Suing Toyota over Warranty Issue (Synchros)
 

As many of you have experienced, my 4th gear synchro is starting to get worn out. As a result, my FRS grinds going into 4th gear in high RPMs. I took my car to Toyota to have the car looked at, and after diagnosis, they asked me for $10k to replace the transmission, despite my car being in warranty. They said that due to my modifications and the track time my car has endured, I caused the issue and therefore it is unwarrantable. :thumbdown:
After researching on this forum, it has become prevalent to me that this issue is far from uncommon, even on stock 86s. Legally, auto manufacturers have to prove that modifications or abuse are the direct cause of an issue in order to deny a warranty, and in this case, the issue was caused by the poor design of the transmission, and not my use or modifications. :mad0259:
In a final attempt to have Toyota held accountable for the issues my car is facing, we are taking them to small claims court to receive compensation for the transmission replacement.

If you or another user you know has had this issue, please respond to this thread or PM me. Our evidence to prove that this issue is not our fault is going to be showing the judge how common this issue is. Don't worry, I'm not asking anyone to drive to California and show up in a court room, I just have a couple of questions to help me form a case.

Thank you so much for helping out a fellow 86 owner. I will keep this thread up to date with developments as I may not be the only one facing this "modification discrimination"

If you have any more questions, these two videos may help answer them:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMRhKQLzvNc&t=37s"]TOYOTA SCREWED ME OVER! (and how I could've avoided it) - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjDCzRm0HsM"]We are suing Toyota. - YouTube[/ame]

The very first thing any good lawyer should tell you is to get rid of those videos and stop making comments on the case on a public forum or other social media.
You are handing them your case on a silver platter.

Wut..

Dude, you said you "raced" it and "mod" it. Even put it on a YouTube vid. Things are not in your favor. Good luck with the case.

For future reference, do not tell them you "race" or "mod" it.

To any mechanic that has a warranty claim when the customer tells them they race or mod it. To them they have no idea what kind of race or mods you done. For all they know you could have been in a world rally race, or a tractor pull drag race, in this case the tractor being your car. Then you come in and them tell them it has issues after said racing and modding.

HPDE =/= racing

I should have gotten rid of the videos, you are right, but this is the situation I'm left with. Regarding publicly commenting on the case, I am not putting any of the evidence I will be using against them online, I am simply trying to gain support and collect evidence.

Thank you for your concern, and I will make sure to be weary of what I post or say about the case online, but I need to use public outlets like this to gather the evidence.

Like I told TCoat, it was a poor decision to leave my videos accessible when I gave them the car, but they found them on their own. I did not tell them I race.

Either way, this is the situation I am left with. At this point all I can do is gather evidence and hope the case goes well.

Gathering "evidence" of other failures is not going to help when they are claiming misuse and modifications are at fault. The very fact you are asking other for info is evidence they can use. Any small thing you say may be twisted to mean something else. Talk to your lawyer and see what they have to say but going public during any form a court action is not a good idea.

What you, I or everybody else here may define it as does not mean anything. Show a non enthusiast judge a video of a HPDE event and he could (and probably would) rule it as "racing".

Hell they just need to look up the definition to be swayed in the wrong direction:
"The High Performance Driver Education (HPDE) refers to driving schools held on dedicated race tracks designed to teach drivers proper high speed driving techniques."

No timing, no competition = no racing

It comes back to what is deemed "abuse and misuse" as we blather on and on again on a monthly basis.

@Darkiv posted in a thread about the Magnuson-Moss Act. "They cannot deny a warranty claim unless they can prove that whatever your modification was regardless of if it was done to the transmission or not caused the issue. And they have to prove it, not just say it." Act

Follow up question since I didn't have time to watch your videos at work -

1. What parts/mods did they say caused the failure?
2. What part do they say is failed? My specific issue (I think) is with the 4-5 / 5-6 single cone syncro.

The comment I made, (4k left on my 36k warranty) initially was: I am having issues/resistance/grinding when trying to up shift into 5th with anything over 4k RPM AND/OR down shifting from 6th into 5th at any appropriate RPM, I told them that I did a trans/diff flush and and replaced with OE+ fluids but the issue persisted over 2k miles before I took it to them.

The SA at the dealer knew my car was modded, and told me they where tuner friendly, (a majority of tech's have STI's modded) but not to BS them. He also stated to me that no way was my car powerful enough to bang on 4th/5th/6th at a track/HPDE event or freeway pulls.

As of today, I am 4 business days with my car at the dealer. The master tech who's working on it is awaiting a tech call, the master tech even told me that he was going to replace all 4 of my coil packs because coil pack 1 was going bad (Apparently I eat cylinder 1 coils like breakfast - I am on my 3rd) I was advised to visit the dealer tomorrow (Day 5) and request a loaner car until my repairs where completed.

How that tech call goes, I have no idea. The SA said that the master tech working on it, basically types up all then notes and then someone at Subaru NA will be the final decision on what needs to be replaced or repaired.

I think a few factors go into getting support from a dealer:

1. As the customer, being calm, collective and respectful with SA's get you HUGE points. Don't walk in with you go-pro and your "crew" thinking that your mommy and daddy own the place.

2. Not being pushy with SA/Tech/Dealership. Shit takes time, your not the only person in line.

In the last 4 days I called once. Day 4 just to get a status update.

3. Understanding the dealerships role, your role as a client and everything in-between.

While many argue this car is/isnt "track use" or have videos/ad's showing the car with mods/track days. You have to understand that its a Sales/Marketing technique. If you take a brand new 86, do a ton of mods that Subaru cannot say 100% it will "work with the car" then drive it like you stole it and post it all over the Internet. Well, sorry I don't feel bad. This is where social media screws young people. All the shit you put online is online forever. I mean come on, you don't see TJ Hunt going to a Subaru dealer asking for service do you?

There is a HUGE line between sales/marking and the physical build/intended use of the car. If you want an OE track car, buy a Porsche CUP car and ask what type of support you get. NONE. I think Ferrari FXX is the only customer facing car that does come with support, but you cant drive that on the road nor will Ferrari let you keep it at home. I am sure they have more unique cars that may have race setups from the OEM side, I just don't have the money to know about them :)

I hope it all works our for you and anyone else in the same boat (myself included), I also hope you have your expectations in order. The real world has a nasty stick it will be happy to beat you with in life.

OP, when going to 4th, does shifting a little sooner than redline or shifting a little slower resolve the grind you are experiencing?

unfortunately i suspect these transmissions will grind bone stock straight off the lot in the condition mentioned. but good luck with outcome.

Do you HONESTLY believe that? It sounds like that last post I saw on here about someone doing a warranty claim with a dealer and said the same shit.

The dealer laughed them out of the building, his/her IG/Facebook at all types of shots of the driver/car on the track and the excuse was the same you JUST said.

And before you say, well they shouldn't be looking up peoples "personal" accounts/info. Well, its not personal when its public on the internet.

This is why I am not in customer service. The shit people believe, say and do is crazy!

Oren Holzman,

Before you continue any further, I suggest you get a lawyer.

Thanks.

Do I believe what? That HPDE's aren't racing?

Abso-fucking-lutely! And if you think differently I pray to god you stay off the track because that's not what HPDE's are about and you'd be a danger. They're educational events, fun events, and safe non-competitive events provided everyone is on the same page.

What matters is "has the car been abused?" We could argue what constitutes "abuse" with HPDE's and autocross events and clutch drops on backroads until the cows come home, but I'm bored with that discussion.

To be explicitly clear here, I'm only talking about this because it's a known warranty issue that could affect any 86 and several transmissions have been replaced under warranty. Yes there are things that can and will fail prematurely due to hard driving, things that are consumable and easily replaceable, transmission synchros are not one of those things in this day and age provided the car has not been abused.

I thank god that Toyota and Subaru tried their damnedest to design a car that lives up to a hefty amount of hard driving and I've only had to replace coil packs outside of regular planned maintenance. I learned my lesson, it's not worth it to buy fun cars new, you're paying for a warranty that most OE's will not honor if you don't have a cooperative dealership on your side.

I hope you one day get the chance to go out and drive your car at 10/10ths out at Willow Springs or Buttonwillow or an autocross, it's a sublime experience and this car was in fact designed to operate nearly flawlessly at the limit for a long time with only minor changes from the factory spec.

:cheers:
:burnrubber:

Posts like these two illustrate why OP 1) will not win without a lawyer, and 2) need to take this thread and the videos down.

This is a lot, so I will try to address everything you said as best I can:

1. They listed every mod I have: headers, wheels, tires, coils, exhaust, race seat, even stripped interior, but their main argument was the track time.
2. Specifically stated, the issue is the 4th gear synchro. The rest are fine. The grind happens in high RPMs, no matter how quick or slowly I shift. The deciding factor is the speed as to if it will grind or not.

Regarding the section about the Porsche CUP car and such, I am realistic, and I would accept responsibility for any damage done by me and my track time/modifications. Say the coilovers gave out and the car spun out, I would not dare enter a dealership, let alone expect a warranty related fix. But because this issue is a common issue in our transmissions and it can be concluded that it was not my fault. That is why I am taking these actions to have the issue remedied.

I'm realistic, I understand that there's a chance I will be SOL and will be paying for this transmission myself. But since there's a chance that I could win and have this issue paid for by the company that's at fault, I don't see why I shouldn't try, and that's where I am. Thanks for your help.

I will just cut the chase. There is no transmission quality/design problem with transmission. And you are just working against yourself. Based on your OP and comments above, you have already convinced me without any doubt that it is your fault. I don't think you have any chance in the court.

Shifting slowly does not stop the issue if the RPMs are still high. This is a common issue but not "normal" as my car was diagnosed by a Toyota Rep as having a bad 4th gear synchro.

Things like this can haunt you in a court of law:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odrijGp79t8"]Letting my friend drive the FRS... - YouTube[/ame]

From the 3:12 mark onward. You even admitted that there may be a clutch issue from the previous owner which may have masked transmission issue(s).

But yes, keep telling yourself that you need a thread like this to gather evidence. You're not the first person to want to do this and you won't be the last one to lose in a court of law, either. I've seen 25+ years of these "warranty" issues and at the end of the day, threats of a lawsuit really don't mean much when you have an entire YouTube channel dedicated to giving the defendant evidence to have this tossed in court.

-alex

"pessimistic skeptic" is a fitting title.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=37129&page=7
Heres 7 pages of people discussing an identical problem to what I have, with many of them having their STOCK and NOT TRACKED cars covered under warranty. This problem, seeing how common it is, is a design flaw.

Thanks for your opinion, but if I have any chance of winning this case and having the party at fault held accountable for their design flaw, I don't see why not try.

Have you even spoken to a lawyer? You are burying yourself even deeper with every single post.
It doesn't matter what other people have said this is not a class action suit jut you and your car against the largest automaker in the world.

Isn't it? :)
I wish you the best.

Forget about evidence you plan to use against them. What you are doing is providing evidence for Toyota to use against you.

You could have posted a tech question about the problem and asked for PMs from people that have the issue. But now, all the "evidence" Toyota needs to reject your claim is out there and cannot be recalled.
Sorry.

As to the banter about HPDE's and racing, of course HPDE events struggle without exception to stress it is not racing because no prizes, etc, as strat posted. However, I agree a small claims court judge will likely not buy into the nuance and is still likely to call it abuse beyond what the warranty was intended.

I have an interest in this because I knew when I started track days, HPDEs, etc., back in 2003/4 that I was on my own and whatever happened, happened at my expense. Oh sure, you can buy limited insurance but you pay one way or the other, and it would not cover what you are claiming.

I have no emojis to add.........

Some reading and viewing material...

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119248

I have gone back and forth with some on here, in a debating way. YES this car is advertised to take to the track when NOT used in a competitive way. You will find MANY advertisements stating this car was made to take to the track. It even has a "Track" Mode in the 2017 model! Is that a tease. You have it but don't take it to the track? Here's what happened when someone was denied warranty and the dealer was looking at her on YouTube. Anyway I digress, I wouldn't of posted a detailed video like you did but it's too late. If you dig a bit there is material out there from Scion and Toyota about using this car on the track. I did however contact Toyota corporate about this issue and they at first didn't know what to say about warranty claims after failure during Non-competitive use. Ultimately after a few turn arounds she stated "It's ultimately up to the servicing dealer if hey will honor the warranty work". So suing Toyota may not help but suing the dealer may get you closer to your desired outcome. Maybe a 50/50 cost split? Anyway good luck and you are fighting and setting a precedent whatever the outcome. My opinion is clear. Some may not agree but that's okay. That's their right. But hey, why not try? :P

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=21

Here's the original article, this may help you. You never know .

http://jalopnik.com/subaru-dealershi...-ow-1796073277

Many vids of Tetsuya Tada not only talking about taking the car on the track but having the interview at a track!

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...y=tetsuya+tada

Plenty of videos on Scion's YouTube Channel about the FR-S

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...4E8D5E1EB1F2FC

I would't try to find fault in their engineering but fight for the warranty coverage instead, way better chance that way. If Toyota or the dealer can use you're videos as evidence against, especially launch control, which I don't think affects 4th gear, your sunk probably.

Either way this will be entertaining to find out what happened...

https://media.giphy.com/media/E3xXqq617AaFW/giphy.gif https://media.giphy.com/media/128UMaujdjX7Pi/giphy.gif

Instead of wasting money (and time) to sue Toyota, why not spend it fixing your 4th gear synchro instead?

I am sure you can have it repaired for a lot less than $10K.

Also, the definition in the warranty/insurance booklets goes along the lines of:
"was being used for competitions or off-road activity"
Therefore all events at a track fall into that category even if it wasn't "racing"

not to downplay op's situation but how on earth is any part of a tranny rebuild/replace cost 10k? id imagine that if you had to pay to rebuild the entire block it should cost that or maybe less?

Yep, I agree. I suggest you either have the transmission rebuilt or buy a new one. Then, if you want to continue to hammer on it ...... budget for yet another one.

:popcorn:


humfrz

Personally have been having problem with the transmission on my car for almost half year now, and whenever I posted about my problem here people always tended to blame on my driving skill and this and that, or they would tell me it's normal. But the truth is our car has shitty transmission. I'm not a mechanical engineer to explain it but the problem is well known. And after dealing with the dealership for a couple months kept telling and showing them the transmission is making weird noise when accelerating or when I let go of the gas, they agree it needs to be fixed under warranty and tomorrow they are gonna put on a new trans on my car.

I don't know if the way you used your car was the real cause of the issue or not, but I do agree our car has weak ass transmission and Toyota or Subaru should look into it.

To my knowledge rebuilding this transmission is very rare and it's almost always replaced.

But I agree, the lawsuit is a nice moral stand but in practice I'd be hunting the junkyards and online listings for a used transmission.

$500-$1000 on ebay before shipping right now for a used transmission:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...sion&_sacat=0#

Yep, no doubt ...... nobody "fixes" things anymore ...... they just replace them..... :sigh:

Back-in-the-day, I've rebuilt several manual transmissions ...... oh, but wait, those were simpler, they only had three gears ....... not six gears ...... :D


humfrz

lol. Another "entitled" millennial whining bc he found out the hard way that he is, in fact, not entitled to anything. - Got my mean comment out of the way early. Now I am here to help.


There isn't anything I can say that hasn't already been said but I don't think you are going about this the right way. But I would like to help you make lemonade from your lemon.


You seem to be pretty good at the youtube. Try searching "how to replace syncros in a frs/brz". If there isn't a diy, then you should make one! Lucky for you these should be out pretty soon and they will be about $9,700 cheaper than the $10k that Toyota quoted. Now you can get more views and subscribers or whatever and have a properly functioning car!


I know this post seems like I am making fun of you (and I am a little) but I'm not kidding. Judging by your videos it looks like you live far away from me bc the weather appears to be super nice. But if you are within driving distance of NY I would gladly let you use my shop and lift to create a DIY Syncro video to benefit the community. Manual transmissions are pretty basic. It shouldn't be very hard.

Edit: Just saw that you live in Cali and probably don't want to drive to NY for a lift. lol. But the offer still stands if you do make the trip. lol

I agree with this, buy a used transmission. Install DIY with a few tools and a jack and jack stand.... call it a day and enjoy the smiles per miles.

What a massive waste of money

Sue the FK out them!

That's where I'm at as well. 10 seconds of searching and I came up with a dozen used, low mileage 86 transmissions for under $1,000, and a brand new one with warranty for $5,200 (list price is $6,284). Obviously that doesn't include labor but I can't imagine it would be anywhere near $4,000.

The 4th stage of grief is bargaining.

Nothing wrong with trying but his methods are way off.


It is like playing poker with your hand being broadcast on a big screen behind you.

I don't see why Toyota owes them anything in this case...

Warranties cover defects from the factory, no?

What is the % of bad synchros for people that have zero mods, only ever use the car on the street while obeying all posted laws, and they have 30K-100K miles? Assuming the original owner.

Synchros are relatively simple by design, so why would they go bad from the factory? Change of suppliers mid-production that delivered inferior materials? The assembler bunked the build?

People that race their car - my mom thinks that accelerating fast from a stoplight is racing, btw - or attend non-competitive events that encourage behavior is objectively more demanding on the car than driving on public roads (going to and from Sonic) where one would obey all road laws (not-racing) - should be 100% responsible for powertrain issues, no?

Your AC doesn't care if you go do 100 laps at Laguna Seca, but your transmission does. If you run your AC 24/7 on full blast, but it fails at 30K miles, I too would be pissed with Toyota if they didn't honor the warranty because of excessive wear as a result of living in New Mexico, or somewhere else that is excessively hot.

If the marketing material shows aggressive driving, they are showing a brand new car. A reasonable person should be capable of recognizing that aggressive driving results in excessive wear, and is thus not normal use, and therefore is not the fault of Toyota. I see any other interpretation as an intentional display of ignorance.

TL;DR - If the FR-S is second hand and developed this issue then Toyota should fix the transmission under warranty, regardless of whether the first owner beat the shit out of the car or not. But the second owner did more than go to Sonic on Saturday and should take responsibility for shit the previous owner did, and the time abusing the car that made the existing problem worse. Right?

If you really do want to go through with this (I would not), then 1) get a lawyer and 2) get off the forums. The time/money of going through with this will end up being far greater than DIY replacing your synchros.