Clutch Feel / Question
 

Hi Guys and Gals

So I tried to search for this in the forums for about 2 hours now and didn't find anything that would answer my question so sorry in advance if this topic was already brought up at some point.

My question is, is there a way to change how the clutch feels. Specifically i want to change the distance the pedal has to travel between grabbing and fully engaged (not sure if this is the right term since i'm from Austria). I'll try to explain so i'm not misunderstood. For example, I shift into first, slowly let the clutch come upwards, feel it grab and the car start to move, now from this point until the point where i can take my foot off the pedal is reeeeeeeeally long imho. I've driven manual all my life (15years now) and i've driven cars ranging from 86whp to 488whp and not once was I this annoyed by the feel of the clutch. I thought I'd get used to it, but it still feels shit every time i drive the car. Now if i drive spirited it doesn't feel bad because I make quick shifts so I don't notice, it feels really good there actually, but driving around the city going mostly slow and easy it really feels horrible.

I already removed the spring and adjusted the grab point which made it feel a lot better than stock already, but it obviously doesn't change this specific behavior. What would I have to change /do/upgrade to get rid of this?

Thanks for all the replies in advance and again, sorry if this was already asked but there are a lot of posts about the awkward clutch and none of the once i looked at had an answer for this problem.

Yes Mtec has a clutch helper spring will help the feel of the pedal. Also ultramaroon has posted a way to increase the feel as well but is more involved. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...+clutch+spring.
My advice is to replace your Mtec clutch spring first and drive it for a few months to see if you like it.

You are able to adjust the height of the pedal but I would have a certified tech do this if you are so you don't over do it and mess up your clutch some how.

Since you are in au after your breakin period I would sudjest moving to a 5w30 full synthitic motor oil any top Brand will do.

Happy driving.

ultra has a thread on how you can change the clutch slave cylinder to change feel


But i don't think our clutch feel is that big of issue as ppl set out to be? I don't feel my clutch being worse at driving fast compare to other cars i been in. But ya when you driv slow the clutch is kind weird.
*removing the clutch spring & set the clutch bite point lower actually makes it a bit less smooth for heel toe? But not like you can't get use to that anyway.

Put the Mtec spring as you will develop premature wear with out one!!

WRONG. And it is wear not ware. And pedal not peddle.

Please use evidence and read other post before saying something is wrong. At http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86848 you will see that Mtec tech posted that he did see increased wear in the slave master. Also there are lots of other post on this subject posted around as well.

I will always give more credit to an engineer vs some one who is not with mechanics.

Sorry for wear and pedal as I post on an iPhone quickly auto correct sometimes bugs the heck out of me.

I'm going to be open minded and let you find and post the information where there is increased wear on the slave master cylinder. :popcorn:

There is no information in the link you posted were there is wear mentioned. Only information on the amount of play by removing the spring. :bonk:

Until you can prove there IS increased wear. You are WRONG. There are many people with 100K++ miles with ZERO problems. I have yet to see ONE example where there was increased wear caused by spring removal. :cheers:

Please use evidence and read other post before saying something increases wear. :lol:

I have a strong dislike of the clutch pedal feel in the FRS. I find it to be soft with too wide of an engagement area.
I've added Whiteline inserts for the differential and transmission, which helped give some feedback.
Next I'm going to change the slave cylinder and line.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77390

The ONE comment I've seen about added wear comes from Mtech, the people selling the aftermarket spring. Bit of a coincidence, don't ya think?

So if grimmspeed tech shows data and post his data vs say other intakes. So his info is not valid just cause he is an engineer or from the company that sells product. How about if you follow ultramaroon do his slave update and you don't think it feels any better to you. His posts are wrong because he suggested it?

If it wasn't meant to be there they would have not put it in there when designing the car for mass production.

How do you know that was a credible engineer? Where is his data? It is literally one guy who said hey I witnessed this it's true with nothing to back it up. When a company comes out and posts ACTUAL data that's different I can trust data. When multiple sources repeat the same thing, you can trust that it is credible because it has been validated by multiple sources.

Quite the opposite is true here actually, many people have been driving with no spring since 2013 with no issues. Yes, most people say they like the feel of the spring so I am not saying it is a bad product. If you want that in-between feel and no looseness in the clutch pedal go for it, but I am not going to believe that there is harm in having no spring.

I've been running without a spring for over 30k with occasional track days. Zero additional wear noticed, clutch still feels just like it did the day after I removed the spring.

Also ask yourself, if the clutch pedal is still moving the same distances, how would it increase wear of the cylinders? They're not seeing any extended travel OR more force. The spring simply reduced the transfer of the force to the drivers foot (and hence made it feel like poo for those of use who are used to having the typical pressure plate force move through the hydraulics and to our feet).

Have you tried bleeding the clutch? Or messing with the pedal position? You obviously want to make sure that when the clutch is fully depressed that everything is engaged as normal, but you can move the engagement point around a little bit.

With no spring you can see that there is more play as there is no pressure brining the pedal back to full out position. This is also shown in the gif in the op post. This little travel has the same effect as resting your foot on the clutch pedal. So yes it can increase wear. If you don't think so why do we have a dead pedal in cars ?

So why add a spring from maker because it has a function to aid in over time. If not they would have not put it in there when engineering it. If you can't drive a clutch don't buy MT buy flappy Paddle or auto transmission. Any person that can really drive MT with skill this is irrelevant as they can adapt.

Now you're starting to attack people and make yourself look like an idiot in the process. It's there to make the clutch easier for everyone, mostly beginners. It makes it so that it takes less force to press the clutch down. Sure, I can get used to a soft mushy clutch, but why the hell would I want to when I can take 15 minutes and bring back a solid clutch feel. You're trying to say that the weight of the pedal by itself is the same as the weight of your foot on it? Cmon man.

First I did not attack anyone. Second yes it's there to assist in pressing the pedal. It is in almost every newer car with a MT so like I said they engineered it there for a reason. Just like every car has an air filter in the air intake. Now if you don't like the feel of the spring change it. If you don't like the air filter change it to one that allows more air to pass. Do not remove something out of a working product. Tell me what will happen if you don't like the flow of your stock air filter so you remove it and close up the intake box. Same thing different part it will avetually cause a failure. So yes not having a spring there will make it feel heavier but leaves play in the pedal.

In the end it's your car! But you clearly don't know what your talking about. I don't want someone who is looking for actual help to ruin there car we are here to help people so I think you should be a little nicer.

Here's some light reading for you. It leads up to my DIY but I thought you might appreciate the back story.

Removing the spring does nothing to change the travel. If you can bleed your own brakes then swapping the slave cylinder is no big deal.

There is absolutely no problem with removing the assist spring. I'm personally insulted by the bullshit statement that Mtec made. Those assholes can suck it.

@Zentec You have yet to prove your point. There is no extra "wear". It is an ASSIST spring. With or without the ASSIST spring, the piston is at the top of the travel as there is a spring INSIDE the clutch master cylinder, therefore there is no change in the function of the master cylinder itself, only the clutch pedal.
Just admit you're wrong and learn from it. We all make mistakes.

The Spring is not the issue here, as i've said and on that point I agree with pretty much all the other posters, i've been driving without it for 2 years now and there is absolutely no increased wear and there also won't be any because no it doesn't increase wear. Also a More apt analogy would actually be like how some bicycles come with supporting wheels to make it easier for someone who is not used to riding bikes to not fall over. Similarly the spring helps those that are not used to manual to lighten the pedal. In both cases you can remove the aid to get a more realistic feel and in both cases it won't impact anything in a negative way.

Like I already mentioned i have been driving 400HP manual cars in the last 15years, I live in Europe (Austria btw not Australia as someone said :D) we pretty much only have manuals here and I've been tracking cars for the last 10years. This is not a question of "git gud" it just feel plain fucking bad because it's been made to be easy to handle for amateurs and therefore the feel it gives back to the driver has been sacrificed. If i'm tuning my car anyway why on gods green earth would I leave this part stock and no it's not irrelevant and no i won't adapt. You can adapt to eating raw vegetables every day as well doesn't mean i won't go ahead and start cooking instead to make it better.

Now please get back on topic and stop the bickering about the mod that i've already done and am happy with.

Yeah I did change the pedal position for a better feel. I have not bled the clutch yet but i'm guessing that will be a part of Ultramaroons guide so it might be the next step as soon as i've read through that. Thanks for the input :)


Thanks i'll read it and then reply back, i'm a bit on the run atm, but since some people already suggested your DIY i'm hopeful that it will be good :)
I know that the spring does nothing to change the travel, just wanted to mention it so that people don't suggest doing that first because i'm pretty sure that would have been suggested first ^^ since it does help with the general feel of the clutch a lot :)
Completely agree on the spring topic, it is almost impossible that it has any negative effect and as long as i don't see some empirical data to prove me otherwise I won't believe what a single guy says.

Edit: Read through the first 3 pages of that thread you posted. This is EXACTLY what i was talking about!!!! thanks

2nd Edit: Def gonna do this mod next week and see how it feels. It sounds like what I need so i'm hopeful for now. Thanks for the DIY and if I have any questions i'm gonna PM you probably :)

I too have driven manual transmission cars before, and thought I was going crazy with my '15 brz. I couldn't feel the engagement point and it was heck taking off from a stoplight. It was really frustrating. When I took the spring out, I found I could drive again :)

The spring is pushing the pedal down, not up, right? So removing it should actually reduce wear because there's not any pressure on the clutch. I would think that a spring that pushes the pedal up to remove the slack is going to reduce any possible wear, but a spring that pushes it down (like the car is stock) is like very gently riding the clutch. I may be wrong, of course, and only have 18K on the car so far, but removing the clutch spring gave me back the joy of driving a manual transmission and no issues with it at all.

It only takes a small amount of time to remove the clutch assist spring and adjust the pedal height. I would suggest the OP try it before changing out parts. Worst case, you have to re-install the spring and go back to stock.

-Mark

[edit] always drink your coffee before posting, looks like the OP already did that, sorry <slurp> I'll wake up eventually... [/edit]

LS1M: wasn't it so, that depending on clutch pedal point spring both pushes up when you release pedal, and a bit pushes down near fully pressed pedal? I guess it might indeed dull things on relatively light stock clutch with stock clutch cylinder ratio, bit it might make things easier with aftermarket stiff clutches.

That's the only reason I would see actually keeping it (or putting it back in) is if there was a crazy stiff pressure plate installed.

It's an over-center device like the spring in a light switch. It pushes up a teeny bit at the top of travel but as the pedal is depressed it pushes down with a rising rate.

Isn't reinstalling the spring a huge PITA?


That's one of the main things that has kept me from removing it.


Does anyone on here have the Mtec spring? I feel like I never hear anything great about it.


I'm very tempted to remove my spring this week. I have owned this car for 4 years and I still get frustrated with the clutch feel.

IMHO, leave the spring installed and go straight for the slave cyl.

Ignore the braided SS line. These are not the droids you're looking for.

I personally won't ever put back that spring, super glad i did that mod and i don't think the clutch can get heavy enough for me to consider putting it back personally, then again i'm a pretty big dude with strong legs. I think ultra reinstalled his after changing the slave cylinder, so maybe try that first.

I will report here once i've changed the slave cylinder on my car (which should be end of next week because the subi dealership didn't have the part on hand, the dude actually laughed because i ordered a couple of OEM parts before already that no one ever needed so he had to order them as well) and then i can tell you my impression of the clutch without spring, the new slave and adjusted pedal height.

I never reinstalled my spring but it's a sad story. I wrapped the perches in a paper towel to keep the dining room table clean and, well, ... trash day was the next morning. :cry:

It's just that I've done at least a dozen swaps for my friends here. A couple have opted to leave the spring installed. After driving them I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter. Lightens the pedal a little.

- if you have some vice, i'd say there is no PITA in reinstalling. You compress springs, put on and tighten with cable zip ties, turn, compress, tighten other spring side .. nothing killing. Mtec's might be possible bit easier to compress w/o extra tools, but stock too stiff.
- i have Mtec spring. Simply one of lesser spring rate then stock. Costs cheap, but then again i didn't feel enough difference in clutch feel after installing Mtec one instead of stock spring. Subjectively there was more difference with adjusting clutch pedal dead travel mod (don't go overboard, easy to get unnoticed slight clutch drag, that may add synchros wear/gear engagement harder).

I did the swap and for anyone interested in my impression I posted it over in the DIY post about the slave swap. You can read it here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=355

TL;DR: Swap the cylinder