Too Late to Turbo?
 

Really looking at turbocharging my 2013 FRS which has been my daily for almost 3 years. Don't want to do anything too crazy, just around 300whp and I'll be happy. I'm looking into the SBD 500x turbo kit paired with OFT tuning (I already have the tablet) I've already done alot of research on the kit so I doubt you guys can sway my opinion on which manufacturer to go with :). The only worrisome factor is the mileage my current engine has, it has over 105k, mainly just highway at 70mph with some spirited runs here and there. I certainly don't want to boost an engine that's on it's way out. What are some things to look for before boosting the car? Compression test? I've already had the timing chain and guides checked at 60k and they were perfect. I've only had to put a couple coils in it, and I change the oil every 3k. What do you think? Too late to boost this thing?

Nah go for it

"not too crazy"

+85% increase in power from factory block

:bellyroll:

Edit: serious advice, budget to buy a replacement motor, if it holds then good, minor repairs fall within budget, if not oh well toss replacement motor in and decide if you go back to NA or keep doing a turbo in the process. I say this regardless of your engine mileage and maintenance although replacing coil packs to me means you beat on it pretty hard there's literally no data to say whether these things are solid up to 100k, 150k, 200k, or 300k of abuse.

If you can't afford to slap a turbo on AND replace a motor, then you can't afford to slap a turbo on imho

There was a thread on here where one guy said he had like 180K miles on the car, 80 of them boosted, or 110 of them boosted, I can't remember. It was done pretty late and he was running well still

Maybe you could look into buying a built motor. There's some companies (like map or full blown) selling fresh built motors with lower cr pistons for 3k if you trade in your core. Just some peace of mind...

Another thing to look into would be a stronger clutch for the power levels you're looking to achieve.

I'm of the opinion that a problem free motor at higher mileage has proven itself in a way that brand new motors haven't; it's probably not a lemon if it made it that far. But in general, a car may have carbon buildup impeding good flow and fuel delivery, or clogging of a fuel filter, or perhaps wearing down of some surfaces and changes in tolerances. At 100k, I wouldn't really consider that high mileage these days. With basic maintenance, most motors these days will outlast the rest of the car.

I went ahead and ordered the Speed by Design 500x turbo kit, it should be here next week. Haven't decided on the clutch yet, I'm looking at the stage 3 Competition Clutch and I'll be sending my flywheel off to be machined. You guys like the comp clutch? I've been seeing some mixed opinions on here. Also, I messaged Shiv and I'm going to be using his custom tuning service, I know he's worked with SBD before so he should already have the base map ready. Kinda worried about it though, I won't be getting consistent logs since it's not on a dyno, have you guys had experience with this? Really feeling over my head a little, I understand mechanics very well but never dealt with tuning a turbo for a NA engine.

Think you should have done more research.

Before you do anything, have a conversation with a tuner. For example, I messaged James at HRI tuning and he always replied right away. I asked him all kinds of questions. Pick a tuner that's a good communicator and knows their stuff

I won't install the kit until I fully understand how the tuning aspect of it operates, otherwise my lack of knowledge will leave me with a bricked FA20 and $4500 worth of car parts that I can't use. I just want to know what to do after Shiv tunes my car, what should I look for to make sure its running safe and healthy. Is there a general knowledge thread you guys can send me to??

Really Cole, I sometimes wonder if you give negative comments like just for the fun of it.

Its perfectly normal to be nervous of new stuff. He could read every article on the planet, go to car tuning classes hit up every member who has done a self install and still be nervous about putting a turbo in his baby/car.

Was your comment really that helpful or necessary? I know your going to come back with some retort and try to defend your unhelpful response. But I suppose that's just par for the course.

It actually was helpful. If you need to ask questions like this, you certainly aren't prepared to deal with something when it goes wrong.

But hey, lets just tell the guy to go ahead, and throw his money down before he fully understands what he's getting into. Sounds like a great idea.

Plus, I only see you coming in here to talk to me about a comment I made, where's your support for the guy?

Run 45psi for science

I am always a bit disappointed when that 300hp number gets thrown out there. It is the most commonly stated goal but I am not convinced that people realize jut how high it actually is. What is wrong with looking for 220 - 250 WHP? Hell, even 200WHP is a big bump from stock. To people that don't really understand the 300 looks like the right number since that is around many of the performance sedans but this car is not a performance sedan and that is a huge bump from stock. The STi is rated at 305HP but actually only puts out about 250WHP so do people really think that 50WHP over a STi is a great idea for a daily driver? Targeting a number vs a performance gain is easy grasp but people need to truly understand the impact that number is going to result in.

It's not too late.

A higher mileage motor that is not showing undo signs of stress has been 'seasoned'. Ever watch how a sword is made? It's heated and hammered. Again and again. The more this occurs, the stronger the sword is. As components heat up and wear in together, they should, in theory, get stronger and stronger IF they are within their threshold of power. This doesn't mean you can take an already weak motor and throw 500whp at it just because it's old, quite the contrary.

My Forester is running 24 psi on stock STi rods/crank and some drop in pistons. 190k on bearings/crank/rods, 85k on the pistons. It's slowly starting to lose compression, but a few tune adjustments and AFR's/knock thresholds are perfect. I imagine a set of rings is all it would need to run another 75-100k. That said, this motor will be getting fresh pistons and a valve job for my WRX, and the Forester will be getting a fresh 'kill mode' build based on my future goals with this car.

If I was in your position, I would have an independent local shop do a full leakdown/compression test, send off at LEAST one, ideally 2 oil samples out for analysis to ensure your wear metals are in spec, and be financially ready to purchase a new shortblock, and all of the additional expenses that come along with a shortblock install before installing your turbo kit.

I am also of the opinion that your tuning solution is 'so-so', and could play a potential factor in just how much power/longevity you get out of it, but as you said, you've made up your mind. I wish you the best of luck, and hope you make lots of power without detonation.

The tuner who did my Forester managed an extra 35whp when he was in the car on the dyno, as opposed to a road tune he had done a year before. It's vitals only improved, as he could repeat both maximum, and partial loads in a vacuum. Dyno tunes with a competent tuner are so much better than even a month worth of etuning, let alone a 'custom' basemap.

My opinion is your best bet is to sell your OFT and go Ecutek with a local tuner. This is nothing against Shiv, but there's no way he can give you the best tune possible when he's not in the car, loading it up as he sees fit. He can get close. If you could meet up with him at a dyno, you have my blessing.

But close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades. Neither are things I want in my engine.

This is extremely vital to truly understand. In the Subaru world, a lot of people have driven a 300whp camaro or BMW 5 series, per say. But have they driven a boosted AWD car with an LSD front and rear? It's just as different when you boost a 2.0l with high compression, in a very lightweight chassis. It's a drastic change in power and how the car will drive. Holding the power is a very small part of the equation of making that much power.

If you, your wheels/tires/suspension/brakes/drive line aren't up to that much power, you're bound to wrap yourself around a pole if you're lucky.

I have locals ask me for 500whp pretty frequently with STi's and WRX's. After taking them for a ride in my Forester XT, they, 9/10 times, say if they can get close to what my FXT makes they'll be really happy. Then I show them the dyno chart, and the sub-300whp figure shocks them. (Stock STi baselines at 200whp on this particular dyno.) Building a car that is greater than the sum of it's HP figures is a FAR more potent choice, both on street and track, than throwing 500whp at whatever chassis you happen to own and claiming you own a race car.

He was asking the question so he could get some helpful advise, what was wrong with making your statement in a less aggressive fashion. It's obvious your relatively smart so your one line negative comments are at best generic pointless statements that add nothing to the discussion or just plain lazy.

My response was not designed to answer his question(s). It was designed to see how much you would try to justify your glib answer. I have never installed a F.I. system in any car. My support for him is to ignore comments like the one you made and seek advice from people who have real world experience. If that happens to be you or if you know someone who has that experience perhaps stating those facts would have been more helpful.

But hey like I said earlier "Par For The Course"

Chasing HP numbers is not new and even well experienced people can fall into the trap. Back in my drag racing day (before 1/2 the people here were born) I used to get far better times than some cars with twice the HP I was pushing. The problem was that they would take an engine to a level in a car that just simply could not put that power on the ground.
I know I come across as against extreme power mods but that is not really the case. I just don't like people throwing random numbers out without considering the whole picture. A 300HP Twin may be a great thing if you can actually drive it in the conditions and frequency where required. I for one would not enjoy trying to maneuver a high HP monster through my daily commutes.

Agreed. I'm sure I fall into the younger 1/2 you're referring to.

At 27, my fondest automotive memories are of helping my dad build cars that are absolutely outside of my interest now. I used to get dropped off to school and birthday parties in a built 454 supercharged Malibu wagon, (you know, rusty maroon and rusty tan mismatched body panel, and hand widened steelies,) that ran low 11's. Now? My dad wants to borrow my FXT when I travel for work.

This x10. At 250 whp and 3500 lbs you would only need 193 whp in your 2700 lb BRZ to have the same power to weight ratio. This assumes that an awd dyno reads the same as a rwd, but 230 hp in a BRZ will make it quicker than 99% of the cars on the road and give it the all around performance to match its handling.

I'm going ACE A350 and Edelbrock next summer. I think I will probably end up machining a BIGGER pulley for the Edelbrock on my lathe when I'm done.

Not concerned about horsepower as much as reliability and cost. 300whp is just what the kit advertises. It was hard to turn down due to the claimed reliability, reviews, and $3k price tag. I am confident in every other area of this build, the ONLY thing I am worried about now is the tuning. I feel like Shiv knows what he's doing and has had experience with this kit, but I also know that nothing will beat a dyno. Im hoping someone on here that's used the custom tuning service with OFT can calm my nerves.

:thanks:

To be clear it wasn't just your statement of 300HP that I was talking to it was just that is the number thrown out the most. Doesn't help when they state that a kit will give you "up to" 300. Odds are the reality will be no place close to that.
Reliability when going FI on an engine designed for NA is always precarious at best. Yes you could run it for 100K with no issues or it can blow up on a dyno without ever moving a foot. As long as you fully understand the increase in risk that you are taking and are prepared for any setbacks you will be fine.
You are right to be concerned about the tune. In the end it can be how good the tune is that makes or breaks a FI engine.

I'm sensing a bit of a disconnect between your hopes/dreams and reality. If you're concerned about reliability and cost, your build should be focused towards a high quality NA build with the best oil cooling and tuning you can afford.

If you want cheap horsepower you should order up an SBD kit and have it tuned via OFT.

See what I'm getting at here...?

These engines are stout enough for some boost, but if your primary concern is reliability, a turbo is the last route I personally would be heading down.
For reliability I'd go: NA (JDL or ACE)>Supercharger (Edelbrock)>turbo (JDL)
And for tuning, a custom Ecutek dyno tune is the best option, short of an aftermarket ECU, (which is also subject to a custom dyno tune.)

fixed it :burnrubber:

Many people don't understand that they feel change in torque more than change in power. Locals that ride in the CSG BRZ generally acknowledge that it feels quick, but isn't mind numbingly fast, until they experience it walking fully bolted Evos/STis, or v8 SRT8/Mustang/Carmos, etc.

So you essentially purchased the cheapest turbo kit on the market for reliability and cost?

291whp, but an absolute tabletop of torque to 330wtq starting around 3k until about 6k.

Time shifting right, and she'll chirp the RE71R's (225/45) going into 3rd, I have to be careful because the rear end will step out hitting 2nd. (close ratio 04 STi driveline with DCCD Pro.)

I had a customer ask if my dash was going to fall in his lap. :lol::burnrubber:

I'm going to miss that when the 1.5XTR finally goes in.

Rode in a C6 Corvette Grandsport and a Cayman GT4 on track this year, both cars in the neighbourhood of 400hp and 3400lbs. They definitely make more power than my BRZ but it wasn't nearly as overwhelming as I expected. I think it is mostly due to increased weight and longer gearing in both cars.

I also rode in a JDM twin turbo RX7 making ~350hp and it felt like a rocket ship... but it has gearing and weight comparable to the BRZ.

The Corvette and the Cayman were timing their laps and they were both about 1 second per minute faster than I was in my BRZ. I'll note both are amateur race drivers with 15+ years experience and compete between themselves regularly. And here I am on my 3rd year of autocross and track in my little BRZ on 225 size RS3s and no power mods only 1 second per minute off these guys pace. I could add headers and a tune or switch to a stickier tire and I could be maintaining pace with these guys.

The RX7 is much slower than me per lap but it's the owners first year doing any performance driving so yeah.

Don't get stuck with round numbers. 300 whp means nothing. It is not a goal. Choose a proven kit and start from the base configuration that can be upgraded gradually with supporting mods. I highly recommend knowing the installation at a level that you can do it yourself so that you exactly know which part goes where for what purpose. Better to do it yourself.

Turbo is not the ideal kit to start with for a person who needs to ask general questions in this forum. Go with a supercharger kit like Sprintex or Jackson Racing. Because turbo installation is considerably more complex than those supercharger kits. Heat is one of the most limiting factors in FA20 engines and turbo replaces the exhaust manifold, adds more exhaust piping to change the heat balance in the engine bay completely, not mentioning about tapping the oil circulation.

Don't skimp on quality of the kit. Price should not be your main concern. You will be adding many more little critical components to your engine that can break. Do you understand the function of the additional components and will you be ready to maintain those components properly? Otherwise, your excitement about the boost will be interrupted with engine problems like many other examples in this forum. You will hate that car in the end. Those simple oil/vacuum hoses and their joints, one of those additional valves, or radiator/intercooler are additional critical points that will need to be checked additionally at every maintenance.

With all these, my answer to your question: It is not too late at all. If you don't understand the process it might be too early though.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58514

Here is the kit in question in case everyone is wondering. Thats like me buying a 2013 FRS and you saying "So you essentially purchased the cheapest sports car on the market for reliability and cost?" Well yes, I did, well before we knew how reliable and great it was. SBD has had a good rep so far and I feel as if its a good quality kit. If i wanted you guys to pick me apart and argue among each other about FI kits i would have titled the post "Uhhh what turbo kit should i get". There is no changing my decision as i stated in the original post, for now I am wondering about how to tune the damn thing and maybe some pointers about tuning. :D

You posted asking for advice...so why are you being so defensive when people are offering you advice? It may not be the EXACT advice you came in requesting, but it's still very helpful nonetheless. I would argue it's even much more helpful than the advice you came in here seeking.

Ease of installation is not an issue, I am very familiar with how a turbocharger works and what the parts do, what i need, where it goes etc. I have full access to a shop and many other experienced technicians to help me if need-be. I am just clueless on the whole custom tuning thing. The thought was to buy a capable setup and then run lower boost and a safer tune.

The best pointer I can give you is to get a different kit.

You're constantly contradicting yourself. You've done research, but haven't done research based on your questions. You want the best reliability, but purchased based on best price. You claim to know how a turbocharger works, but have no understanding of tuning (which goes hand in hand).

Are you ready to become another statistic? Are you aware you purchased a kit that's a blatent knock-off? Have you ever used a cheap chinese turbo before?

Closest shop to you maybe Moto East or you can work with Delicious for tuning.

BTW, this car is modestly priced for a sports car but it is not cheaply designed and built. It doesn't drive like a cheap car either. If you really think the car deserves a cheap kit, it will become your cheap car. I have no experience with SBD. My comment is general.

And, I would only consider AVO for turbo since they don't put additional exhaust piping in front of the air flow inside the engine bay. AVO design should theoretically give less turbo lag and reduce heat problem.

One more thing I'll add to this thread...

Are you sure you want to go through with a custom OFT tune? Many, many people on here have issues with getting in touch with Shiv for things like updated revisions to tunes, or tunes not put on his website, or broken tablets that need repair. Let alone getting revisions to a custom tune you've paid for.

Are you willing to gamble your car away with the cheapest turbo option, along with the cheapest tuning option?

It sounds like he was trying to buy at a certain price point, while picking a kit with the best reliability for that price point. I don't think he was stating absolutes like you were; ie, he didn't say he wants the best reliability (or would want to pay for that), just that reliability might be more important than other kits that are less reliable at his price point, but that might have other attractive features like higher quoted horsepower.

I think he is right that he is getting attacks more than getting constructive criticism. If you feel he is making a poor choice, and care to help, then perhaps offer reasons why a given kit may not be a good fit, or why it may not have the value or savings that it appears to have.

What sports cars are in a class lower than this?

I know I’m late to the party but wanted to see... OP did you get sorted and install and get tuned?

To your original post I don’t see why the engine mileage would be a problem. I also don’t think your choice of kit is a problem and some of the responses here were really unhelpful - but I’ve seen that in many threads.

My personal experience... I’ve just ordered a SC kit because I wanted a bump in power, still wanted immediate throttle response, but not the complications and extra parts and heat etc from a turbo.
I too am not hugely experienced in modifying cars but I can tell you the 2 things I think I have done right;
1) I drove in as many FI cars as I could (rly hard where I live as there aren’t a ton). This really helped with my final decision on kit.
2) I spoke at length with Delicious tuning plus my local guy (who uses Delicious). Both were amazing and really spent a lot of time answering my emails and phone calls... I’m happy that I understand the process, risks, options, etc - and from the pros and not “opinions” from people.
Let’s face it - apart from 1 or 2 well known guys on this forum you don’t really know who’s behind that keyboard when they are responding.

Anyway - keen to hear your update... how’s the car?