Piper Cam Selection
 

Has anyone fitted a set of the ultimate street or rally cams from Piper to an NA engine and can comment on the results they saw?

I am looking at a simple NA build for circuit racin: 8k rev limit (stock bottom end), 2017 intake manifold (limited to stock manifold by regs), EL 4-1 headers, mild port/polish to clean up the stock castings, cams, valve springs. Was thinking the SUBFA20BP300 ("Rally" cam) but unsure if this might be too aggressive.

I have been in contact with Piper but they seem very reluctant to provide any selection advice.

I can.

You really need to be talking to your engine builder to determine what is appropriate for your application.

I know this isn't exactly what you have asked but I'll throw it out there as an FYI. Oil pressure on the standard block is known to become unreliable once you go much beyond stock redline. Also do some research on the Piper cams for our engine. There have been reports of camshaft breakages floating around.

I am my engine builder...:D. I am still in the stages of compiling all the necessary information to make the decision on cam selection and far off finalising anything. This will be my first build (have to start somewhere). Background: Mechanical Engineer. So if you have any info you would can share it would be much appreciated. The more technical the better :P.

It seems oil pressure is an issue above 8200 RPM. I will be monitoring oil pressure and raising the limit to somewhere between 7800 - 8000 RPM. Hopefully the rods hold up.

Flowbench your heads, figure out your flow and flow requirements, make sure you have the header and manifold to support the flow, and then pick your cam.

Well I am limited to the stock manifold so I believe this to be the limiting factor. As for head flow I have been running off FBM as target figures:

Exhaust Flow @ .500 = 220

Intake Flow @ .500 = 305

Exhaust manifold - Only limited by the imagination, Ace, SME or make my own if need be.

I am starting to think the ultimate road is the safer bet. Can sit here and do all the calculations and research in the world but until they are installed I wont know the result.

Hence why some one with real world experience would be nice to chime in but no one wants to open up including piper.

It does seem frustrating even from reading this post. I suspect you are asking a question that nobody has the individual experience or knowledge to answer hence the marked reluctance to actually provide any useful information.

You may just have to suck it and see:iono:

Exactly how I feel lol.

I was hoping Piper or their distributors on the board could chime in with something but evidently not. Only testing is the German guys who broke 2 sets. They appear to be largely untested I guess, even pipers response via email

"We do not have any dyno test results in house as we are a manufacturing plant, but I can request some information from previous customers supplied"

Never came back with anything in the end.

This was supposed to be a stepping stone to a larger project but looks like I will have to go further down the path of education on cam design earlier than I had hoped to meet my needs. Probably better to get something custom made locally.

Have you spoken to @Tim Radley he seems to have some experience with Piper Cams.

See this thread: http://www.ft86club.com/forums//show...t=91080&page=2

Good find! I think id be best with the ultimate road and hope the 2017 manifold flows better.

Do you have any knowledge of cam breakage besides the incidence with the German video that is listed on one if these. Threads? Not being snarky, but I have piper cams going in a built engine as we speak. I just want to read about any other issue, as I have seen this statement made before, but am only aware of that incident. I want to know if I bought the wrong brand!

@bju90 I am using the stg3 cams in my built motor. The results were disappointing. The shape of the torque curve did not change from stock. Current theory is the intake manifold is the bottleneck.

Pm me if you want more specifics.

Any input on one of these cams with FI??

Read this?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91080

CSG does, but the information is proprietary, and reserved for folks getting engines built by CSG.

It's unfortunate, but this level of information just isn't something that can be given away for free; the R&D cost in building multiple sets of heads and engines approach 6 figures, and is used internally for the folks that support CSG.

http://counterspacegarage.com/csg-fa20-4ugse-gt86.html

It looks like an isolated case from what I have read. On the other discussion posted it does appear they made some changes to the camshaft at one stage but was a bit vague.

I saw your other post. With lowered static compression ratio on the higher duration cam you may have had too large of a negative effect on dynamic compression. I have sent you a PM to get some more details.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111954

Celeks post about the dyno comparison of the 2017 intake manifold could be promising. I wonder if some throttle body spacers to increase plenum volume might make a small difference at high rpm.

If I can get 200+whp (210whp would be nice) and keep the torque from dropping off sharply after the peak and raise the rev limit to 8000 rpm I would be happy.

2017 intake manifold, stage 2 cams and some decent headers to match should hopefully get me where I need to be to be competitive compared to the MX5's already running.

I understand not giving away R&D for free but staying 100% silent is a bit extreme, especially when you are a supplier of the product in question.

A simple response along the lines of people finding the stock manifold to be a limitation and the stage 3 cams might be too aggressive for your setup would have been more than enough information.

I am in Australia, far far away from you. So getting engine work done by CSG is quite impractical. My goals also were for a simple build to get some mild improvements. Therefore investing any further in a full build was not the aim at this stage of the project.

Had you have provided me with some information or guidance then I would have been more than happy to purchase the cams from CSG, fit them to the car and provided the feedback with the set up I had mentioned. This information can then be past on to the rest of the community. Something which could have led to a greater uptake on the Piper cams through CSG both locally and state side. Instead I see no benefit purchasing a product from CSG when they are not willing to provide me any information or guidance on selection of the correct product.

I am not trying to be narky but I just don't see the logic in the route you have chosen. Each to their own I guess.

Most people that order cams are of the "Hey, I want cams from you. Which one should I order?" variety.

Several of those have replied in this thread already.

Engines being shipped around the world is a norm.

Since you want free information, here's a key tidbit for you: If you're not running a standalone, don't bother with cams at all.

I've purchased from CSG, and their customer service is second to none. They also go the extra mile in working out problems and developing a good setup. Just FYI!

If the overall torque was down but the shape of the curve was flatter towards the end of the rpm range (8.2k redline) I would be inclined to agree. But that was not the case. The drop off at the end was the same as tuned stock cams.

Is that not what I am asking? Title of this thread: "Piper cam selection". I simply wanted to know which cams I should be ordering. I even sent an enquiry through your website mid week asking that question as when I started searching CSG came up as a supplier. No response was given. All I wanted was a point in the direction of which, if any, to order.

Hi @bju90, I got an e-mail from an Australian e-mail and I suspect it is you. The e-mail is in work right now but I have been severely preoccupied with a lot of meetings. Your e-mail is regarding Stage 2 and 3 correct? Thanks!

Yeah that is me. Since the email I have done a bit more reading and will be using the 2017 intake manifold instead. I think I have detailed the limitation of what regulations let me change in the email. If you can help me make the decision then I am more than happy to send the business your way.

I understand the value of information and want to support those that support me and the community.

If I need to purchase more components to make this worthwhile then I will consider the cost vs. reward in my budget and come to a decision.

Plonker with an enhanced self importance is what I'm thinking.

You have come across as an arsehole

I haven't. I had read of people who have looked into it closer being concerned. I haven't looked into it any further as I am not ready to look at cams yet. I just figured it would suck if someone, who unlike OP, bought some cams without doing their due diligence and had no knowledge that their had been at least one failure.

Any chance you could post some details or even a dyno sheet here? There is precious little info on the internet about how different cams effect this motor.

From what I read on another post that engine was built for FI and was run as NA for a little while. Probably not an indicative comparison NA.

From everything I have read/been told with trying to push more power NA it is the intake holding back the engine at high RPM. Will be interesting to see some results from CAMS/Bolt Ons for the 2017 intake as it appears to shift the peak power to the right slightly. Other than that there doesn't appear to be an affordable intake option on the market.

The engine is pretty well sorted with just bolt ons + E85. Useable torque curve with 200 peak WHP is nothing to complain about... 250+BHP would be nice though.

Breakage issue was fixed this is why it took me 9 months to get cams. They had redesigned the casting completely

What if you could make the same power without E85? With enough flow (and managed properly), the same power can be achieved with less stress and lesser fuel. Many Subaru enthusiasts would say impossible, except Honda has been doing it for decades already :)

But seeing engine choice in new type-r i guess even for honda, with it's best inline-4 NA engines, it got too hard to keep up in game with stricter and stricter smog regulations/standards. In that light i'm not that sure that FA20 couldn't be more efficient if the regulations were more laxed, and imho comparison to forced induction engines makes it too undeservedly devalued, while in reality it's efficiency is rather remarkable, even while conforming latest regulations.

Irony.
I know it's off topic but have you seen the amount of free information CSG Mike has given out on these forums?

Stick to the 2013-2016 intake manifold over the 2017+ IM. ;)

The best line I have ever heard about our competition selling product was, "This product was validated by CSG so you can expect it to be good. PM for price." :popcorn:

Piper Cams Ultimate 285
 

I’m running Piper Cams 285 Ultimate and the midrange is awesome. Talk to your builder for valve clearance. You want these done right. Also put the best valve springs(Nitirited or Titanium)and port your heads. 9000RPM

Are you boosted?