Newb with questions vs. RF & Abarth
 

Hello all, just joined forum hoping to learn a little about the twins here from actual owners instead of YouTube videos. I have a ‘17 Jeep Wrangler that I grinded to pay off early and have had my sites on second vehicle for a while, something opposite from my Jeep...handling corners, quick, fun to drive, better on gas, and good long term reliability.

I’ve had my sites set on ND Miata for a while, preferably RF but I’m 6’2, 180. I test drove one, tight but I fit somehow and really enjoyed driving it. Will be honest, learned stick on it, lol. Still need more practice but it’s a start. Then I saw new Fiat Spider Abarth in showroom with red/black seats and was blown away. Quad exhaust. Drove AT and loved the paddles, was really fun.

My last car in consideration is BRZ or 86 from looks and everything I’ve read. Looks like fun car. I’m married with one younger kid, but it’s me driving solo 95% of time and I’m keeping Jeep. Wife making me save to pay cash and not finance regardless of interest rates to “feel pain”. But I am putting good chunk back every month.

Pros and cons of owning BRZ/86 vs. other two other than small backseat? MT I’m assuming like folks on Miata forum? Is AT bad in this car? This car would be my 2nd daily and honestly will probably become 60-75% dd.

Thx in advance guys, really like forum. Sorry so long.

Test drive one.

You'll fit better, and there's space to haul all sorts, including more people in a pinch. I love being able to haul all my track gear in the car, or have room for luggage, etc. when we road trip.

The two platforms are both similar and different. If you had particular plans, one may be better... But for a car that's just about having fun, get the one you connect with best.

C

+1 for test drive it.

MT guys will say MT is best, AT guys will say AT is best. But really MT is best ;). Test both maybe?

I would think an abarth isn't the most reliable choice. Unless something has changed, reliable performance isn't the Italians' strong suit. I'd love to know how it compares to a twin though.

True regarding Abarth. That’s my hesitation with Fiat, noticing pricing on new models is already dropping. I love looks of RF but not sure I want to drop that much cash on it, I can get new BRZ for less than 23-24k. How’s clutch and shifter on BRZ? Especially for newb driving manual in traffic? It’ll be a while. Summer at earliest and possibly this time next year. I’ll probably test drive BRZ and 86 around March. I say March because I’m helping another person I know shop Subaru around that time and I’ll be there.

Any difference between Subaru and Toyota other than name for these? Honestly I’m not too crazy about huge spoiler on ts model but like wheels. Would like wheels without spoiler.

Miata is going to get small really fast in you. Not at all practical for a big guy with family. Purely a fun car sure. 70% dd not gonna happen.

Shifter is great when gearbox is warmed up, but can be a bit difficult when cold, particularly on a new car. I don't have anything I've driven even worth comparing it to though.

At this point the clutch feels 'normal' to me. I do remember it had a higher bite point relative to my previous car. All clutches are different and take some getting used to.

Between the twins, there are some suspension differences (less so now than earlier models as I hear?), but mostly it's interior, trim, and packages/add ons. There's also differences in the branding and service, but that's just Toyota vs Subaru in general.

Sounds like an FR-S/86/BRZ is right up your alley. Get a manual. Get tires. Get a tune+header and you're done (or just getting started.) IMO the 86 platform is the king of the low cost sports car Daily Driver. It's like a Miata but with just enough extra amenities to be useful day to day. Don't hesitate.

Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback. I’m certainly not buying to track, just fun little dd to keep miles low on my Jeep and save gas and enjoy. How’s driving stick on this for one with limited experience compared to ND I’m wondering? If anyone’s here driven ND. I know nothing about headers and tunes other than have heard about them, lol. Void warranty? Brands, money?

I have heard the AT is really good on the newer models of these cars for those thinking about going that route, I will test both in March. I notice AT gets a decent amount better mpg, I do care about gas being as my other vehicle is a damn Wrangler, possibly worse than any vehicle on market but I love my Jeep.

I am not sure how the ND is, but the 86 MT is pretty easy to drive IMO. The clutch is light, consistent and the FA20 doesn't make enough torque to jerk you around, lol. I have 5 more kids than you do, so not exactly an even comparison, but those extra seats and trunk space definitely come in handy - the Miata would not work for me even though I am alone in it 95% of the time. I have heard the AT is decent on these cars, but there is a performance cost to be paid in lost power, acceleration, etc. If you drive both and don't notice the difference, you might be just as well with the AT since you haven't felt the need to own an MT up to this point anyways.


Header and tune won't void your warranty, but depending on what route you take you might have issues with emissions if that is a thing where you live. Cost for that setup varies from roughly $1200-$3000+ depending on brand/cats/custom vs OTS tune/etc

Give this a read through
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115412

A Jeep then a Fiat... You love pain. Toyota reliability might not be your thing.

A Jeep and Fiat have poor reviews generaly. However the 124 is a Mazda so It should do better. The 86 is produced by Fuji Heavy industries so you are actually getting Subaru reliability that is generally a little below true Toyota cars.

Price difference is way too high for 86 vs MX5 RF, Fiat isn't even a choice imo. With the difference in price you could either just save that money or put it into the 86.

At 6'2" the Miata will get old very fast.

I had the same delima when purchasing. Always liked the Miata but never liked the looks of the front. Fiat fixed that with the front of the 124. Due to brand satisfaction ratings and dealer location went with the BRZ.

I didn't care for the spoiler either. I got the base model FR-S mostly for that reason.

You don't need to make changes right away to have a useful tool.

The AT has (or had anyway) a slightly taller final drive ratio in the differential and better mpg.
Also, the AT seems to be a solid unit with no wide-spread reports of falling apart.
The flappy paddles in manual mode work fine and it rev matches on downshifts. Woot!

Try one out and give it a chance.

Nah, Jeep’s get unfair rap. Like me coming to this forum to talk to actual owners and not dufus Consumer Reports and the like I spoke with many Jeep owners and joined forum way before buying my Jeep. Jeeps overall are still pretty basic and relatively easy to work with compared to many vehicles today. Go to Wrangler forum and ask how many have 100-150k, many. Other than radiator, the JK’s have been pretty good. I didn’t buy it expecting a Camry. The top down and doors off and going anywhere I want is well worth it. I plan on keeping my Jeep for 20 years, when things break I’ll fix it.

Now the Fiat is a different animal. I just like looks and it was fun to drive but I do agree about not trusting Fiat overall here in US. But yeah, they share same platform as Mazda. Other than turbo 1.4 engine and transmission is actually better than weak ND, they use NC which is solid.

My wife has only and will only buy Toyota’s. Honestly, I’ve found most of their vehicles pretty boring, yet super reliable. Pretty sure 86/BRZ is not boring.

Yeah, I honestly think the RF is overpriced. And the ST Miata. Great car, but overpriced unless you buy used. The newer ND’s have depreciated pretty hard. Another thing I love about my Jeep, I could drive it 4-5 years and still get great money back.

Lol, that’s what many say but there’s many taller guys who drive and love their ND’s.

Yeah, even a couple of hardcore MT Youtuber reviewers were very impressed with ‘17 AT’s. Regardless of transmission, I’m just pleasantly surprised how cheap you can buy one brand new. I’d probably go base and put my own wheels and later upgrade interior and whatever else.

I test drove the AT 86 before buying my car, and it was a lot more fun than I expected. I can't compare it to the Abarth/Miata AT, but for the 86/BRZ the AT does downshift very quickly when you want it to in manual/paddle mode. When you don't want to mess around with the paddles the AT is a pretty smooth experience. If you poke around on the forum a bit, you will find people who actually track these cars with AT and still have a lot of fun.

A friend of mine bought a 2017 Miata (non RF), and I did ride in it for a bit. I'm 6'0, and I didn't have any issues with headroom, but it did feel just a bit too small for my liking, kind of like a shoe that's a bit too tight. The Miata also has zero storage if you want to DD it. It doesn't have any real trunk space (Miata comes with a fix-a-flat kit, 86/BRZs have a spare tire and manage to still have a decent amount of trunk space), and in the 86/BRZ you can put down the back seats in the 86/BRZ to haul bulkier items. Since this is my only car, I never once regretted my purchase, whereas my friend has had to deal with issues trying to fit his girlfriend and shopping/groceries in his Miata at the same time.

Some actually race the AT.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69139

I find it hard to believe that a tall guy can fit into a RF while wearing a helmet.

Not everybody tracks their car.

Maybe funwheeldrive always wears a helmet, like that kid that lived down the street who had a soft area in his skull.

Having read some of the threads he started I suspect it is a different material.


https://i2.wp.com/www.paulduane.net/...size=320%2C240

I have epilepsy so I probably should wear a helmet.

If you don't track your Miata at least once you are doing something wrong. /opinion

Shots fired.

Pretty sure it's in the contract you sign for your car that you are required to take the car on a track. It's also in the owners manual on page 86.

Unless you want warranty coverage.

Look, pretty sure you are correct. I don’t plan on tracking car anyway, dd, fun get around twisty car. Not opposed to it ever, but no plans to.

I personally don’t want to track a 35k car, just me I guess. I don’t trust others. If I really wanted to track a Miata I wouldn’t do it with RF, it would be older Miata.

Nice read, thx. I killed time last night reading that instead of doing house crap. I’m thinking AT in newer BRZ is quite a bit better than ND’s from what I read. The Fiat has the turbo unlike Miata, so the AT is better in that vs. Miata. I live in Austin and traffic here sucks pretty dang bad. Before anyone here says it, I already know there’s many who live in larger cities and drive stick daily, and that is absolutely your choice. Traffic pisses me off enough, not sure I’m wanting to add more to have to focus on.

That said, I will test both eventually and report back. I also like increased mpg in AT being as I drive a Wrangler for my other vehicle and I’d like this vehicle to be good on gas. Filled up Jeep last night, ouch. Prices rising. I don’t want to pay 3-4$ in a Jeep.

Can't quote.
The At tranny in these cars is not some off the shelf unit that is used anyplace else. It was designed and built specifically for this car. Contrary to what many of the "MT is life" crowd may think it is not your granny's Corolla transmission!
Interesting reading on the tranny development here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5274

I had the Fiat 500 Abarth, and loved it... HOWEVER... quality control is an issue. The hood didn't line up properly, among other things and the paint is like paper. The seating position for such a compact car was high and the short shift kit sucked. I imagine the Spider sits a little lower. If they're the same seats, they're not particularly comfy. It sounded the business though, stock. My BRZ in stock form sounded like an angry sewing machine. My kid (9) hates the BRZ back seat, loved the Fiat. It's really low in the back and not easy to peek out of that tiny window, especially when tinted.

Anyway, good luck! Go test drive everything and remember the devil's in the details!

I lived in Austin for two years, so I'm familiar with the traffic. It's ridiculous.

But I have a manual BRZ and an automatic Jeep, and I found the manual to be much better in heavy traffic than the automatic. With the auto, I had to have my foot on the gas or the brake pretty much all the time. Traffic was never the right speed where I could just coast in the Jeep. In contrast, with the manual, I could take it out of gear and coast slower than idle speed without having to ride the brake or accelerator. Or I could put it in first and creep along as low as 6 MPH in gear, which the auto wouldn't do without speeding up and forcing me to brake. I had so many more options with the manual that it was actually less work and less frustrating.

The only situation in which I have ever wished I had an auto was going uphill in stop and go traffic on the I-10 bridge over the Mississippi outside Baton Rouge. That probably took 1000 miles off the clutch and was annoying as hell. But I never had that problem in Austin, even with the hills it has, because the hill approaches weren't nearly as long before traffic would move again.

Maybe things are different for you, but I just don't see heavy traffic as a valid reason on its own to avoid the manual. I think a lot of potential new owners who don't have a lot of experience driving a manual see these comments and become afraid of the manual unnecessarily.

The Spider is manufactured by Mazda. It's a Fiat engine, but you can't really judge the quality control for the rest of it based on other Fiat shitboxes.

my weekend (AKA no fiat motors!)

"Ok, haven't messed with the fiat but some research has yielded the likely cause of the issue. The intake valves are run by an insanely complicated hydraulic system run off oil pressure, if the actuator fails, it holds the valves open and snags the spark plug on the way by one the piston bumps them, the mulit-air valve system is supposed to have a fail safe mode to prevent valve damage if an actuator fucks up, but I've read a couple accounts of what it did to you (me), all resulting in valve failure and a dead on road scenario. Also, the only warning of multiair system failure before it happens is occasional rough cold starts"

My BRZ was my first manual car I owned and it was easy to get used to. The clutch was the only real learning curve I had, but it's light so it doesn't wear you down while learning. I loved the shifter because it was easy to tell I was in gear, and what gear I was in, without having to really think about it.