Your ideas for future sports car market
 

If you could decide how the future sports car market should look like in the future, or say 2015. Which cars would you add to the market?

Ill focus more on the japanse market. And since I am living in a country where CO2, and HP costs huge amount of money Ill focus more on low emissions. Im not going to mention all cars here.. (genesis, mustang, 370Z, WRX, Exige.. etc)

Toyota MR2
Cheap, Roof (or targa), MR, 2 seater, LSD, 150bhp, 1,4l turbo, 970kg
This would be the modern day 1. gen MR2. And the only cheap and affordable MR sports car on the market with some power. Should have som go-kart feel to it.
(the affordable version of Lotus Elise and Alfa Romeo 4C)

http://imagehostinghosting.com/di-1313060333231.jpg
http://autombem.com/wp-content/uploa...yota-mr2-2.jpg
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Mazda MX 5/Alfa Romeo xxx.. (ND, 4. generation)
The cheap, fun, lightweight and affordable 2 seater cabriolet. 1100kg, RWD
Low power: 1,4l NA, 130hp
High Power: 1,4l Turbo, 170hp
Sport package available for both cars. Including LSD, lighter wheels, stiffer and lower suspension.. etc..

Keep some MX5 design, but add some stylish alfa design..
http://www.imotortimes.com/data/imag...ta-concept.jpg

Or add old-school ferrari 2 seater design instead of the modern look. Retro is COOL!
http://forums.bit-tech.net/picture.p...ictureid=11352
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THE 86 FAMILY

GT86/BRZ/FR-S - (Coupe ,same as today, GT86/BRZ/FR-S)
FR, 2l NA, LSD, 200hp, 2+2 Coupe, 1250kg (with much equipment)

GT86/BRZ/FR-S - Hatchback
Like the normal coupe, but with a longer roofline and hatchback trunk. Add 25kg.
Should also be available in different "trim levels" like the TRD/STI, R etc..

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...1&d=1303524649

http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/4...uesubhatch.jpg

GT86/BRZ/FR-S - L
L for low power. 175hp and "torque tuned" for less HP and less CO2. Only available to certain countries.

GT86/BRZ/FR-S TRD/STI
2l with supercharger, 250hp, 1285kg, big brakes, lowered 0,8 inch... New body panels. Not just bolt on plastic. Some lightweight materials.
http://media.techeblog.com/images/subaru_brz_sti.jpg


GT86/BRZ/FR-S - R
Race-edition
2l NA, 230HP, 1180kg, better brakes, lowered 1 inch. High use of lightweight materials, but still comfortable enough for the street with a proper interior. More racing look.
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Honda/Nissan/Mazda sports car wagon thingy :)
2+2 seater hatchback/wagon style, with some hint of coupe lines.. (Design wise, thinking of cars like 86 hatchback above, Ferrari FF, BMW Z3/Z4 M Coupe) FR, 1285kg, LSD, 1.8l turbo 180hp,
The turbocharged and more practical rival for the 86. with larger back seats, but not that much luggage space. Could fit a lot with seats down. Easy to tune..
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Toyota Supra/BMW Z5
Collaboration between Toyota and BMW. Forget back seats. Make it small-ish and lightweight, but also powerful and agile.
Supra with simple interior and little luxuries.
BMW with totally redesigned high quality interior.
One normal edition, and one insane edition of both.

2 seater, Targa style roof, LSD, 2l Inline 4 with 2x twinscroll. 280hp. FR
1300kg Supra
1350kg Z5

Toyota Supra R /BMW Z5 M
400 hp, 3l Inline 6 with 2x twinscroll turbos, normal coupe style hatchback roof
1370kg Supra R
1420kg Z5 M

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/BimmerR/Z5.jpg
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Honda NSX
Hybrid stuff, supersportscar. 2 seater
http://s1.aecdn.com/images/news/2012...va-42423-7.jpg
(personally I would prefer a NA, MR car, but if there should be a new NSX it would probably be a hybrid, and I would not mind seeing that. It would fit the NSX name better. New Sportscar eXperimental)

This is what i would like to see:

Mazda RX9

3 rotor Twin Turbo 300HP 1280 KG'S 2+2
Body: Resembling the RX7 which is the best RX gen ever but a bit more modern.
Low Power: 300hp
High power: RX9 Mazdaspeed 400hp (should be able to compete with the upcoming M3)


Nissan S16

1200-1300 KGS 1.6T , 2.5 NA, and 2.5T engines
A modern version S15 with pricing just underneath the 370z ( btw 370z should be made a bit more upscale to compate with the M3) at a more reasonable price but this way the s16 would be at the bottom of the lineup followed by the 370z and then at the higher end the GT-R.
Low Power: 1.6T producing 160hp / 200hp NA 2.5 engine from the Spec V
High Power: 300 HP turbo 2.5 Spec V engine


Plus i would like to see al the other cars you just mentioned!!

Great cars!

I was thinking on adding a new RX7.
But the wankel engines seems to be obsolete when it comes to modern day co2 emmisions. Oil consumtion and durability may also be questioned. Im a bit skeptical to wankel engines these days. But if they can make it work and have low CO2 emmisions. Bring it on! :) Love the wankel consept, and also the love the low body style of the RX7 which is possible due to the small and low engine.

Id like to see a sporty but also practical lightweight RWD drivers car.
That is where the 86 hatchback, or the Nissan/Honda/Mazda collaboration comes to my mind.
I would throw my money on that in an instant!
Lightweight Sporty RWD car, should not have to mean unpractical car.

BMW should make the 1-series into the 2- series. And make 1-series cars smaller, sportier, and lighter with LSD as an option. More like the E30 used to be..
(unfortunately BMW might be using FWD in future 1-series)

Picture below is from the latest production F22 1-series, 3-door with M-package. Looks good from this angle. Not that good that good from other angles, especially not from the front..
http://s3.bimmerfile.com.s3.amazonaw...49_highRes.jpg
Wins the award for best practical small RWD car car in my book. But I want sportier, lighter, and could compromise a little practicality and comforts. + better looks/other headlights..

Speaking about future cars. Current 1M coupe is out of production. In 2015 we need a new 1M Coupe based on todays 1-series. Oh.. and make a CSL version of it too! :)
The new car could look something like this, but more agressive and with even wider fenders..
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ness-small.jpg

I would be on a 300+hp modern shooting brake like white on rice. Before the BRZ came along, the S54 M Coupe was at the top of my list for new car candidacy. If they come up with a turbo BRZ Brake, or a 135i/1SerieseMCoupe Brake, I'd be throwing money at the dealership until they handed me keys.

I was more interested in something less than FR-S.

1.5L
120 hp
RWD
2500 lbs
160" in length
2+2
$20k
0-60 in 9 secs
Something that no one would bother to race against, but still is fun to drive.

Since I already got an FR-S, I wouldn't get it to replace FR-S.
But if that was there at the time when FR-S was released, then I would've chosen that instead.

Wish Suzuki bring back Cappuccino

This. You don't have the latest build for that though. Someone pointed out the huge blind spot so there was another one. BTW, you didn't credit the designer. ;)

I was expecting this actually but it didn't happen.

I think Mazda should merge the RX-7, MX-5, and Alfa Romeo to save money.

Euro Inspired Japanese sports cars - OK

Euro Collaborated Japanese sports cars - Please god no. If the Supra wasn't wallet unfriendly enough already, having BMW hand in it would make it even worse.

And cx5, it has to be fuel efficient...

WTF is an "Alpha" Romeo?

Company that is related to Pherrari?

oops alfa

Wow you rendered most of those yourself? The hatchback 86 had me drooling man..

I never liked hatchbacks .. but I like the low angle hatchbacks :X

Huge credit and respect to the designer, and the people behind the car if several... It is genious!
Not sure who was behind it tough.. The photoshop thread is full full of pictures, and I saw several people posting stuff related to the car and design.
Please, tell me who was behind it, and post latest version.

I would be all over a 86 hatchback. Especially in "L" edition.

Decreasing 25hp and 20g CO2. Would knock off about 10700USD on the sales price of 75000USD in Norway (land of extreme engine taxes)...


Not that I could afford a new Supra anyway. But I would not be surprised to see Toyota working together with BMW if making a new Supra.
-Toyota are already working together with Euro car makers on small cars. (Peugeot 106, Citroën C1, Toyota Aygo.. Basically same car..)
-Toyota will work together with Peugeot and Citroën on the new Hiace. (Fresh news! Source)
-Toyota and Subaru are working on the GT86/BRZ.
-Toyota and BMW have already signed a deal to collaborate on sports car and EV technology. (news still less than a month old) Source

So im guessing we will see something eco friendly electric/hybrid stuff sports car.. or a new supra or something with angine from BMW.. :)
Old supra used straight six. I would say BMW is at the top of the game when it comes to straight six engines today. And if going for a strong and efficient 4 sylinder, BMW is already there with their 2 liters engines..

BMWs 1,6l turbo in the Cooper S is also shared with Peugeot and Citroën. Have not heard any complaining there. (should not be, since it is 2012 international engine of the year). If we should see a new supra, it could still be a car with the majority of Toyota parts. But they would probably take an engine from BMW since it would cost a lot for Toyota to make a brand new and efficient engine (and gearbox) just for a new Supra.
Todays car market is hard, so seems more and more car manufacturers are gathered under the same roof, or collaborating on cars and projects.

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I think it is one of the best looking hot hatches out there.
:wub:

Oh you didn't know? Ichitaka made those. I lost all my copies but there was a thread here where he had a coupe with a ducktail, convertible, and showed off the newest version of the hatchback.

Toyota should hire Ichitaka and start making hatchback edition now!
ASAP! :)

LOL thanks!

Don't worry, I've gave targa & hatch 86 to Tada-san.
These ones
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7095/6...a14b4f49_c.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7106/7...1bbf24a6_c.jpg

& the duckbill ones you're talking bout is this one right?
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8154/7...39ec1a05_c.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8434/7...46cb37d3_c.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8431/7...55a7fd08_c.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7134/7...14045196_c.jpg

I love the targa look. Brings out the inner Fast & The Furious in me

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8431/7...55a7fd08_c.jpg
that's how I wish the 'trunk' opened, was always my favorite sporty/sports car setup

RX-9
http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/cro...upe_600x0w.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...2/new-mx-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...lotusmazda.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...l-Copy-Sig.jpg
Skyactiv Direct Injection Twin Turbo Rotary Engine
MX-5/Alfa Romeo chassis

Nissan S16 Silvia/160sx
Lightweight rear wheel drive coupe using Nissan Juke 1.6L engine mounted longitudinally
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz9t1u5F6Uo"]Nissan's 1.6 L DIG-T (Direct Injection Gasoline Turbo-charged) engine - YouTube[/ame]

Oh I missed this thread.
I'm fairly sure a new rotary engine will have to be single rotor, as there is no way to improve the combustion chamber shape much. So scaling it up to improve surface area to volume ratio would be the only way to avoid the massive heat rejection rotaries typically experience. Luckily, rotaries are super easy to balance, just stick a counterweight into the flywheel assembly. It would be interesting if Mazda tried to mess around with "variable duration" ports. Rotaries are also a good candidate for exhaust turbogenerators.

If they come up with a say ~1L single rotor engine that doesn't guzzle gas and oil and break down all the time, that could be something really great. An MX-5 with that sort of powerplant would be something to save up for.

A new MR2 would be awesome, but they really really need a 6 speed gearbox this time.

I'm more interested in the smaller cars, don't much care for the nuclear powered tanks. The C7 Corvette hopefully will have a less retarded displacement and hence less mass.

http://img2.netcarshow.com/Infiniti-...llpaper_01.jpghttp://www.lincah.com/wp-content/upl...de-588x394.jpg

*sigh*

WAIT! Someone is selling a nuclear powered tank! Where do I sign up. I've always wanted a MR. Fusion Reactor-Sports and/or Barely Radioactive Zone vehicle!

"Where we're going we don't need roads!"

Here is a picture of Bruce willis testing the future Fusion Reactor-Sports. Looks FAAAST!!
http://www.hometheaterspot.com/fbbup...ementbd204.JPG

Yupp.. Future car design right there...
http://files.technologist.geblogs.co...nt-590x250.jpg

Just wanted to let you know that the Mk1 MR2 was supercharged not turbo. That was the second gen.


[QUOTE=RaceR;330109]
If you could decide how the future sports car market should look like in the future, or say 2015. Which cars would you add to the market?

Ill focus more on the japanse market. And since I am living in a country where CO2, and HP costs huge amount of money Ill focus more on low emissions. Im not going to mention all cars here.. (genesis, mustang, 370Z, WRX, Exige.. etc)

Toyota MR2
Cheap, Roof (or targa), MR, 2 seater, LSD, 150bhp, 1,4l turbo, 970kg
This would be the modern day 1. gen MR2. And the only cheap and affordable MR sports car on the market with some power. Should have som go-kart feel to it.
(the affordable version of Lotus Elise and Alfa Romeo 4C)

http://imagehostinghosting.com/di-1313060333231.jpg__________________________________________________ _

would have made it more practical as well

Oh.. was not aware of a superchared version. I could only remember the 1. gen MR2 with NA engine. (used google and learned the supercharged version was available for the US market)
But since everything modern these days use turbo for efficiency (and cost?), I would think a modern day MR2 would use turbo over NA, or supercharger.
I used to own the MR-S spyder. And it could defenetly use some more torque. It was a fun car tough! :)


Yupp. I have always been a fan of the hatchback roof. Even on coupes. Basically same design, more practical.

Audi S4 is S/C right? Turbo being "more efficient" is only at high loads on most engines, and you trade response for that.

I would gladly have the response of a supercharged engine! I love NA. But they usually have to be 2l+ for them to have some decent torque.
I am no fan of turbo lag, even tough modern day engines are not that bad. But I like efficiency of turbo engines (due to extreme co2 taxes). And I like the torque of turbocharged engines. We have HP taxes here, not torque taxes. Torquey and highly efficient engines = WIN in terms of bang for you buck.

The 1.4-litre TSI Twincharger from VW seems great tough!
Using both S/C and turbo. 180hp, 250nm, 139g co2 in a VW polo with DSG (international engine of the year 2012)
1,6L in Peugeot RCZ. 200hp, 270nm, 155g co2 (turbo, international engine of the year 2012. Shared with Mini Cooper and Citroen)
GT86 in comparison. 200hp, 200nm, 181g co2 (2l na)
BMW 328I, 2L, I4 . 245hp, 350nm, 149g co2 (turbo, international engine of the year 2012.)

Based on numbers above, I think we could see a modern 1,4l turbo with 150hp,220nm, and 127g co2 if put in a lightweight MR2 with say Primacy HP tires.
If car manufacturers could do those numbers with SC only than bring it on!
But, I do not know of S/C engines that can match the numbers of the mentioned turbo engines above. Do you?

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According to international reports, Volkswagen is thinking of cutting the 1.4TSI twincharger engine from production. The engine, both turbocharged and supercharged, is said to be too complex and too expensive for Volkswagen to continue making.

The engine has been praised for its torquey yet powerful nature since its debut in 2007, offering low-down torque off the mark thanks to its supercharger, but also presenting plenty of peak power once revved thanks to the turbo unit. Volkswagen is apparently now working on a new turbocharged engine to replace the popular unit.

Volkswagen engineers have reportedly said that using a new single turbocharged engine could keep costs down without sacrificing engine performance or efficiency. The new engine is likely to produce similar if not higher power and torque figures yet still consume a relatively small amount of fuel.
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Seems like all small good and efficient (small) displacement engines today use turbo. The older Cooper S models, pre 2006 used S/C. Then they switched to turbo. HP went up, consumption went down. Engine mentioned above are also used by Peugeot and Citroen with different variations. The reason for changing form S/C to Turbo was cost, and fuel efficiency.

VW currently use both turbo and S/C on their 1.4l twincharger. Going for turbo only in the future. Not S/C only..

Some years ago BMW were all about NA and throttle response. They could have gone the S/C route (what I consider the throttle response route) or the turbo route (what I assume is the the efficiency route).
Today all BMWs i know of use turbo. Except the M3. But next generation will get turbos.

I am no engineer. I just see what happens in the industry.

I shopped those wheels on it... right? lol that was sooo long ago! :w00t:

loved this:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...1&d=1314916843

http://www.pbase.com/mr_seize/image/...4/original.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/vnnskn.jpg

But it isn't more efficient because the toyotas of the time all had their supercharger on an a//c clutch to turn them on only when there was enough throttle given. plus there is much less maintenance with a super because they also had their own oil supply separate from the engine's.

I think so...

Seriously... some shop need to make the front part of the concept car. Hood, bumper, fender kits. IF someone did really make it and just say around $4k~$6k, I'm totally willing to fork it out

What are you trying to say? Turbo isn't more efficient and cost effective compared to SC, therefore all engineers from several car manufacturers have it wrong when going for turbo?
Or they have no idea what they are doing when going from S/C to turbo?


Loving the pictures/car design above! :)

What do you mean by "efficient"? Fuel economy tests never run in the peak load range where turbos win out.

I think the deal with turbo vs. sc is that throttle response is not important at all in most cars, and because a turbo is slightly more efficient at full load, you get better numbers within in the same design specifications for the engine.

Unfortunately, fuel economy testing and real world fuel economy are very different things, and most drivers are completely clueless about how fuel economy works (admittedly, there's a lot behind it).

Eaton makes a good case for superchargers and fuel economy, they have some pretty slides about it. Current bypass valve controls could be a little better to improve the fuel economy advantage a bit more.

What i mean to say is that at the time there was a good chance that the mr2's super was more efficient fuel-wise at the time than a turbo because once a turbo spools up an some one cruises at that rpm, the turbo stays on and spooling. The super in my mr2 turns off when maintaining a steady speed. it is only running when there is a lot of throttle given and a computer senses a need for boost. I could be wrong about the turbo but the turbo in my Hyundai Scoupe was always on when I was on the free way and made my 1.5 ltr very hungry for a small car. My MR2 on the other hand gets for better milage and has a 1.6 ltr engine with more power and is 4 years older. I think that with some thought that supers could be made to work just as well as a turbo though. I didn't mean to offend you though.

Yea in short, you want the turbo to spool quickly and at low rpm for good punch, so you put a small restrictive turbine on it. But then when you're just cruising around, that restriction wastes energy, even with a fancy electronic wastegate that can stay open.

On a lossless load control type valvetrain (one that controls intake duration, namely Valvematic, Valvetronic, VVEL, or Multiair), a turbo helps part load efficiency because you can reduce the intake volume with nearly no losses, but the turbo will "pre-pressurize" the charge by recycling some exhaust blowdown. This is why the BMW 335 gets basically the same gas mileage as the 328 despite having lower compression and much more power. Throttle lag is still a problem though.

The best setup would be a variable drive centrifugal SC + turbine hooked either directly to the crankshaft or to an electric motor, and a fancy valvetrain. When you don't have the fancy valvetrain, IMO positive displacement SC makes the most sense, but that's just me.