Car clicks but won't crank. Battery or Starter?
 

Guys,

So I have had this problem for nearly a year now. This does not always happen but rather a bit randomly. Sometimes after parking for a week, sometimes after driving 45 minutes on highway and parked for 15 minutes...

I have since taken the car to the dealership twice over the course of half a year with them telling me everything is fine. Symptom is when trying to start the car (push button start) the car clicks and lights flash on and off. Recorded this video last night. Tried even to turn off head lights, dome lights, unplugged dash cam...

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOsAiX_HSdQ"]VID_20180222_200420.mp4 - YouTube[/ame]

Now I am not at all knowledgeable electricity but a few Google diagnosis appears that my alternator is fine since I can drive it around no problem once it starts. The battery's crank power appears fine too since 80% of the time it starts without hesitation. Sometimes the car starts on the second try all normal, sometimes it just won't.

Reason I am asking. Does this appear like a slow drain somewhere to you guys? Or could it be that somehow the car requires a really high crank power that even the slightest drop in charge disables the crank? The symptom is not very consistent so before I go to the dealership and get turned away again I would like some opinions.

Thank you all!

It is a slow drain and weak battery. This is known to happen with the BRZ but we have never really figured it out. Replace the battery and all will be fine.

+1, definitely seems like the battery

This was a huge issue I watched closely a couple of years ago. It has slowed way down from what it was since most of the batteries have probably been replaced. When I was keeping track there were about 10 BRZs with the problem for every FRS that had it. Since there were about 100 FRSs for every BRZ at the time that difference is much larger than it seems. They both had the exact same battery so there is something about the BRZs that was drawing amperage. Many of the cases showed the battery to still be at the proper voltage range but they simply did not have the cranking amps to turn the car over. In ever situation where the person updated after getting a new battery there was never a reported return of the issue. There were a few theories at the time but I don't think we ever came to a final conclusion.


My 14 FRS still has the original battery and after 4 Canadian winters still cranks the car like it did when it was new. A while back we had temperatures of -10F for a few days and even then it worked as if it was August.

something to think about as I was planning on going to a lightweight LI battery when the time comes...

This is why it kind of troubles me. I actually did have a battery replaced sometime early 2016. It is a different battery than the stock BRZ one IIRC than the stock one and supposedly has more cranking power at 750?

I have a feeling it is the alarm system and the keyless entry. From what I understand, the proximity key sensor is always on and when any key (from any car) comes near it draws a bit of charge to read it. When the car is parked inside beside another frequently used car with proximity key, that could be why it drains the battery?

My confusion of posting this, is that the battery seems to always have more than enough juice to power everything else but can't turn the crank... It's almost like the battery needs to be at least 90% full at the time of crank so it reaches the state of "still a lot of juice but just can't start the car" really fast... I find it very hard to accept.

Either way I will try the battery route first.

Don't recall anybody having an issue with them. At least nobody that said anything at the time.

Wouldn't they be more susceptible to small draw, if that is what is going on with the BRZ?

This is one of the most commonly stated and misunderstood things I have read on many car forums (and discussed before forums existed).
Your battery can indeed seem to have plenty of power for everything else and not be able to crank the car. All the lights and HU and everything else only draw a couple of amps so they will seem fine. The starter motor needs full amperage to work. When you try to start it and just hear a click that is the solenoid engaging the gear on the starter. There is enough power to push it up but not enough to spin the starter motor. Keep in mind that starter motor is trying to spin all of the internals in the engine from a dead stop. That takes more oomph that turning on the dash lights.
If you have changed the battery then perhaps it just needs a little maintenance. Check the electrolyte levels and make sure they are all up. Pull the cable clamps and make sure they are clean and tight. Even a small bit of corrosion can cause intermittent issues with starting. Have the battery checked for both voltage and amperage before you go changing it again since it could be a charging system issue (I doubt it is but check).

I would think so yes but don't recall anybody saying it happened. They may hold amperage better? I don't know a lot about them.

There are plenty of guys in NorCal that DD on lightweight stuff. There are even some that will hold a charge for about a week. Just get an appropriate charger if you're gonna leave it awhile to be safe.

Good to know, I leave for extended periods of time fairly regularly, so I am used to using chargers/conditioners...I just don't want to get stuck with a car that won't start when I am trying to leave work in the middle of winter.


I will keep one of those little jumper packs in my car as well, but speaking of which, can the 6MTs be push started if they have the push-button ignition?

Having met a bunch of the NorCal guys I have little doubt that many are experts on items involving lithium.

A battery may test fine, it depends on the tester. I've seen batteries that would test fine on a non-load tester then drop off a cliff at 9V draw. Not all testers are created equal.

From the video and what you wrote above, it looks to me like you just have a bad battery. It'll take a good surface charge and maybe even a somewhat deep charge but when a good load is put on it (starting is a huge load) it'll fail.

Have your alternator actually tested when you put the new battery in. Tested WITH the new battery installed.

Yeah,that would be the best bet. Just do some reading as not all batteries are created equal, especially lithium ones.

And yes, just push the button twice with your foot off the pedals to be "ON" iirc and then pop the clutch like normal

Had the exact same thing on my old Subaru outback. Battery tested fine (first and easiest thing to check), and was in the process of trying to remove my starter when I noticed the main ground was corroded and brittle. Replaced that and it started right up. Now, this was a 200,000 miles 10 year old vehicle, but I would also check your cables and ground connections for damage of some sort if your battery tests fine.

Yep. The good old hierarchy of electrical trouble shooting.
First Power source.
Then cables and connections.
Then drives and components.


Any other order just has you chasing your tail.

It's easier just to replace it all...

Well there were at least two guys on here that replaced both the starter and alternator BEFORE checking the battery. They then learned that most places will not accept returns for starters and alternators.

What do you do when the car won't start? Does it finally start after a couples of try?
Do you have to charge/boost the battery for it to start?
If the battery is so weak that the car won't even crank a little (only click), in my mind it shouldn't suddently start after a couples of try.


I would look into the ground/starter wires, or even the starter itself.

This has happened twice on my brz and it was because the boot(trunk) was not closed properly and the light drained the battery.
The original 5 year old battery is still running fine and i have only topped it up with demineralised water once.
Also very wet/humid/moist/snow/ice conditions can drain the battery.

^^This

OP, before you fork out any dough, check for any loose or corroded connections. Your comment that it craps out even immediately after driving has me suspicious.

Expensive...It happens. I've done in too. It's all part of the learning experience.

:bonk:

It was one lesson I never had to learn the hard way since it was drilled into me when I was 7 or 8 years old and helping my dad get some old junker running. That man would not spend a penny to fix something so we went through the whole process for any issues. If it was something like the starter that was actually bad at the end then he (or later, I) would strip it down, clean and fix it and put it back together. That worked about 98% of the time. From then on when trouble shooting I would always start at the beginning of the failed system and work back to the part that wasn't working instead of starting at the part and working forward. I bet 8 times out of ten it wasn't what was working that was at fault in the first place.

True, I troubleshoot way more than I ever have now that things are so expensive. I'm actually doing some of that tomorrow...

But, back in the day you could go to the wreckers and grab a ton of parts for next to nothing, if you took them off yourself. Extra parts were good to have! We used to just swap'em out until the problem was solved. :)

I like extra parts :sigh:

That was what we would do for the 2% we couldn't get to work. Dad would find some way to barter, scam, or steal them from the wreckers though. I practically grew up in the wrecking yards.

I miss them :cry:

Well, not that much but it was great experience.

Not the same anymore. At least around here. There may still be some with the smelly, no toothed guy with nicotine stained lips and fingers that has never been seen out of the chair behind the counter that will tell you "Yep a a 62 Buick? Be one 3 rows down and two over. Pretty banged up but the gas tank should be OK. Five bucks if you take it out and eight if we do. Oh and if you find an ear or a couple of fingers in it let us know they keep asking". Then you would hitch a ride to the far corner in the torch car which usually consisted of little more than a frame, drive train and roof of some 20 year old wreck.

Yep, I hear that.

While you were there and found a car like yours and had a pocket full of wrenches, even though you were there just for a generator, might as well pluck off that carburetor, distributor cap, coil, voltage regulator and fuel pump, to have on hand for spare parts.

;)


humfrz

And Smelly would look at the pile and go "You got ten bucks cash? Gonna be $20 if you wantta write a cheque"

I wonder if this issue appeared more prevalent in BRZs because the BRZ limited has the push start, and the early FRS didn’t have that option. I had this exact issue in my FRS but only after I installed the easygo kit, particularly when it was too hot outside. Once I replaced the battery the problem went away. If I used the key start the problem didn’t happen. So maybe push start buttons require more amps to crank than a key or something? Any idea if the BRZ models you refer to were limiteds?

So update guys... for some more complex diagnostic.

So it is a day and a half after the video was shot. Saturday 12:30PM and before I go put another battery in, I tried to start it again. Car did not move at all, opened the door, got in, clutch, push button. 0 problems, 0 hiccups. Battery didn't even struggle to start the car. Everything was normal.

My thoughts: Battery charge LEVEL is probably fine. The slow drain (if it even exists) probably not the reason now.

Variables 1: It is much warmer at noon than that night, battery may have more power?

Or simply as everyone says, connections? However since I am so noob at this, would a loose connection behave like this? That everything works but somehow when a strong current runs though it suddenly cuts?

Yes. That's exactly how it works. Loose or corroded (resistive) connections get hot. Heat expands and distorts the junction. Things start to burn and further corrode at the gap. The junction cools and reconnects. The vicious cycle repeats until the junction degrades enough to open permanently.

Think about how old flashlights with those D cells will dim before they actually die, and how we always shake them to get more life out of the cells. Exact same principle.

Dude. It has been said over and over. Just give it a try. Probably the easiest repair there is.

That is indeed among the possibilities. Don't really know how it would do it but it is a common factor among the failures.

My favorite one was cash on the barrel head only, if the old man would charge me at all. His "junk yard" was really just part of his farm where he collected old vehicles.

All I had to do was help him move some heavy things he couldn't move by himself and then sit down under the maple trees in his front yard, have a glass of iced tea and listen to his stories. I learned that the longer I sat and listened to his stories, the more likely it was that he would say ...... ah, just take that stuff ...... :)


humfrz

yes, and the first connection I would check is at the battery, if you haven't already. Are the battery connections tight? Any corrosion seen? (if so clean it up)

For cryen out loud JERM^, take your car up to a local automotive shop and let them sort it out. Then, ask them what they did to "fix" it. That would be your learning experience for the day ..... ;)


humfrz

Maybe JERM is teaching us.

LOL the reasoning behind all these confirmation: I wanted to narrow the diagnostic as much as I could because I am still trying to get the dealership to "solve the problem" for me IN CASE it is some other electrical problem, after turning me away twice for the same problem.

Anyways been a busy day will clean them up tomorrow and see if anything goes wrong. Thanks for the help guys.