RE-71R's Lost Grip
 

So, my current set of RE-71R's seem to have completely lost their grip. Have had them mounted for about 18 months, but only drove them to and from Autocross events. Wear is just about 1/64 above the wear bars now. Is that considered pretty normal life for these tires? I'm thinking they've heat cycled out, but hoped I could get to the cords before that happened.

Sounds normal. You can try rotating them (run them backwards), just don't drive in the rain when you do that.

How many runs and how many street miles? Mine have always been good to the cords. I have gone thru 3 sets so far, on 4th.

I've heard at autocross events that RE-71Rs get heat cycled well before they wear out, hence why so many autocrossers sell used sets. So it's likely they're just no longer getting up to temp fast anymore. I've never driven them so I can't speak from personal experience, but this is what I've heard at the watercooler...

I've heard they're, good until the tread is gone, will find out in a few months how true that is :P
(have one set at ~100 runs that's looking pretty ragged that will probably hit ~140 by the end of the year, they'll be 1 year old next month)

~150 runs seems to be the common point at which people say they fall off, or when they've become slicks, whichever is first. Everyone freaked out when the tread wear seemed really high but getting 150 competitive runs out of a tire is excellent. The one factor you may be fighting is age as you approach 2 years old, but I've heard that they'll 'wake up' if you can get some heat in them.

You may just be struggling with the temperature dropping?

I had a set I thought had fallen off with about the same tread depth as you, ~1 year old, ~60-70 runs, popped on a new set and... it was the same after scrubbing them in. My issue was setup related, a few hundred bucks down the drain (I managed to sell the used ones for a few hundred to minimize the losses).

imho keep running them until next spring, you've got tread depth so they won't be terribly unsafe at the very least, see if there's any new tires coming out before buying replacements. Unless you're trying to win a points championship the worst case scenario is they're not as competitive as before due to age (not necessarily heat cycles) and you have a few events sliding around which can be educational.

:burnrubber:

We were just having this exact discussion in the Boston BMW CCA ISG group, when trying to decide upon a controlled 'street' tires to turn at club track events next year. And there are several people, at least one with a twin, who had experience with RE-71Rs heat cycling out "prematurely" and long before the tread is gone. It seems to be a common problem and the group has ruled out the tire as a result.

I can't really offer much insight into the specifics but there are at least 4-5 people in that group who share smg1138's problem, and within a much shorter time span. So I think there's really something to it.

Not to derail but what tire are you considering instead?

Well, I won't regurgitate 2nd hand stories and just emphasize my own experience swapping out ~60-70 run RE-71R's for some fresh ones, I was slow the first week of April and I was just as slow three weeks later on the same site with the same weather :P

Like I said we currently have a set with ~100 runs, I think they're well past the wear bars and we'll be running the rest of the year on them pushing them up to around 140 runs. I'd love to swap on some new tires to see if they'd help, but I don't anticipate any $800 checks coming in the mail this year.

:bonk:

Thanks for the responses so far. Wish I had kept better track of how many miles I put on them. Roughly estimating, I'd say they have close to 100 Autocross runs on them now. Plus the miles to and from events which are usually about an hour away.

I've heard the exact opposite. I'm still on my first set after two seasons so we shall see if I can notice anything dramatic, as I'm definitely over 100 runs now.

It's between the Dunlop ZII, possibly upcoming Dunlop ZIII, the RE-71R and Hankook RS4. The thought is they want to use 2 tires. (1) street based tire that has less grip, something that can also handle mild wet running and something that will allow the car to move around a bit more than an R-compound. It's to be used for exercises and general comparisons. And (2) DOT-R compound (probably Toyo Proxes RR) for pounding away and hot laps.

FWIW, a buddy of mine in a BRZ ran almost identical lap times as me last year at Mont Tremblant, within a few tenths over multiple sessions on RE-71Rs. This year, on a set that was 8 months old with about 30+ heat cycles, he couldn't get within 3 seconds of his time last year, where I was running similar times, all else being equal.

Ah, I totally missed the part where you were talking about track duty.

I haven't run RE71R's on track and would absolutely believe they are unsuitable for what your club is looking for, track heat cycles are rather different than autox heat cycles (which is what the thread is primarily about) and the ZII/III or RS4 would definitely be the two to choose from.

:cheers:

Although if you mean 30+ heat cycles being 30+ ~15 minute track sessions I'd say that's mighty impressive from such a sticky a street tire.

It's not really heat cycles on the RE-71's, it's age. Look at the build date. At 18 months + whenever it was built is a long time in terms current 200tw tire life.

Since we are talking about tires lasting, I have to mention. On my last track event, I set my best time on that track so far on my RS4 tires, after using them in 11 track days. They are so old they are starting to look bald in the center and inner shoulder (lots of camber for me). I was quick enough to match my best time on Nittos NT01. Feeling wise they are as good as new, data wise they keep pulling the same sustained lateral Gs they did the first two days (1.3g on unbanked high speed corners, 1.2g on unbanked low speed corners). If you need lasting tires that can perform on track and are street legal (for classing or for doing dual duty), I wouldnt look past the RS4.

I will try a set of RE71R next year, but I will still get a set of RS4. Both will be mounted on identical wheels so I will be able to provide back to back sessions with data to really compare what they can do. Until then, sit tight on what you got I guess?

Sounds about normal between heat cycles and age.

71R are "I'm paying for my time" tires. Unfortunately, they are mandatory to be competitive at AutoX.

The sad part is real slicks don't cycle like 71R, and last significantly longer under sustained heat conditions, but everyone falls victim to the "200TW" politics.

I hadn't heard that before. Does the rubber just start to break down over time?

Really? From what I hear Hoosier A6's /A7's get tossed after ~50 runs. I've heard some people went through a set of A6's over the course of a single Pro Solo, that's a $1k+ tire bill for one weekend :eyebulge: Any autoxers out there can correct me if I'm wrong on that point.

The 'stones last at least twice as long and cost half as much, I don't really feel like a victim in that equation, and if they're only really good for the same number of runs, I'm still seeing 2x the seat time for my dollar on the Bridgestones and up to 6x as much value if I can get ~150 runs out of them.

I totally understand if you mean track duty (which is usually the case based on what you dedicate your time to), but that isn't relevant to this thread at all when OP is specifically concerned about Autox life.

All tires "dry out" so to speak, even long life all-seasons, the rubbers lose their oil and flexibility and get hard, they grip less as the chemical ages is the long and short of it, maybe you call that degradation, maybe you call it something else. That's part of why durometers exist, you can actually get a sense of how old a tire is by how stiff and hard the rubber is, Hoosier doesn't recommend running a tire over 2 years old for instance.

My set of Bridgestones (the ones that weren't any faster than the ~60 run tires) will be going on next spring and they'll hit 2 years old then, they might be uncompetitive at that point but I'll run 'em down for the seat time.

Really what it will come down to for you is how serious are you about putting up good times over the next few months. If you're fine to risk not being at the top of the time sheets, run 'em. If not, spend the money. The biggest risk there is that some hot new tire comes out in the Spring and you get left behind on the tires you bought in the Fall/Winter.

Edit: There will be people like me who think your Bridgestones are still good, you can probably get a few hundred bucks for them given that you're still above the wear bars.

If you walked around SSR Grid you'd notice that everyone had fresh A7s to use on lincoln concrete (Lincoln is VERY subjective on the condition on R-Compound and unless you have fresh tire you're significantly off pace).

A7s can last sure, 75+ runs but pace drops off them dramatically. Most competitive cars in SSR have either fresh A7s or 20 run A7s for National Events.

FWIW, I corded my BFG RivalS 1.5s at Oscoda this year, with about ~130 runs on a STX car...never flipped. And I won that even by almost a second.


RE-71Rs do tend to lose grip before the tire can cord. The tire is still quick, but the limits of slip angle and abuse the tire can take is much less. I had RE-71Rs on the 128 and when they let go the threshold of grip was a very small window. I wasn't far off the pace, but I had to deal with understeer on entry and oversteer on exit.

I think age is more-so the deciding factor here. How did you store these tires during the off-season? If they're not in black plastic bags, in a climate controlled area you're losing life on them

I definitely noticed my RE71R's cycling out at around 110 runs. I was struggling at an event suddenly after steadily improving all year even though I felt like I as driving fine. Felt my tires directly after my last run, and they were still rock hard and not sticky at all after 4 runs in the sun in 90 degree weather, even though the tires were warm to the touch.

I was still able to get em sticky at a practice event after that after about ten runs. I think when they get older they just take more heat to stick, as others have said.

That said I'm still running mine for the rest of the season, still a touch above the wear bars and I flipped em after 70 runs so I have some shoulder left.

I kept them stored inside my house all last winter. Kept them in those Tire Rack tire totes with the handles. Is it better to use black plastic bags instead?

Storage conditions are definitely important too, I've heard the same, black plastic bags, don't let them get cold, don't let them get hot, don't let 'em sit out in the sun,

In my case my climate control is living in California and keeping them in a garage, but with no bags over them I'll bet I definitely lost a notable amount of life out of 'em after sitting for two Winters. But I'm not too concerned with putting up good times at this point, seat time will yield more benefits than fresh tires and I'll run them 'till the tread is gone.

:cheers:

...Well damn, now I'm paranoid I'll be on ice skates next year
:lol:

Edit: People would be salivating at this info if they could have read it two years ago :bellyroll:

Basically the oils within the rubber compound drying out is going to be your biggest concern - Long term to exposure to Ozone also could accelerate aging, so yea, something sealed is ideal.

Also - If you have new tires on stickers, no need to do anything, the mold release seals them for you :)

DOT slicks =/= real slicks

I'm talking continental/michelin stuff. Those would never work for Autocross, as they'd not be up to temp.

Continental is just a rebranded R6 (well now R7) compound.

Aka - 2 compounds that aren’t even used in autocross


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FWIW, I purchased my RE71Rs in the spring of 2016. I did an entire season of autocross on them (won my class) and then stored them very meticulously by... leaving them fully inflated, strapped down on my tire trailer, uncovered, in an unheated storage unit for a Chicago winter...

...this year, while everyone else was using new tires, I used those same tires and won ALL SIX of the Chicago Region events I attended. I'll be storing them this year in the same manner, except they'll be in a townhouse garage which likely won't get as cold. Next year, I'll probably start off on that set as well, so that will be a true test of degradation due to both age and temperatures.

Point being, one winter stored "fairly improperly" didn't seem to do them much harm. At least not enough that it screwed me over in terms of competitiveness.

Hoosier carcasses and manufactured by Hoosier, but the compounds themselves are different.

Remember, Continental fully bought out Hoosier earlier this year!

I suspect the driver mod is on your side

So not a relevant viewpoint to this thread then.

That might have more to do with the other drivers than your tires. Although you do seem to maintain more than a few tenths to second.

Haha, there are a lot of factors at play. I'm just making the point that one cold winter didn't turn my tires into hockey pucks :)

Sort of, sort of not.

AutoX has a lot of influence on the politics behind tires and how they're labeled, and is a direct reason as to why tire labeling is so misleading nowadays.

In talking to others specifically about the RE-71R, it seems to be optimal for about 1-2 years after breaking the mold release. Lots of factors in play for the in-between point until you see significant time delta to stickers.

If you see a 2015/early 2016 build date it's probably toast.

Uh, used Continental take offs are R7s

http://www.bimmerworld.com/Wheels-Ti...rack-Tire.html


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RE-71R's Lost Grip
 

ChumpCar and other racing sanction series specing 200tw dictates that as well.

But let’s be real, tire manufacturers are not making tires solely for autox. We are the minority


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Looks like mine were made in Nov 2015, so they're probably toast. Guess I'll need to find an big empty parking lot in the near future. :D

True, but a "normal car" also doesn't wind up on RE71Rs. These are an enthusiast tire, and a significant chunk of the sales of these specific tires are to people who are buying them for competition where treadware ratings matter. It's a well-known fact that manufacturers skew the treadware ratings to meet specific criteria.

The minority is the majority of the RE71R/Rival S 1.5 consumption. There's a reason Tire Rack sponsors SCCA Solo 2.

The 1300 cars at solo nationals this year would like to have a word with you.

Lots of those competitors only use 1 set of tires/year. And of the 1300 only about 1/2 are on street tires. The rest are Hoosiers.

If a Chump team uses RE/Rivals they're going through them at a rate of 1 set/race. Some maybe even 1 set/day. That's a few sets of tires a season for the average team. A single Chump team easily eclipses a handful of the average autocrossers.

They're more likely using RS4, though. They last longer and are better at heat management

TireRack Sponsors Solo yes, but they don't determine inventory status or dictate the 200tw game.

About 600-700 were street tired cars.

Anyways, if anyone was following the tire wars this year you'd realize that both the Rival 1.5S and RE-71Rs had significant tire shortages this year, more than prior years. This wasn't because of us consumers demanding more tires.

Tire manufactures make our molds in-between other lines of tires. I'm not as familiar with Bridgestone, but I know the RivalS are made at a facility that also makes off-road and OE manufacture tires.

You see, OE Manufacture tires are the money maker for these businesses, so they stretch the limits on how far they can produce these tires before they switch over to making another mold, same can go for Bridgestone. Luckily for BFG, they are within the US so transport is relatively easy, but Bridgestone is going across on a boat and 30-60 days out.

If we actually ever had any say in the tire game, these manufactures would keep a constant supply and inventory of tires. Unfortunately they don't and you need to horde tires to make it through a season.

Hell, I even had a hard time trying to get contingency tires this year because of inventory issues. And BFG Racing has their own stock of tires that are fulfilled first before TR and other resellers have them