Transmission Synchro Warranty Work
 

Hi Guys,

I called up a dealer in my area to try to get some warranty work done; basically I think I need a new transmission. I bought the car used two and a half years ago with less than 20k miles on it, and since the day I got it, the synchros felt like they were beaten to shit. I mean so bad that even if the guy was racing the thing without ever touching the clutch it still shouldn't have been that bad.

Of course, it's a runaway problem, and it's at the point where shifting from third to fourth, if you don't double clutch and perfectly RPM match the middle section of the transmission, it grinds for like 1/4 second with the clutch all the way in. It's really sickening. I do have problems with all the gears but 4th is disgustingly bad, like it doesn't have synchros at all. I'm at about 33k miles now.

The dealer said that I am still under warranty, but they want me to agree to pay $500 for the teardown/diagnostic fee in the event that 'they find that it's not something that's covered under warranty'

I do understand that this type of thing can be caused by user error, but all of my cars have been manual as long as I can remember, and the BMW has the original transmission at 200k miles and shifts like it's new. My honda was original transmission at 160k miles when I sold it and it shifts like it is new. Hell I drove a model A that didn't even have synchros and it felt like it shifted easier than this. It's not for a lack of knowing how to drive.

So I'm just asking if this is an issue that you guys have encountered with dealer work as well; I feel like I shouldn't have to pay them 500 dollars only for them to just say 'trust us, it's not covered we swear' and give me back a car that still needs a new transmission even though I have a drivetrain warranty. I mean the symptom is there, and it's not like a mouse ate my synchros.

If they won't fix this I'm probably going to do the weapons grade performance LS2 swap just so I can have a transmission that doesn't suck **** because it's made by toyota.

Another alternative question: Does the Perrin transmission mount really make the thing shift smoother? is the upgrade worth it just for transmission preservation alone?

What do you think?

I had issues with grinding going into 4th and 5th gear. I brought the car in, they took it for a 2 minute test drive, came back and said, "Yup, you're getting a new transmission," gave me a loaner, and two days later I got my car back with a new transmission. It was effortless, and a very pleasant experience, actually.

http://www.seriesblueadventures.com/...nder-warranty/

Thanks, I’ll set up an appointment and get them to drive it. I agree they should be able to decide just by driving it.

Just to reinforce it, I had mine done a few weeks ago and I had to pay nothing out of pocket, not even for diagnosing.

You yourself are not the user error, but there's a potential the previous owner did not really know how to drive and really beat up those synchros and that's the problem.

Aside from that, just take it in, have them drive it so they can see how bad they are.

Good luck!!


You should do an LS swap though :cheers:

Does your car look modded? What exactly have you told the dealer? Have you already given them good reasons to deny the repair as a warranty case? Maybe I'm just pessimistic but it sounds like they're preparing you for denial. If the synchros are toast then they are toast. I don't see how opening it up is going to change anything.

Based on the common issues with these cars it is most likely to be the synchros, as you're thinking.

However, if it's happening in all gears it could just be your clutch being shot/out of adjustment too. Just a thought.

My car was on coilovers, aftermarket exhaust, wider wheels and tires, and an SCCA season tech sticker, and SCCA Championship sticker, and they didn't ask any questions.

4th and 5th gear synchros don't really get a lot of abuse in hard driving anyway.

Sounds like op needs be going to your dealer.

That's not a very good defense when it comes to modded cars and warranty work on parts that experience normal wear and tear.

Man that's terrible. I hope it you get resolved.

On my car I'm the orginal buyer and at 70k and my car shifts like a beauty. Don't be satisfied until it's all good, since it's under warranty. Sounds like the previous owner was a serious fool trying to drive stick. I wish you the best man and hope it all works out.

Sure, but it's a good, reasonable response to a reasonable dealer. I'm lucky to get into 3rd in autocross. I never use 4th or 5th in any competition or racing.

yeah it seems to be such a crapshoot if dealer a will react as dealer b and make it so easy unquestionably replacing parts. lucky for those where the process is painless.

There's plenty of 4th gear action on a road course, even more so with modded cars. And besides that, OP is having trouble in all gears.

Did you do any work with this dealer in the past?
Does your car have a history of service work with past dealers?
Do you have a complete history of all repair and maintenance work done on the car?

If you answered no to any of the above questions, a dealer asking you for a diagnostics fee is pretty straightforward, as their labor fee is not free.

The fee is usually refunded with warranty claim approval, or applied towards any non-warranty work in the future. Up to you if you want to take that risk.

-alex

I'm talking about my use case. It's an autocross car.

Depends on the dealer too. The dealer didn't ask for the fee upfront, but I basically had to sign that I would pay diagnostic fee if they found the issue not to fall under the warranty.

I didn't really have any other service history with them other then warrantying my floor mats (jokingly asked when I was there for parts, had 10k and a hole formed in the mat). My surprise when the service writer said sure and had them ordered and came in the next day!

No that's not the issue; you can tell the clutch is adjusted right by coming to a complete stop, pushing the clutch to the floor and putting it in first gear. You feel the primary move to set the gear. Then what you can do is put it back in neutral and then put it back in first without ever releasing the clutch. If it glides in no questions asked, your clutch is adjusted fine. It would have moved again and need to be notchy if the clutch was adjusted wrong.

Also, FWIW whoever asked no my car is bone stock except for MPSS tires, if you can even call that a modification. I like it exactly as it is.

To everybody who replied: Thank you. Update on what's going on: I am geting my car back today, they replaced the transmission and the HPFP for no charge under drive train warranty. I'm thrilled!

-S

Yaaaaa...........good for you ...... :thumbsup:

Now, don't mess this transmission up ....... :sigh:

(jest ah messen wich ya .....;))


humfrz

Pretty unlikely. I drive everything like a grandma driving a truck. I take my time and double clutch every gear. I'm still shocked that 4th managed to get bombed on this thing. I drove my honda for 10k miles without a clutch before i sold it (parked on hills, and got pretty good at clutchless shifting) and that transmission was still perfect when I sold it. BMW is going on 220k.

:drool:

Didn't you skip gears downshifting 6-4? Something like that?

So the plot thickens:

After I got the car back, the fourth gear is fixed, and with the new fuel pump the engine does sound a lot better. In the cold the chirp was less present, but seemed to come through as more of an asthmatic wheeze, so now the car is quieter than I ever remember it being.

HOWEVER

They somehow managed to break something in my climate control ducts. Now, when you move the direction of the air to 'feet mode' (I have the manual climate controls) It's like it's blocked or put together wrong. It gets really loud like a blocked vacuum cleaner, and air is coming out at the seams; a little comes out at the feet, a little on head, a little on defroster, because there's so much goddamn pressure in there.

I took it back into them and they just said "we didn't work on that we just did the transmission and the fuel pump"

And I was like "I'm not questioning what you did, I'm questioning what you accidentally broke while doing those things"

I argued with them for like an hour, and they started getting real pissy with me. They said that 'air is coming out we don't understand what you're talking about this seems normal' but it is so very clearly not normal. The day after I got it back I had it on full blast fan full blast feet on max heat and my toes were still freezing off, you couldn't feel a damn thing coming out of those vents.

What the actual f--k? I had that floor heat working fine literally the day before I took it into them, and it is very clearly not working now.

I figured they must have pinched or unhooked/re-hooked-up-wrong the cable that goes to the actuating flap or something but they just kept swearing up and down that they didn't, when I plainly know, having not been born yesterday that something they did caused this to happen, like something got disconnected and reconnected wrong.

AND THATS NOT ALL

The transmission does shift 'better' but the thing is it still bangs into most of the gears, I get some sync slippage going into EVERY SINGLE gear just like it was when I got it. I suppose you could say it's 'within tolerance' since it's nowhere near as bad as it was before, but I have checked again that my clutch is adjusted right, and I drive like a GRANDPA. I've tried single clutching, double clutching, shifting at all kinds of different speeds and it is only happy if I just bang it into gear or double clutch perfectly, even then I can feel it smacking the sync out of the way really hard. Everything else is a total no go. All of my other cars with manuals (of which there are a GREAT many) shift beautifully. I'm borderline outraged that a brand new transmission could feel like crap compared to my beaters let alone the BMW.

THIS is how the problem forms in the first place. little incremental wear that slowly adds up and then hits exponential growth as it gets worse and worse. I am NOT looking forward to putting in a third transmission at 70k. I didn't pay a good sum of money for this car to replace the transmission every 25k miles.

I think I'm going to drive it as is for a while, and if the transmission or the fuel pump start f--king up again, I'm absolutely going to do an LS2 swap because this is getting embarassing. I just don't want to have to deal with crappy transmissions and fuel pumps etc.

WHY the f--k did subaru let toyota do ANYTHING with the drivetrain. WHY

I hope you are all having a better time than I am.

Yep. That will fix it. Nobody has issues when they swap engines and transmissions.

Maybe sarcasm is called for, but what else can I do seriously? just sell the car? everything under the hood has been kind of a disaster. I'd take the problems of trying to swap engines with a kit over letting the one that's already in it break my heart over and over again.

As far as I know there's no aftermarket options for transmissions, and I haven't checked for fuel pumps but I don't have high hopes.

I want to like this car so bad but it aint making it easy. I've had it for 3 years now and I don't want to get rid of it but yet...

At least with a swapped engine I can rest with the knowledge that the pain is self induced, not because I paid 25k for a car that has tons of problems and nobody willing to take responsibility.

That's a bummer about the climate control.. As for the trans, maybe you should just give it time to settle in...? This car is raw and does all kinds of quirky stuff. One of the many things that makes it unique. If a smooth, quiet transmission is what you desire then maybe this car isn't for you? Just sayin'... I reckon swapping the engine and trans would be more of a headache.

Well the fuel pump is what it is and isn't broken in any way.
The transmission is a different matter. There are a few guys that have had issues but the majority seem to be fine. I have over a 100k miles on mine and it shifts perfectly every single time. The good ones outweigh the bad ones by a huge margin so maybe just swap a whole different tranny in.


You realize just how difficult and expensive an engine swap is right? It isn't just a matter of buying a kit and slapping it in in an afternoon. Even when (if?) it is complete you will have more reliability issues than a noisy fuel pump and some wonky shifts. That isn't even getting into all the other things on the car that you can and will break with the swap.


Totally get the frustration but the swap could very well end up with you going from bad to worse.

Well the thing is this is exactly how the semi-working gears behaved in the old transmission. Who knows maybe they told me they replaced the trans and lied to me. That's totally possible as well, but I'd like to think that's not the case, but even in that worst case scenario where they just repaired the 4th gear synchros, they're still behaving just like the 2nd and 3rd and 5th and so on.

I have no issue with loud and obnoxious transmissions, it's just that I think this is what is leading to the synchro damage. After all, if it grinds every gear change it's only a matter of time until they're worn out, and compared to the silky smooth that my old beater honda had after years of abuse I'm inclined to think that that 'matter of time' is going to be markedly short.

Willing to take that risk.

I've been under a lot of cars, and I did a V12 from an 850CSI into an E24, so pretty well aware of what goes into it. and that one was a bear.

When there's at least a mounting and OBD kit available it's at least a little easier, and I have seen examples of LS2 in BRZ. so willing to take the risk.

I'm not sure why I'm having so many transmission problems. As I said to the other guy just before, who knows... maybe they just did a synchro repair and then told me they replaced the trans but actually didn't. I just find it really upsetting that they both could be having trouble grinding.

I'm sure it's only exacerbated by the cold that we have in the midwest this time of year as well. I'll have to see how it wants to behave after I get it out of the garage next spring. Fingers crossed maybe it will be alright.

the matter with the fuel pump is when it was at its worst for me it was really crazy how loud it got. It sounded like loose belts (it wasn't) and it's embarassing to be seen in a car that the know-nothing folk mistake for a ferarri when they see how clean it looks, when it's also chirping away the perception changes a lot. That's not what you want. Might not matter to everyone but it matters to me.

I don't know you or how you really drive and have not been in your car. That said, in my 13k miles on my '15 BRZ the transmission has behaved just fine. Now, it does NOT like to be hurried and you have to give the synchros time to get their work done, particularly when the car's cold. But if I shift deliberately and firmly it will do exactly what I want, every time. Now, mine may take a dump on me tomorrow, but I don't think your experience is the norm.

For the money an LS swap will cost, and the aggravation and heartache it will probably cause, I recommend selling the BRZ and finding a low mileage Cayman. If you fit in them (I don't) I think you'll be ahead in both money and happiness.

Thanks for the advice, will make note.

I'm not sure what you mean give the synchros time to get their work done, when you're in neutral, they are not working until you make a move to get into gear. If you're shifting fast and deliberately even after waiting for a moment in neutral you are not giving them time to get their work done, at best the primary of your transmission is slowed down by mechanical friction and the viscosity of the oil making for an easier shift, but that is also the purpose of double clutching, to force that processes hand a little bit. That's been the best for me to make it behave. And we all definitely know not to waste our time getting into gear, because that's how you surely get any transmission to grind.

I can try shifting a little slower. I've had mixed results with that. I'm not exactly shifting like speed racer though.

I have noticed some of the same things you did though, it's 1. /significantly/ happier warm and 2. seems to like being shifted briskly and with a lively force. It still bangs a little bit going in but its much less severe. I still fear premature wear.

You are double clutching on up shifts?

With the old transmission, I had to double clutch every single gear, up or down, and I'm pretty good at it too. With the broken trans if I was off by like 1% it would still grind for 4th, the others were slightly more forgiving.

With the new trans I'm trying to give it a chance to see if it behaves right on a single clutch because that's what synchros are supposed to let you do, but I might end up just always double clutching. I am double clutching on downshifts always, I do that even in perfectly working cars.

When I do double clutch with the new transmission, it obviously behaves perfect like you would expect. We're just talking about single clutch for the roughness. I guess there's no law that it has to be smooth for single clutching, I'm just shocked that it isn't given how many great transmissions there are out there that do not suffer from this problem, complicated though it may be.

If it isn't behaving when it warms up outside next year, I'm just going to go back to double clutching all the time. There's really nothing else for it at that point short of an engine swap.

Who knows... maybe I am just spoil't on BMW/honda/porsche transmissions, never had to replace one ever. My E39 at like 250k miles has finally started to get a kind of grumpy 2nd gear, but that's pretty normal for a manual of that mileage, and even then it's still working better than the BRZ.

Most of us don't suffer from "this problem".
I drive mine year round, in Canada, at sub zero temperatures and have never had a single grind (that wasn't my own fault).
Are you blipping on the double clutched up shifts?

Absolutely. Whatever it takes, I get that RPM to the exact right spot with the clutch out before I depress it a second time and select the gear. The only time I've had this grind on me was with the broken 4th gear in my old transmission. That gear was so screwed up that I could only get it right about 90% of the time. I'm sure maybe my foot has slipped a small handful of times in my life as well, but it has been very rare. If you were just a hair too high or too low it would grind anyway. So I think I did alright considering that. I usually can barely feel it going into gear I get it so close. This is especially true on the bimmer. holy god that car has a smooth trans.

I always blip the right amount, and then usually after I get the gear selected I'll blip a second time to get it back for releasing the clutch (if it's necessary, hard to explain I do it by feel sound and intuition mostly, you know how it is). If I happen to be braking and need to down shift, I will do a full heel-toe blip, but I'm not a very agressive driver, and very rarely need to do that on the street. I never never never downshift without matching the RPM on the primary and then let the clutch jerk the car to slow down, hate it when people do that.

Getting back to this. I honestly think it's the clutch. Your test is valid for full disengagement but the distance after full disengagement really does count. The thin little air gap or the tiniest bit of contact will cause the input shaft to windmill, especially at higher engine speed. The ratio of pedal-to-bearing throw is ridiculously high, especially for such a small engine. For the stock system, what may feel like reasonable disengagement is actually marginal.
@Tcoat will attest to my clutch setup. I have my pedal lowered but I also have a corresponding mod to increase the throw at the clutch fork. The two changes cancel each other out to maintain effective disengagement.

When your clutch pedal is fully released, where does it sit relative to the brake pedal? If clutch and brake pedals are about even, the PO lowered it in vain attempt to gain some feel.

Also, in my sig is a a link to the manuals graciously served by a fellow owner. In there are instructions to adjust the clutch pedal to factory spec. Try that before you wear out your new transmission.

Actually I had another question for you-- There's been some talk about the perrin transmission support. Is this somehow supposed to do something about this problem? They claim it helps with the 'notchiness' which I'm trying to determine if that's the uneducated way of saying slight grind as banging it into gear, or something totally different. Perhaps that's worth looking into? idk.

That's an interesting theory. Could you go into a bit more detail about how the distance after disengagement makes a difference? Because my un-informed understanding is if the primary doesnt move in neutral then you are good. But maybe there's something that I don't know, or perhaps it just plays a role in what happens in the course of changing gears? When I get home I can try letting it go slightly and repeat the test to see if the primary is spinning.

Just off the top of my head I feel like the clutch and the brake pedal are dead even when it's just sitting, and I can bottom the clutch pedal against the floor (at least that's what it feels like, never got down on my hands and knees to check) and that's what I'm considering the fully disengaged position.

But that would make me very happy if adjusting the clutch would fix this because that is kind of what I had originally thought as well. Way too weird for the gears to be this cranky across the board. But It's been to three dealerships and none of them said a word about it after driving it on the interstate no less, so I guess I naively was considering that data point as well.

Don't blip on an up shift. I know it is tempting but it is backwards to what you want to achieve. When down shifting you are going from a gear with lower RPMs to one that is going to bring them up so you have to blip to rev match and speed up the engine closer to where you want to be. When up shifting you are going from a gear that is in high RPMs into one that will start out much lower. You actually want the RPMs to drop a bit in the up shift to be closer to the synchros speed in the higher gear.
Make sense?

The clutch is self-adjusting so the only way to get more throw is to raise extend the clevis adjustment and corresponding hard stop up top, which doubles as the cruise cancel switch.

It's no theory. I've adjusted my travel not to just simple disengagement but enough to be able to shift easily. I actually raised my pedal some after learning about the effect. It made quite a difference.

And I'm an older fart who thought he'd seen it all. I learned about it in a discussion here with @Stang70Fastback.

Ultra's clutch has a totally different catch point, throw and overall feel. The mod may indeed help in this situation especially if the prior owner messed with things.