Strange steering feel
 

Hey guys,

About two weeks ago the steering on my 2016 FR-S started to feel really loose and sloppy. It feels like I have to turn the wheel a lot more than before to make turns and there seems to be noticeably more body roll in corners. The car doesn't pull to any side.

The car has 27k miles, I bought it at 25.5k CPO and it felt tight as a drum until recently. Car is bone stock. I brought it to Toyota yesterday but they said "the tech drove it at it felt normal to him," but it definitely feels bad to me. It also feels like the ride is mushier/softer than before. I used to feel every little thing on the road (which I liked) and now it feels like a Lexus floating over everything. Tires are Nokian entyre 225s with plenty of tread left - they came with the car.

I'm bringing the car back next week when their more experience tech is in, but in the meantime I'm looking for possible answers. Does anyone have any ideas for what might be the problem here? Thanks everyone.

What are the tire pressures?

My experience with those tires is they go particularly mushy as pressure goes low. I hate the way they drive - actually feel worse to me than the Nokian WRG3 on the same car.

Go out and bounce each corner a few times.
Will it teeter totter around one axis more than another?
Just to see if one of the shock absorbers isn't anymore.
That corner will just have the spring holding it up and going "Boing!"

Simple check to see if you're sane.

Also: High pressure now in mid-to-so cal.
That can significantly change the relative pressure in the tires.

I'll check the shocks tomorrow, but Toyota said the did a visual inspection of the suspension and everything seemed fine. Tire pressure is at 38 psi front and 39 psi rear currently.

38 psi front, 39 psi rear.

Yeah, I wasn't totally sold on the tires even before this issue. They came with the car, but I'll definitely be looking for something else when they wear out. Lemme know if you have any suggestion for tires for when that time comes.

Your car may be due for an alignment ...... ;)


humfrz

Just to confirm, that's where they are now? If you haven't checked them after the steering feel went away, do so.

As for tire suggestions... forget all season tires unless there's a particular reason (though some may be 3.5 season and good enough for a daily). And check the wheel/tire section for far more information and lots of 'best thing ever' opinions on tires all over the map.

Yeah, I just checked this morning 38.5 all around. Yeah, I live in California where we have 1.5 seasons pretty much, so as soon as these are done I'll go to summer tires. I have Conti ExtremeContacts on my Boxster and those things feel amazing.

Hopefully Toyota will at least check the alignment specs for free under warranty.. if not then I might look into some good alignment shops. I might swap the front and rear tires today too - see if that does anything.

I suppose there's a chance you had an endlink or swaybar break or something break, though I can't imagine that requiring you turn the wheel more. Either way, I'd say getting it somewhere they can put it up on a lift and inspect is the best way forward. If you take it to the dealer and it has some warranty coverage, specify the problem; let them explore solutions.

Hey so I put the car up on jack stands today to see if I could see anything.

I noticed that my front sway bar seems to move in and out of the bushings with just minimal force - here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=I3mh1Rga_NM

I'm not sure if this is normal, but that's the only thing I could really feel was "loose."

I also rotated the tires front to back and vice versa, but I feel like it actually made things worse. Now it feels like my rear end wants to slide out easily / is wobbly. I'm 99% sure I did everything up correctly - I lifted the car by the front jack point and the rear diff, made all the lug nuts snug before dropping it, and then torqued them to 100 ft/lbs on the ground. I hope I didn't mess something up, but I don't know why it would be worse after the rotation.

Stop screwing around and get it on an alignment rack.

Welp, I can appreciate your tenacity in trying to figure out what's wrong with your car ....... but, I have found that there is a time to give up "looking" yourself and take the car into an alignment shop.

Now, ol @strat61caster is running out of patience with you. And you are on the verge of getting a :slap: from me.

Even IF you find a loose/broken piece and fix/replace it ....... most likely you are still going to have the alignment done at a shop anyway.

Whatever is going on with your car sounds like it's a serious condition, that could cause a mechanical failure.

END OF LECTURE

:D


humfrz

not you issue, but I believe is should be 89 ft/lbs.

Yup. The sway bars are designed to float like that.
It allows the bar to twist and apply load across the width of the car and move slightly while the suspension changes geometry compared side to side.
The end link drops will account for most of the geometry but not all of it.

I don't think that's the issue you should be concentrating on.

I did 100 because I have to use a spline adapter for my lug nuts that doesn't directly snap onto the torque wrench, rather it has to be torqued by a 3/4" socket, so I figured that the actual torque would be lesser than the amount inputted on the torque wrench, so I tried to account for that. Not sure how accurate this is, but I figured a little bit snugger is better than a little looser - plus I'm pretty sure most crappy shops just air wrench them on way past 89 ft/lbs.

Ok, that makes sense. I wasn't sure since I tried to see if there was anything obviously loose, and that was the only thing that moved. I'm starting to think it's an alignment issue - I have an appointment on Wednesday to get the alignment looked at. Thank you.

Actually, the correct torque is better than the incorrect torque. The size of the socket is irrelevant. If your spline adapter is not offset from the axis of rotation of the wrench, the set torque is the actual torque, unless your wrench is fubar.

Yea, but other people do it wrong, so ok if I do it wrong.

Over tightening lug nuts on aluminium rims isn't good.

That's not how torque wrenches and adapters work... adapter or not, the torque at the wrench is the torque on the lug. The only time this would be different is if the adapter is offset to increase/decrease leverage, or if it's a torque multiplying wrench (internally geared).

Ah, gotcha. Sorry, I must have misunderstood something - thank you for explaining it, I'll fix it when I get home today.

Thanks for the explanation - I misunderstood something I read at some point, but thanks for clearing it up. I'll fix it when I get home today.

What do you mean by this?

Alright everyone, so I took the general consensus advice - "stop being a dumbass and get an alignment." I went to a local shop with good reviews and had them align the car. Only thing that was off was toe, which he brought back into spec.

After the alignment, the car still feels the same to me. It feels like the steering is overly light and uncommunicative at low speeds, and there is close to an inch of play in either direction before the wheels feel like they actually respond to the steering input. At this point, I've had Toyota look at, and I've had the alignment. Could it just come down to tires? Nokian entyre 225s - they have a ton of tread left, but they are all-season tires and probably not the stickiest.

Or, conversely, what else could I look at replacing/upgrading to make the steering more direct and less light? Would steering rack bushings be a good idea? Stiffer sway bar? Again, thanks for all the help. My alignment specs are below in case anyone wanted to see them.

https://imgur.com/a/xO9Ow

Well now, speedyspaghetti, it's good you had an alignment done on your car......:thumbsup:

Now, hopefully, between the dealership and the alignment shop, they thoroughly checked all of the suspension parts for anything that may be lose .... ?? Also, hopefully the checked the steering rack for excessive play ..??

So, let's review the tires. You had two new ones put on ..... right? And they are both on either the front or back ..... right ..?

Are all 4 tires the same size .. ?? Are they all the same type ..?? Are they all the same brand ..??

If not, what are they.

Let's hope we can help you figure out what's going on with your car.


humfrz

Hey - both Toyota and the alignment shop checked the suspension and the steering rack, neither said they found anything. However, I really doubt Toyota did a thorough job because it sounds like they just had a technician drive it, he said it felt fine to him, and then told me to pick it up.

All tires are original to the car when I bought it used at 25k miles, it now has 27k miles, They are all Nokian Entyre 225/47/17. All I did was rotate the rear tires to the front and the front tires to the back. The tires are asymmetrical, all season. I don't know exactly when they were put on, but they seem to have plenty of tread left.

Thanks again for all the help and patience... really appreciate it.

225 on a 7" wheel will feel mushy compared to a 215

Also I can definitely move my steering wheel about an inch before it really starts loading up and moving the wheels at low speed, you've probably gotten comfortable with the car so it doesn't feel as responsive anymore. Hop in another car next chance you get, I bet it improves your opinion of the 86.

You can also safely run a sportier summer tire year round with a stiffer sidewall to improve steering response, I say go back to a 215, there's a reason it was chosen by the factory.

Edit: getting used to the car also explains the body roll, your more comfortable so you're subconsciously driving it faster, you may also think you're running out of grip in tires that look fine, same phenomenon, you've become comfortable with the limit so it seems like the limit is reduced compared to before. I've gone through the same thing and junked the oe tires early when they still had some life left in hindsight, and I have talked to a few others with similar experiences.

First time you hop in a car like this it seems like it can do anything, after enough seat time you find out where the limits are.

My thought from the other side of the country is mushy/squirmy tires that aren't the ideal width for your wheel and you're just now noticing it more after the post-car buying honeymoon period.

Tires will have a much larger difference than any other upgrade you buy, so get tires that match your goals first.

- Andrew

Well now, speedyspaghetti, I'm all out of ideas on what may be "wrong" with your car.

I'm going along with @strat61caster and @Racecomp Engineering , in that the handling characteristic of your car is just what that size and type of tire does on your car.

So, I reckon you should just get used to it, or buy new tires ...... ;)


humfrz

Yeah, honestly, I think you're right. I hate to admit it, but nothing really happened before I started feeling it, and it was about a month into my ownership of the car, I probably just started over-thinking it. I'll chalk it up to tires/getting used to it and look to replace the tires when they wear out a bit more. I might just go in and check torque on steering/suspension components, but I imagine your theory is accurate. Thank you for the help and being patient with me... just one of those annoying things... I think I also go paranoid because I had a similar feeling with my Mazdaspeed3 after about a year of owning it, but whenever my friends drove it, they said it felt amazing.

Haha, yeah I'm starting to think I'm just overreacting. I don't trust Toyota at all (they are incredibly rude at the El Camino dealership, except for service manager Adrian... in case anyone is local), but the alignment shop was super thorough and honest, and you guys have been awesome. I'll look into summer tires in the proper size next chance I get. Thank you again for everything.

Andrew - this makes complete sense, thank you. Probably a combination of A. all-season tires, B. wrong size, C. cold weather, D. my over-thinking. I'll look into some good summer tires when it warms up and these current ones wear out. Any suggestions from anyone?

There's a huge range of "good" summer tires out there so you really need to decide how far you want to go. I've been happy with Firestone Indy 500s as an inexpensive improvement over stock but I know other people locally who didn't like them (but they were coming from higher performance tires) and I'll probably go with something grippier for my next set. Michelin Pilot Super Sports are a very popular next step up in performance. Some people will go further up the performance spectrum with something like the Bridgestone RE71s. There will be tradeoffs with cost, treadwear, sidewall stiffness (both plusses and minuses there), and noise so you need to decide what is really important to you.

Well, first off, I'd stay away from the brand of tire that you have.

Second off, for average driving, as mentioned before, I'd suggest you go back to the OEM 215 size tires.

Since you live in Los Gatos (I lived in the Almaden area for 7 years), and as long as you stay out of the Sierras in the wintertime, I would suggest running summer type tires the year around.

As far as what brand, for average driving, I don't think you need the most expensive ones out there. Any brand name, medium priced tire should be just fine.


humfrz

Yeah, I had never heard of Nokian... they're like $60 each on Amazon, so I don't think they are the most performance oriented tire. They're comfy, but not really satisfying in the twisty bits. Luckily the tires for our cars are relatively small and a squared set up... my Boxsters staggered 225/265s are another story... I'll have to do some research once that time comes.

Thanks again. Almaden area is awesome - I'd love to buy a house there or near Los Gatos, but housing prices have gotten even more ridiculous here recently. New townhomes built about 5 miles away from Los Gatos in Cupertino are going for $2.3 million... it's insane.

You could check the local classifieds for some OEM tires. They aren't the grippiest, but they have good response and feel from the driver's seat and they last. Super cheap on the classifieds with or without the OEM wheels. Shame you're so far away, I'm selling mine!

Outside of that...Michlein Pilot Super Sports are often recommended as a good sporty street tire. The Continental ExtremeContactSport is also a solid choice. Both have good grip and response that's a slight step down from track and auto-x oriented tires, but they aren't super noisey and they'll last a decent amount of miles. Plenty of other options, and a little research will go a long way.

- Andrew

Yep, the second house I had built (in a subdivision) near Coleman & Almaden Expy, I paid $33,000 for (3 bed, 2 ba, 2,000 sq ft). That was back in 1971.

Now, Zillow tells me that it's worth $1.4 million. Hell, I couldn't afford to go back and buy the first house I had built in CA. .........:(

That one I paid $21,000 for, brand new (1300 sq ft) in 1968. Yep, $1 down for earnest money and using the GI bill for financing. Zillow says it's worth $850,000 now.

Ahhhhh....... the old days ......:sigh:



humfrz

Haha yeah that sounds about right... my family moved here in the mid 90s, and while it was already way different than I imagine it was in the 60s and 70s, I still remember orchards near the parks and libraries, lots of open space, knowing neighbors... now it's different. It's still home for me, but it's changed a lot. I go back and forth on whether I want to move or stick it out until I can afford a down payment and then have no disposable income after my mortgage payment... :sigh:

Did you serve in Vietnam? I'm a high school history teacher - if you don't mind, I'd love to hear about your experience sometime. Obviously over PM or whatever, and I totally understand if this is too much to ask for, but my students never really seem to understand that the events in our history actually impacted real people just like them... anyway, thanks for all the help. It's been super.

Yep, California has changed a lot since the 1960s ....... like I said, I couldn't afford to move back there.

Although I was on active duty in the Army from 1966-1968, I was never sent to Vietnam. However, all soldiers trained for and lived that era.

I think you should ask Santa for some new tires for your car ....... life is too damn short to drive on tires that you don't like, especially on a sports car ......;)


humfrz