FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions
 

The title of this thread and the debate it creates is starting to honestly eat at me. Basically, lets have a debate...you tell me and others WHY you think for some crazy reason this car is going to be competing with sales against the 370z. I'll start with my side.

Using the Sport Package 370Z against what we know of the FR-S, with a middle ground $24k MSRP.

370z:
$35k, 3.7L V6 @ 3200lbs, 332hp / 270 ft-lb

FR-S:
~$24k, 2.0L H4 @ ~2700lbs, ~200hp / est. 155 ft-lb

Any red flags yet? Could it be the monstrous size difference in engines that put these car's in different classes? The $11k price tag difference? The weight difference?

I'm failing to see where in the hell exactly people are expecting this car to compete with the Z. The engine difference alone puts them in different sports classes, and the price tag on the 370Z takes its pretty much out of most peoples affordable range, especially Scions target market.

Take for example, the FR-S in my situation of a $5k down payment and trade in of about $1500 (After paying off debt on the Fusion), puts a $24k car, to $18k, and makes payments roughly around $365. Thats affordable for me. The 370Z, however, in the same situation, would come out at $560 a month...a retardedly high payment. In order to get the 370z to the same monthly payment as the FR-S I would have to literally triple my down payment to $15k, or as I call it, save for a few more years. Now if I were going to do that, was I ever really in the market for the FR-S in the first place?

My suggestion to people who are wanting this car to compete with the Z is to stop getting your hopes up. The Z and the FR-S are in two different sport categories, and hence, should not be expected to compete with each other. The FR-S is supposed to deliver a different driving experience from the Z altogether, emphasizing complete balance, light weight, and low center of gravity to make the car handle as much like a race car as possible. The emphasis is NOT power.

+1 Comparing apples and oranges!

I don't think there are too many cars that can truely compare to the FR-S besides the Genesis coupe.

Its too overweight to really compare. If the FR-S does come with the expected 200hp, it will smoke the Gen Coupe in every facet.

First off... I don't see it either. I mean your comparing a 2+2 to 2 Seater that's a lot more expensive, a lot more powerful, comes in different forms too like a roadster.

I guarantee you most people will go for a FRS,because of the 2+2 layout and price. Because let's face it a G37 is way expensive and it's not a sporty Z it's a Skyline.

FRS is expecting to be in one form, Z has 3 forms, unless some how Toyota decides let's put a V6 from a camry in it, and make it compete against the genesis. Then i don't see how it's going to compete with a "Z" honestly the only true Z competition in my honest opinion is a Cayman/Boxster.

Now the closest competition to the FR-S I think... is well right now older cars Rx-8 and the 2.0T genesis.

As much as I hated to read your post, I must agree with you. Those were some harsh facts, but correct me if I'm wrong. If this car came NA with around 200 hp, adding a turbo could easily put you around 250-275 with little boost. Doing that along with the price of the car will still be cheaper than a new Z. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the subaru version will have a turbo. Not to mention, I'm sure the aftermarket as we speak have plans for this car once they can get their hands on one. So I guess what I'm saying is getting close to 370Z numbers shouldn't be too difficult. Not to mention have a back seat, better gas mileage, and a functional trunk. I'm no mechanic but those are just my thoughts, what do you think?

In our current market is the Miata in direct comparison to the 370z? No, the FR-S market SHOULD be geared towards a similar performance bracket and target audience. If any magazines or autoblogs do compare the two cars, they have to have use a different contrast than FT86vsZ35.

The only group of people that would want to start such a retarded debate are enthusiasts, which typically are a biased breed and wouldn't be the best people to listen too. They are a small portion of the total consumer market.

So realistically i can see a Best motoring showdown with the FR-S with this line up. NA 2 lap FT86/S2000/MIATA/RX-8.

Well I am an enthusiast and I'm not making that argument. Because a true enthusiast knows about different sports classes and segments. I believe its just people WANT the car to be as fast as the 370z without having to pony up the cash to get said performance. Its not happening, nor should it be expected to happen.

oh and I guarantee that BMI is doing an FT-86 vs. S2K vs. Miata in some form or fashion. They HAVE to....and maybe have Tsuchiya in his TRD AE86 touge monster at the back of the pack, cursing the 2.0L's for ganging up on him.:bellyroll:

Yeah that thing is a piglet but I'm seeing from a FR/2-dr/2+2/4 cyl perspective. Besides the weight, that is the closest sport compact available.

IMO, RX8 is a 4 door, s2000 and miata are 2 seater convertibles . . . thats not like the FRS at all.

I'd say the genesis is the most like the FRS. However, we can all agree that the FRS is much better in every department . . . besides boost.

Thats an argument for the FR-S right there. The money savings alone and you can make the FT-86 as quick in the straight as the 370Z, considering the weight difference.

Of course, depends on your ability to ignore the dealer warranty.

What good is the boost if you're making roughly the same WHP and weigh 400 lbs heavier?

Sure, the Gen coupe might get off the line quicker, but if you're good with hard launching, shouldn't be hard to overcome in the FR-S.

performance bracket, not atheistics and chassis design. The cars iv listed were better comparison because they share similar brackets in both market and performance. Besides there are discrepancies globally about what the rx8 is (sedan or coupe) and the S2k and miata can appear in a hardtop model. The genesis iv thought off would be a decent match up, especially for the US market readers, but from a global standpoint my list is would be far more popular.

Also if the BMI and other magazines would post up a challenge with the FRS/miata/rx8/s2k ....which 2 are out of production already (rx8/s2k) we can possibly see some great responses from that in the industry.

the S2000 isn't even in the same class of the Miata, it is usually compared to the Z... but the S2000 is dead and the Z has only gotten better. yes the Genesis Coupe is too heavy to compare... its more of a Mustang competitor. Although the price of the base model makes it comparable.

the FR-S should be a tad better than the Miata, but certainly not close to the S2000. (and the fact it is a coupe vs roadster)

in any case, no point in trying to compare... its not the same type of car as anything on the market.

I think he was talking bout in Best Motoring.

to add to WingsofWars. I can see Integra/Civic in that list. They always add FF in FR car race and GT-R or STI for video car.

Exactly.

If you wanted to compare the closest thing is a 2.0T Genesis, a Civic Si and an Rx8 in this current market.

....I don't think a GTI would fit but throw it in there if you must.

But NOT A 370Z

A Civic? I understand where you're coming from but the fact its not FR kinda takes it off the table.

In BMI's case, it would be a 2.0L FR vs. 2.0L FF SUPER BATTLE TO THE DEATH at Tsukuba, with Tsuchiya in the FT-86.

Oh happy days ahead, can't wait!

I don't care what anyone says if Gan san was still active he would own Tsuchiya in a 2.0L FF anyday! But too bad that' not the case I can't wait to see a BMI like that :D!

class differs from many different aspects. Performance brackets are based on similarities on a points system. The FD rx7 and s2k were on similar performance brackets, even if they are in different classes. The 350z and NSX were also on similar performance brackets but are also in different classes.

The genesis coupe, s2k, Integra, silvia, miata, rx8 should all be in similar performance brackets but not the same class..im sure we can add and take a few cars given the situation.

Thats what I've been trying to show with this debate, from both sides.

One is a strict sales comparison of why the FR-S wouldn't compete with the same sales. The other is a performance class. Of which both can be basically explained using the car's starting MSRP and engine size.

Especially performance class....you're comparing a 2.0L N/A 4cyl to a 3.7L 6 cyl...that doesn't even make any sense. Add onto that fact that basically everyone who says it HAS to compete with the 370Z is basically a power head...and you get the end result: a silly argument.

Have any of you guys noticed the large population of women putting around through cities with their 'cute Z'? Well those are some of the same people who will cross shop a FR-S. It seems as if from their perspective if they can have a cute, fun, car for less money and more seating why wouldnt they.

Its been said before, many people who purchase cars like these are not necessarily enthusiasts.

I was just going to write something similar. I personally don't think the Z compares with the FR-S as they are different horses for different courses. However I can see how someone with $31k looking at the Z might also take a look at the FT-86 when it comes out. I think you might get more people initially interested in the Z "drop down" and consider the FR-S than you will have people originally interested in the FR-S then consider the Z. Just a matter of budget really. If someone is looking for a fun FR 2 door sports car, both of these should make the list along with the others. Now in the end it depends on their budget and how much one might want to spend. Similar to why many might cross shop a Boxter with a Z. I personally don't think the Z is similar to the FR-S in anyways except for having 4 wheels, 2 doors, and being FR. But the average Joe might consider "that new Toyota/Scion" when looking at the Nissan. So from a sales perspective they might "compete" against each other. Hell I was close to getting a new Z last year until I decided to see what Toyobaru would offer.

One of these 2 is not like the other,
one has back seats, the other ones don't.

haha, staying true to your name I see.


You have a picture of your car btw? My friend sold his sileighty to a person who lived in Atlanta....

That's what's beautiful about boost though. Flick of a switch and you got more power.

I have to say the Gen Coupe 2.0T is the closest competitor to the FR-S. Then you can toss in the 2012 Civic SI even though it's not considered a sports car, it will be a buyers options due to the same price segment.

Although you would have to be a fool to pick the 2012 SI over the FR-S.

The RX8 is often in the same shootout as the 350z. So, if anyone is going to compare the FR-S to the RX8, then you are going to have to compare it to the 350z also. Which the Z is a brute of a car and I don't think the FR-S will have the balls to tackle the Z. The RX8 is just slow, so I can see why people would say it would be a competitor, but you can't ignore what else it competes with.

FR-S though with a little more power is going to be a BEAST...hence why I want 300whp in it.

what i really don't understand about the "has to beat the 370z to be successful" crowd is their illogical idea that because the fr-s has no direct competitors, it will not be successful. okaaaay, so if it does have direct competitors that it has to fight for market share, somehow that's gonna make it more successful? http://www.tiki-taka.org/forums/publ...s_facepalm.gif last i checked having a monopoly on a segment was a much better formula for success than having lots of competition.

the argument is that aside from the miata, the low 20k 4 cylinder sports car has died off and therefore the entire segment must be unviable. this is a ridiculous argument because if you look at the only cars that fit this segment in the US, there were obvious factors that killed each one that had nothing to do with the fact that they were priced in the low 20s and had 4 cylinder engines.

the 240sx, the last true car which would have competed with the fr-s, died because of the ka24 motor and super bland styling from the zenki s14. sr20 and styling like the s15 would have saved it for sure.

the celica died because the entire 6th generation was only available with the 7a-fe and 5s-fe and in wrong wheel drive. the 2zz in the 7th gen was an improvement by comparison but it had love it or hate it styling which grew dated quickly.

the mr2 was always even more of a niche within the already niche sports car category because it was MR. that coupled with the frog face last gen which was only available with the 1zz killed the car. i hear it was an excellent car with the 2zz.

meanwhile, similar cars like the eclipse and integra/rsx, even the overweight prelude, were popular during the 90s despite being wrong wheel drive because they were available with 180-200 hp and didn't look like gremlins like the 7th gen celica. even the overweight tC with only 160 hp was popular for its first few years. and as we all know, the miata has soldiered on with 170hp for decades. that to me is enough proof that this segment is viable, even at 180-200 hp. there are those who are willing to pay an extra premium for boosting and more power, but there are plenty of us that would be satisfied with no boost and a lower pricetag.

edit: the prelude, despite being popular for a time, eventually died because it got too heavy and too much higher than the low 20k range. and it got hit with the ugly stick. the eclipse died because of ugly styling and and a move to a v6 for the higher output version, and just being wack compared to the evo. i'm not too sure why the rsx died but hey it's ff so who cares.

while the stats are not really in the same category as eachother, i think grins per dollar is what most people look at when they compare two cars that different. well have to see if the 370 is worth it over the ft86. the stupid part is the fact that we dont know what kind of car its going to be. it seems too small to be a tourer so i hope it comes out a proper sports car (although a host of people defend a sport car as being a 2 seater, rwd, and not be based of any econobox...stupid but whatever) if this thing can be a hardtop miata and have enough room so i dont have to take my shoes off to drive im in.

According to this BMI is no more :cry:
http://noriyaro.com/?p=6554

I would say a old nissan 240sx would qualify, since they are both around 2600lbs and rwd. Prolly the best comparison IMO.

Correct me if i am wrong, but isn't it hard to achieve reasonable boost on an engine with a high compression like 11.0-12.0? hoping it makes 75hp over stock is a little much... more likely 30-40hp over stock.

I know on scion tC's with 10lbs of boost you could easily see 300whp with the right tuning. Dragon prolly know much more than me on that topic.

NOOOOO! its not direct comparisons! its PERFORMANCE BRACKETS!!!!!!!

if Car A has a 1pt-3pt bracket and Car B has a 2-4pt bracket and Car C has a 4-6pt bracket, then Car A could be compared to Car B and vise versa but Car A cannot be compared to Car C. But Car B can compete with both A and C.

Get it?

This should not be about comparing 1:1 or apples to apples. The performance specturm is very wide when you bunch together all the cars globally into one list. This is why the FRS does have competitions in the market, but not in a direct comparison. This is why we can add discontinued vehicles to the list as they are still part of the buyers market.

WTTTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


[U2B]WWaLxFIVX1s[/U2B]

No seriously, this can't be real!!! Not BMI!

This car has no direct competitor, IMHO the closest are

Subaru WRX (pwr/weight, price, the suposed go to car if you don't want rwd)
Mini Cooper S (weight, size, price, pwr/weight, utility, fuel consuption)
Mazda Miata (weight, size, price, pwr/weight, rwd, fuel consumption)
Mazda RX8 (size, price, pwr/weight, utility)

I feel the genesis compares (very poorly) to the V6 mustang and Camaro
(really the genesis only compares to the FR-S in (Price, Utility, and RWD and being foreign which is irrelevant IMO)

I'm not considering the 370z either, some of us will need rear seats and 25K is literally the highest we CAN spend on this car

T____T now if they cancel top gear too.... then I quit life! Hot version is gone too?

Yup....

but top gear is UK based and very strong now we have top gear china lol

^

Its not exactly entry-level if the people who can only afford entry-level, can't afford it.

Didn't some Toyota exec mention a while ago that the FT-86 would be "thousands cheaper than the Z"? That sounds like a comparison to me.

This post is so retarded it's not even funny. The genesis doesn't compare poorly to the cars you mention especially the Camaro. And then you went and added a WRX? and a mini cooper? as a closer competitor?

Yeah I'm hoping the compression isn't terribly to high. I forget what the SI is (11's somewhere). If the FR-S is in the 11's then a small amount of boost 8lbs will be safe enough. It's a trade off, you can't run a lot of boost, but due to the high compression it makes more power. The 2011 tC will make 330whp at 8lbs of boost and it runs 10's for compression (it's also a 2.5L). The 2005-10 tC will make around 300whp at 8-9lbs as it runs 9:6.1 and 9:8.1 depending on year. At the same time, you can get away with 14lbs of boost on a 2005-10 and survive were as the 2011 would probably detonate before making 14lbs of boost on stock internals.




Huh? BHAHAHAA! You started to lose me when I got to 1pt, 2pt....etc...:bonk: There is no regulatory committee that puts cars in a "performance bracket", so isn't that subjective as well?



PS....as I mentioned before the 2011 Mustang is 300hp and runs high 13's in the 1/4 mile with a price of $22k. Some sites are already saying the 2011 Mustang and Camaro are going to be the FR-S competition.

Hahaha, both car's weigh in at ~3800lbs.

I'm sorry, but muscle heads won't even be looking at the FR-S to begin with. If you want an overweight torquey whale then by all means, go buy Mr. Needstogoonaseverediet

The FR-S is DESIGNEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD, to be a completely different sports car.

I'd expect a track head like yourself would understand the different benefits of owning a nothing but power cinder block, and a quick and agile responsive sponge (I unno, both similar shapes...).

The fact they can get car's that are so much larger and so much heavier to be as cheap makes me severely question their quality and longevity.

But, it works out for the better if you ask me. It forces Toyota/Scion to seriously consider the FR-S' MSRP against those car's to win over sales. They'll HAVE to keep it low low $20k.