Upgrading from RCE Yellow AutoX setup to coilovers... questions
 

So I'm no longer the AutoX chair for the biggest collegiate sports car club in the nation... and now my job means that (for a while) I won't be able to track or AutoX. However, I'm making really good money and will be overhauling the car. I'm getting a JR supercharger in the next couple months but I want to upgrade my suspension first. My options are, in order of preference (currently, feel free to sway my opinion... with science, not mere conjecture):

HKS Hypermax SP (the more aggressive ones, height and damping adjustable): ~$1600 with camber plates included

Ohlin's Road and Track's: ~$2125 + TBD camber plates ($350ish?)
>do these even come with camber plates? How many clicks are they adjustable? Honestly I have had more trouble finding concise information in these than I should...
About tied with:
RCE Tarmac 2's plus TBD camber plates: ~$2650

Am I missing any good options in this range? My commute to work is 16 miles of pristine curvy canyons so I have no intention of skimping on suspension.
Do any of these options require adjustable end links for lowering (only intending on going down about 1.1"-1.3" from stock, or .2"-.4" lower than the RCE yellows. I'm also probably going to swap up to RCE hollow swaybars IF I CAN FIND A FREAKING SET IN STOCK... any setup I get will also be corner balanced and set up to my preferred alignment specs.
I'll be running 235/40/17 Dunlop Direzza Z2 star specs as my tires (maybe 245/40/17's in the rear when I add a supercharger) half the year, and AS3s' or performance snow tires the other 4-6 months.
Suspension engineers, lend me your wisdom.
Please tag or quote me in responses so I make sure to check them :popcorn:
Thanks!

That's quite a range in spring rates.
Ohlins 4k/3k
RCE 7k/7k
HKS 8k/8k

Given your plans I am thinking that 3k rear is too soft especially when taking motion ratio into account.

If I were living there I would take the RCEs any day for the following reasons (which are all gleaned from reading, no personal testing of any of these dampers).
1/ Feedback on these dampers has been very positive.
2/ RCE is in your general area (450 miles is nothing) and you won't appreciate local support until you need it.
3/ RCE have given tremendous support to this forum.
4/ The Tarmacs are 2-way adjustable. 2-ways take more time to dial in but the rewards are there once you do. It is not difficult (I am speaking from experience) and I think the extra effort worthwhile.
5/ Feedback on these dampers has been very positive.

+1 to Captain Snooze, the Ohlins have softer springs than your RCE Yellows so odds are you won't be too happy with them as an upgrade, they'll probably be great DD but when you hit the track/autox you might be a touch disappointed.

RCE has the best forum rep hands down, closest thing to an easy button for coilovers for autox, there's also Fortune Auto and Feal for <$2k coilovers with appropriate spring rates and a modicum of success from what I've heard. I'm sure others will chime in.

People autocrossing STX on 245 RE71R's and BFG's have no problem overdriving the tires with just a header and tune, I bet you'll end up on 255's or 265's once you start driving the car at 10/10ths again.

Really the question is if you plan on getting back into the performance driving world and want to buy one setup geared towards that or if you'll be happiest with a DD friendly setup that may leave some performance on the table IF you get back out there again.

If it's the latter I say stick with the RCE Yellows and spring for alignment goodies, more camber up front does wonders to improve grip. Depending on how you feel about them now of course.

@Keenercarguy

Everything @Captain Snooze said. If you'd like another option that is successfully campaigned also look at RS*R Clubracer's

$2199 from many great vendors (86speed, CSG, FRSport, Racersline)
8K/8K F/R
Monotube
36-way Single adjustable (F/R)
Camber plates included

http://www.rs-r.com/product/scion-fr...oilovers-2013/

Good stuff, yeah once things at my new job get a bit less insane I'll probably get back into the competition game again... but I'm honestly fine taking a small loss now to upgrade to a setup that's more adjustable sooner (IE the HKS' for now). I really like the RCE yellows but I think it's time for camberplates and I'd like better dampers than the stock struts... if I'm going through all the trouble I want to get something at least one way adjustable. I'll drop the Ohlin's off the options: totally didn't realize how soft they were.

Updated post, removed Ohlin's but added Fortune 510's

You could grab some Koni Yellow's and camber plates for OE suspension and keep running with the springs. Probably won't be hard to unload the Yellow's to a local 86 autocrosser if it's not quite enough for you when the time comes to start running hard again.

But I get the idea of wishing you had a bunch of knobs to turn. It's easier to get suspension wrong than it is to get it right imho so expect some tweaking for any setup you end up with.

I cant speak for the other coilovers here because I havent tried them and I cant really compare because I have only tried the fortune autos 510. But I have to say that they are the real deal on track. Get the spring rates that suit your needs, they will be valved accordingly and the adjustement has a very noticeable effect. They are rebound adjustable only, compression is fixed, which isnt a bad thing but rather a good one (double adjustables is better, if you know how to adjust them to each day's conditions and road surface). They come with camber plates on front (pillowball), and alu mounts (similar to raceseng) in the rear. They have a short travel but the shocks are really good. Track times are around 2 seconds per minute lap vs stock suspension on the same tires. They can go really low if you want them too, like 2+ inches low, or stay around stock ride heigh.

Edit: relevant video (not an FRS, but the concept still applies)

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ne9L6zFqio"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ne9L6zFqio[/ame]

Just to add a bit to this - I'm on RCE T2s and without using camber plates we were able to get -2.5 camber out of the front using just bolts. You may not even need camber plates if that's within your range, so you can save several hundred there for now and add them later if needed.

Plus it rides nice on the stock rubber strut mounts.

I can get -2.2 using just bolts on stock suspension at stock height. IIRC -2.5 should be doable on stock with some lowering, due natural camber gain from lowering. Sounds about the same. Imho would be nice to have bolt holes in T2 to be drilled for a bit more camber, so that with camberbolts it would be upto -3 to -3.5

I have been tracking/Autocross on RCE Yellow+OEM Struts (-2f). Im very happy with it current set up,

A while back I found a good deal on a set of HKS Hypermax SP.

However I cant give you a review on them because Im waiting until next year to throw them on along with sticker tire, im hoping to get more seat time under my belt before i do so.

@Keenercarguy this is not what you want to hear, but for aggressive road use I think you'd be better served with the RCE 'Yellows' you currently have paired with Bilstein B6 dampers and camber bolts. It's a flexible system that will work really well on the street and take you a long way when you add camber plates and rear lower control arms at a later date if you decide to compete again.

That said, if you're dead set on getting coilovers I'd suggest the RCE Tarmac 2s from your list of choices - they're a true two-way damper that everyone seems to really like.

Another option is to buy this guy's MCS singles:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119292

I own a set, so I speak from personal experience - these are serious coilovers that offer exceptional damping and wheel control, can be converted to two-way units in the future, are fully rebuildable, and are supported by a company that really stands behind their products. I bought mine secondhand and Lex Carson at MCS had me send him mine, ran them on a dyno, tore them down, inspected everything, replaced anything that was worn, and charged them with nitrogen at no cost to me whatsoever. I'm not saying that he'll do the same for you or for anyone else, but my experience with MCS has been epic. If you do buy them, I'd suggest replacing the rear shock mounts and I personally don't like that he's running H&R rear springs, even though his rates front and rear will likely work really well for you (I run square Swift 8K springs, but I'm on Maxxis RC-1s). You'll be astounded at the comfort and ride quality, and for the street you may find that you can stick with the factory anti-roll bars - I did. If you have any questions about the MCS units, feel free to send me a PM.

I missed this the first time around. You shouldn't need adjustable links at that ride height.

Weird question: anyone know which of these is the narrowest spring/springperch? Probably going to 17x9 +45 RPF1's and spring perch clearance with a good 3* of front camber is somewhat important. Won't necessarily change my top choice list but I'm still curious.

Honestly really liking the fortune 510's right now, but the RCE's are basically tied. I like the more simple adjustability of the 510's since I do so many mountain drives right now.

Anything with a 2.5" id spring or less should be fine, after all +35 clears stock struts so you're only hunting for 10mm more clearance, about half an inch, which coming from 90mm springs and perches, boom, you're there with just about every aftermarket coilover running a linear spring.

With the 45s you'll rub the wheels on the inside at full lock, it clears with a 5mm spacer but I know that's sketchy on stock studs, a 3mm might be enough but idk, you could always just be conscious and not go full lock when driving around on the 9s.

Depends your style and the car usage. Will you use the car only for canyon driving or also for autox/track? Do you prefer the car more flat and do you fill more confident like that? As others mentioned, Ohlins have softer spring rates and will give a considerable body roll. This does not mean that they will NOT grip. You'll just ride more on the tire sidewalls and if you are doing many laps, your tires will eventually give up because of higher temperatures.


Done :)

Avoiding full wheel lock on 45's hasn't been enough for me to stop rubbing. Just had an AutoX event yesterday and noticed some pretty bad tire rub on the inside of the fender liner. Raised the ride height 1/8" and added a 3mm wheel spacer and will see if that helps. Have a feeling I may need to raise the ride height more, but don't feel like getting another alignment anytime soon.

Extended studs in the front are pretty easy, maybe worth the work to run a bit more spacer.

I already have ARP extended studs on all four corners

How low are you? What coils/springrate/front-camber?
I'm likely not dropping the BRZ more than 1.25 inches, I'll be running 235/40/17's Z2*specs in the front for steering feel (245's in the back), and probably about 2.8* of front camber. I don't think I'll rub with those specs

I do really like having a flat car honestly. I'll mainly be using the car for mountain runs and AutoX currently. HPDE starting next spring

I can put my finger between the tire and the springs, running 17x9 +35 wheels with 245/40 RS4 tires and around -3.7 degrees of camber. This is on the FA510 with swift springs. I believe any 2.5" spring should have similar clearance so I think you will be fine, at worst, a 5mm spacer would be enough.

Thanks!
What springrates did you go with on the 510's? How do you like them?

I was dropped 1.5" from stock on RCE Tarmac 2's with the 400/400 spring rates. Using the crash bolts to get -2.8 camber up front.

5mm spacer and mine don't rub under any circumstances to my knowledge. I would love to know if the +3 is enough though.

I went with 6kg/8kg (front/rear). With rebound set equal between the front and rear, the car understeers, so I cannot imagine what people going with equal rates front/rear or even higher front are experiencing (understeer city?). With around 2 to 3 clicks harder in the rear, the car is very neutral (slight understeer under throttle, rear moves slightly under turn-in with brake small brake pressure). They are a godsend on tracks with smooth alphast. You can attack the berms too, provided they are not huge, but I seem to be faster barely clipping them rather than going all over them (according to lap times). On very bumpy tracks, I need to run them softer or the car hops over bumps. Having rebound cranked to the max makes quick transitions really easy, you dont have to "wait" for the car to switch around basically.

Driver skill aside, I run similar times on 245 RS4 tires to one of the more experienced drivers in our group, who is running RCE T2s in 255 nittos NT01. His car seems better composed going over berms and big bumps, I have better exit speed (from the apex and on), it seems like I have more traction coming out of corners, or he is leaving traction on the table.

Edit: stock sway bars, as I think its worth mentionning when comparing suspension setups.

Even spring rates and larger front bars are usually better for Autocross due to the very quick transitions. From what I've seen track guys prefer more rear bar and/or spring rates. I guess a good Autocross car doesn't necessary make a good track car and vice versa.

I'm not convinced of that yet. (After all, there was an article by Pobst with a BRZ on RCE T2's with 400/400 who loved it on track)

It seems like many fast autox guys (who don't broadcast their setup online) are stiffening the rear a touch, sometimes via swaybars, maybe not enough to compensate for the motion ratios, but I think the square spring rates will fade out of favor for competition use.

Even spring rates is a solid starting point but I'd be surprised if it was the ultimate setup. I can feel the rear lagging over road bumps, it can't be the most planted setup out there.

The stupid amounts of testing I would do if I had time and money :bonk:
:sigh:

I think you are right. I only do track things (HPDE and time attack), so I cannot speak for autox setups, I guess I should've mentioned that, my bad.