another one, after discussing my situation with many people. I haven't had the second starter tested, but I might as well go ahead and do so. Tcoat, after scouring the forums, and seeing the issues a low battery can cause, I have thought maybe the new battery doesn't have sufficient charge from trying multiple times now, as when I checked the battery when I was finished yesterday it was at 12.3V. I'll get some buddy's together to push the car out of the shop, so we can jump it from another car to see what that does. I'll try this again first, before I take the starter out to be tested. Thanks for the suggestions

Check your connections for the terminals and at the starter for corrosion as well. It only takes a small drop in amperage to mess with a starter.

Okay, so I was finally able get a friend to run out and do some tests with me. What I found was the starter making the click noise is because of low amperage, like you suggested Tcoat, but when I would hook it up to the truck the starter would make the whining noise like in the first video. I took the starter off, and plugged everything back up to see what it's doing, and the solenoid is pushing the gear out, but not spinning. This is the same with both starters I have, but I'm leaning towards getting a new starter, as the one I bought was off a wrecked FRS. I took some video below to show how the starter is sticking and not turning. Before I took the video, the stater did exactly what is shown in the video below, but also made the whining noise when it wouldn't turn. That's when I pulled the camera out to try and get it on video, but it wouldn't make the noise again, and I stopped when I noticed that battery cables to the starter started smoking. I took that harness apart, and found an exposed area on the negative cable to the starter, then further down on the cable the plastic around the cable had started to melt. I've got a new set of battery cables on the way, but I want to find out why it did what it did, so I don't melt the new cables, unless it was from the first exposed section of wire I found, where there is no evidence of the plastic melting? Tried uploading pics of the exposed cables, but I need to resize them to the appropriate size to upload them. So, anyone got any idea what may be going on?

https://youtu.be/kXmAFW3azgA

You are still not getting enough amps to the starter. If you had wires heat up then there is resistance someplace in the line. You may have pinched a wire someplace along the way and that would account for the low amps and the resistance.

Well, could the exposed area in the middle of the negative cable I found be the cause of said resistance? I've got new OEM battery cables on the way.

Fuses>relays>wiring/connectors.

Did you hook up a battery directly to the starter to test it?

Sadly, on short notice I learned all about fixing a starter. This due to $188 tow from my driveway to dealer 4 miles away and then charged just under $900 to replace starter since I had already checked fuses etc. Initially they quoted me $1300 and I told him to get the starter from Subaru which accounted for the $500 drop. In the future and when my DD is not blocked into the garage I will swap my own starter for less than $400. And the dealer had the nerve to charge me 3x hours labour (@$130/hr) for the job. I asked the service writer what the mechanic will do for the extra 2.5 hours to keep busy. LoL

Okay, sorry it's taken me a bit to get to where I could get out to work on my car. I hooked strait up to the battery, bypassing the car, and the starter is doing the same exact same thing. When I engage the solenoid the voltage drops to 4.50V. I've got brand new OEM battery cables, went and bought some good little wire brushes, and found this plumbers tool in my shop that's perfect for cleaning inside the battery terminal ends, and it cleaned out the terminal ends till they were nice and shiny copper. I went and had both starters I have tested, for the third time, and I watched both of them spin good, again. I charged the new battery back up to 12.97V, as it was down at 12.22 when I got done experimenting the other day, but with all of that the result is the same; solenoid sticks and voltage drops from basically 13V down to 4.5V when I engage the solenoid. :iono: The only thing I haven't replaced are the terminal ends that connect from the battery to the cable. Lol I guess I can go to Subaru or Toyota and order some.

Are you sure you have the cables hooked up properly? If the starter works on test but won't when hooked up directly it is the only think I can think of. Would also explain your smoking wires and voltage drop I suppose.

I'm pretty sure they're hooked up correctly. I had the same thought, and tried to hook them up the other way around, but the cables won't really allow for it, so I never did hook it up the other way. I guess I can try though.

I think you have a shorted armature winding in the starter motor. Whether or not it spins or in the worst case, hangs at the dead short is a matter of chance at where the rotor last came to rest. I'm pretty sure that whine is the rotor oscillating, bouncing on and off of the shorted winding.

Ulramaroon, I've also thought the same, but then why when I have them tested, which is 3 visits and a total of 8 test, they test good every time, but when I hook it up to my battery it does all of this nonsense? My buddy and I went back out there tonight, and went ahead and intentionally hooked the starter up backwards, out of the car obviously, but it still did the same thing it has been doing. Him and I have known each other over 25 years, and have worked on a lot of cars together. We've ran into a lot of different problems, but this one has been the most difficult by far we've ran into.

That really sucks.

Does it do that nonsense 100% of the time? If you try and rotate the motor a little before you trigger it each time, does it maybe change anything? How about the orientation of the starter motor in the test fixture versus the engine bay?

The wires getting hot, together with the huge drop in voltage across the terminals, say short circuit.

Pull that sucker apart and get eyes on the commutator & windings.

https://demos.starbase7.net/t3Portal...00EGY023X.html

I'd be interested to know if the car would push start. Are you sure the flywheel isn't frozen?

I had that thought, but, the OP mentioned up above, that the engine will spin freely .....:iono:


humfrz

Okay, so I've been out there a couple of times this week and fiddled with my car, even had someone else come out, but the results where all the same. Today I went out there, and decided to mess with my Honda Civic that got smashed a year ago. I was always having starting issues on that car since I got it, and decided to take a look at it again after dealing with my BRZ. I found the negative terminal wasn't grounded to a proper chassis ground, then cleaned everything. I noticed there was no ground cable on the starter, only a positive cable and the ignition cable. The ground terminal only had the nut, so I went ahead and hooked up a ground wire, then hooked the battery up. When I pressed the clutch and turned the ignition, the starter made the same whine as my BRZ... I was like "You gotta be joking." I went and disconnected the ground I had put on the the starter, tried again, and the Honda started right up, then died again due to over year old gas in the lines.

After discovering that with the Honda I went and took the negative cable off the starter, then pressed the ignition button... Bam! That starter started cranking, and the motor was trying to start, but I have a wire shorted somewhere that's keeping my baby from starting. So, I am chasing that down at the moment. Ran a resistance test between wires, with the negative cable off the battery, and maybe I didn't perform the test properly, but I checked continuity between the negative terminal and ground, with setting on 20k, and got .01, then when I put the diode on the positive cable I was expecting an infinit reading, but what I got was .27, if I remember correctly, (Test was ran a couple of days ago). So, with that reading that would indicate a short, as well with the starter turning without the ground cable connected. Any idea where I should start my search, and best way about chasing that shorted wire down?

OK, @Ultramaroon ....... be the closer for this problem .....:thumbsup:


humfrz

That's crazy. I can't think of any reason why a ground wire would cause this to happen unless something that its touching is positively charged somehow.

So, I went out and started running continuity tests on fuses and relay to try and see what might be giving me continuity between the the ground and positive battery terminal. I came across 9 fuses that when I put them back in would generate continuity. There where 8 in the engine bay, MPX-B, Haz, AM2 No. 2, D/L, D FR Door, ABS No. 2, D FL Door, and DCC, which connects to ECU-B and Dome fuses, then one in the interior AMP. I labeled all the relays as I took them out, so Iwould know easily where they went. When I plugged everything back in though, my car won't even turn accessory mode on, and the ignition button is now completely unresponsive. I went back and checked the continuity between ground and positive again, and there was none this time. All the lights in the interior come on, as well as the open door light on the dash. After, that's when I decided to called it a day.

Hello again, time for a little update. So, for the last week I've really been trying to learn how to track down a shorted wire. On a positive note, I've got power back to the inside of the car. My fault, when reinstalling fuses I put one in a spot only for the automatic, so when I ran out of the fuses I took out, I thought that was it. Traced wires from the interior that should have been getting power to the fuse that was missing, put one in, then bam power to the ignition button, and back to my whining starter issue. Never thought I'd be so happy to get back to that point. �� In my search to figure out why that was happening, I might have found a continuity issue between the IG2 relay and the IGS relay. I tried uploading a pic of the PDF with the points circled, but it kept telling me jpeg had incorrect file extension, so I guess I'll try later. For now, I guess I'll have to convey it in words the best I can. Between the IGS and IG2 relay, I get continuity between the wires on point #1 on IGS relay sided, and #3 point on the IG2 relay, as expected, but with the relays disconnected I'm getting continuity between wires on point #1 IGS and point #5 on IG2 as well. If I take out the 30amp IG2 Main fuse I loose continuity between the two, 1&5. Anyone know if I should have continuity between these two wires?

I know this wiring diagram is for 2016 and key start but I think, for the downstream area you're dealing with, it's the same.

Are you sure the starter gear is actually lined up with the flywheel and is making contact?

Yes, if I take the ground off the starter the starter will spin the motor like normal, but when I connect the ground back to the starter it binds up, and makes the whining noise like in the very first video I posted. So, pretty sure that means a shorted wire somewhere upstream from the starter, and I'm just trying to figure out exactly where now.

Umm, suggestions on where should I start looking in that thing you linked? Lol

Expand the tree on System Circuit > Engine/Hybrid > Starting.

Good deal! Thank you for saving me some time searching.

IMHO, time spent getting familiar with the service manual pays back huge dividends when actually used for troubleshooting. There's a boatload of good stuff in there but it can be a little tricky to find. Good luck.

Ok, so I figured it out my starting issue, and Having the car apart for almost 2 years, I had a slight oversight, and with the help of another member on here, I figured out what that over sight was. I was tracing wires from the fuse box, and got to the point of the starter again. It was back to taking the ground off the starter, which going by my findings and what others said, it made total since. Then I was back at the question of, "So, where does it go then?" I suddenly remembered a little bracket on my work bench that I couldn't figure out where it went, and then I remembered. That bracket is what the ground cable connects to, which then connects to the starter via the transmission bolt... Yeah, I felt like a total dumbass, but the car cranks up like normal now, and it starts, but then dies a couple of seconds later. I some codes P0300 multiple cylinder misfire, P0137 02 Sensor voltage, P0108 MAP Circut high, P2096 post cat too lean, P1604 multiple non-starts (obviously), and B14A1 Air Con (don't care), but the first 4 I've started looking into to see where my issue may be.

Well, you're making progress ……… just look around your garage for other things you left out ……. :D

humfrz

Okay, so I thought I would come back and share my story. With the help of another member on here, we narrowed my issue down to the timing, and I was 180 degrees off on the cam timing, so everything turned normal and free, just not in the right position to fire properly. Took the damn timing cover back off, re-adjusted the timing, and it fired right up. So, to anyone else who rebuilds there own motor I would suggest following the instructions here, https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...87902-5448.pdf , as they were much more detailed than the Subaru manual. Thanks everyone for the help and advice

Reminds me of the time back-in-the-old Army motor pool. I was the Battalion Motor Officer (among other things) and the maintenance crew had just worked on the Battalion S-4's 3/4 ton truck.

After they put it back together, it wouldn't start … not even close to starting. The S-4 was pissed. Finally, the old, crusty, motor sergeant went over watched them try to start it and barked at them … you dumb asses put the distributor back in backwards (180 degrees off). Yes, it will go into the slot two ways .. the right way and the wrong way.

They turned it around and the truck started right up.

Old sergeants are smart … :thumbsup:


humfrz