2017 civic Si vs....
 

http://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sit...ee-quarter.jpg

we all know the twins are gona be more fun to drive,

what about stock for stock autocross / general performance?

the price range is really close too,

I quite like the new 10th gen body style.

It's tough to say... 190+ ft/lbs of low end torque sure sounds nice...

and that's before the aftermarket frees up the down pipe and tuners get a hold of it. But I'm still enjoying having a RWD car.

I hate that motor.

I hate that spoiler (both 2dr/4dr tho 2dr is worse) - it's like they saw the '17 BRZ design and copied it, then ruined it.

I hate the over styled body.

I've owned 15 Hondas, 8 Civics, used to be one of the biggest Honda brand advocates, ran several websites devoted to them - and I just can't get behind anything they're doing anymore. They've completely lost their soul.

I've become the bitter "ex" that shits on everything they do.

Already done. They make 240hp / 300lb ft of torque on the stock turbo with an e-blend.

And I don't even care. It's still a stupid under square Honda Fit motor with a pea shooter turbo strapped on that doesn't rev.

Ugly. And the civic interiors I always found to be cringeworthy. Plus FWD

What are your thoughts on the Type R? :scared0016: :popcorn:

I would be ok with it if it didn't look like every ricer boy's wet dream. I'm a self-admitted ricer, but I don't go that hard in the paint - and I have a hard time with anyone who does.

And the expected price is outlandish for a Civic.

I may be in the minority but I do like the Type R (from a styling perspective). I don't know what has gotten into me either. The more I see it, the more I like it. It hits my inner ricer right in the feels :sigh:

Ya but is a world where even a Prius looks like it wants to devour your children it is sort of the norm.


http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/...ont-end-02.jpg

Honda applied carbon fiber vinyl to the lips on the CT-R to make it look carbon fiber....

Come on man, that just makes me wanna :cry:

My first sporty car was a FG2 Civic Si and I loved that car. Just I/H/E + Flashpro transformed the car and it felt unreal to have an engine at 100k+ miles that could rev up to 8600rpm day in day out. The chassis was also the stiffest that I had ever driven.

Although they had to drop the revvy NA engines due to emissions and fuel economy standards, I bet the engine is still silky smooth and reliable. The interior should also be much better put together than the BRZ.

I keep seeing one parked next to my apt and IMHO the new Civic looks better in base trim than in SI trim. The less fake vents the better. It is also much sleeker and looks lower than the previous gen, so that's also a plus.

It has similar power/weight to our cars, but I would put my money on BRZ for both autoX and track performance (assuming same tire/wheel combo).

This is kind of a stupid point, but the new Civic Si engine bay also lacks the sex appeal of previous generations. K20:wub::wub:
http://i64.tinypic.com/207t85g.jpg
vs
http://youwheel.com/home/wp-content/...c_Si_LA_11.jpg

:clap:

I owned an 06 FA1, 08 FG2 and 11 FA5. Them feels.

From a performance and driving purity point of view you'd have to be high to pick the Civic. And that's coming from someone that's owned a Honda product of some kind continuously for over 20 years.

2017 civic Si vs....
 

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5c9a3f23b6.jpg

Especially if you convert the FG front and rear end to the FD2 my favorite gen Civic of all time I hated how Honda would always gimped us with watered down versions.

I also at one point owned an 06 FA coupe as well such a fun car to drive until I sold it for a CL9 TSX.



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Well, I think it looks like a fun car. I really want to drive the SI and especially the R. But, I still think there are better FWD cars to play with. As for a DD they would both work depending on what you want. I don't like FWD cars much, but I would still like to drive both of these. I would like the R to be the FWD car to change my mind. Like how a 1LE Camaro, made me buy a 3900lb cow and actually enjoy driving it around the track.

The R reviews I have read mention understeer, quietly but they do always mention it. when you read between the lines and get past the cool, new kid on the block rhetoric, It seems that the car has quite a bit of understeer. It may turn in more aggressive than the Golf R, but it has been noted to understeer quite a bit. The new suspension arms up front seem to get rid of torque steer, but no Bueno on understeer.

Now maybe I am blowing the understeering thing out of the proportion. But when a car is new, anything that is not liked is mentioned quickly and then glossed over by some counterpoint by the magazine. But a year later, when it isn't the new car, they are trying to sell....You hear a more honest opinion on a cars shortcomings.

Still, when you are asking almost Focus RS, STI, Golf R money. And you are FWD and likely lighter than all the other competition, with all the go-fast looks...then I don't want to hear about understeer.

Still something about this car, has me intrigued. Maybe it is that Honda is finally making something fun again, maybe its me being hopeful of a new S2000. And Honda has lost their excitement, and I am hoping despite the R's possible flaws, that Honda may be taking a step towards making some fun cars again.

I think I've just gone past hope, to jaded. It's not a feeling I like having.

Would I love for Honda to build something reasonably priced, RWD, 2 doors, coupelike - yes - I would. Would I buy said car - most likely - yes, I would. But Honda hasn't built a RWD coupe that wasn't an NSX since the old S600. So... it's not going to happen. I like the S2000 a lot, I owned one for a short time, but I can't own one again. I'm too tall, I didn't fit in there, and I wouldn't fit in a new one either. I need a coupe, for my safety.

Yep. Wouldn't hold out much hope they will resurrect a a RWD. Looks like they are going with the same plan as Toyota and trying to bring back excitement by dressing up their high volume sellers and screaming "WE ARE NOT BORING. LOOK JUST LOOK. NOT BORING. REALLY IT ISN'T!" into the wind.


Coincidently enough the stuff Strat linked about Toyota this morning seems to apply perfectly to Honda as well.


"USA Today reports that Toyoda admitted that the company still has “room for improvement,” which means the Camry (and its other cars! Did you know it makes other cars? It does!) could get wilder—especially with $1.3 billion dumped into its Georgetown, Kentucky plant where a lot of the Camry upgrades will occur. How... wild! Just like Toyota these days"


http://jalopnik.com/toyota-please-st...ing-1795100473

Around a corner I'll take an 86, everywhere else the Honda probably does pretty damn well, especially straight line with the turbo (hell even the non-Si 1.5L tuned probably roasts an 86). I don't see anything that would make it great for backroads/autox (suspension design, weight, tire clearance, etc.)

I'll echo @brzaapi on everything else, I'm hopeful this thing is a return to form for Honda, but initial reports aren't too promising, good, yes, but only a small step on a long road back up the hill. I want the Type-R to be the best FWD can be, but it sounds like it falls short and we must resort to looking back almost 20+ years to get a great handling FWD road car.

They did, just not for Americans.

http://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sit...-in-motion.jpg


Frustratingly I think Honda CAN build the cars we want, and they could do it without any pain on their end (not like the long hurdle filled gestation period the 86 had) but don't out of fear that they won't sell well.

This has been the case for the last 15 years.

- They could have, but never did, put the J series in a RWD platform. It's an excellent, revvy V6.

- They could have (and fucking should have), put SHAWD in a sportscar. 4-cylinder or 6 cylinder, I don't care. Why the fuck didn't they do it!?!?! It was world beating AWD technology and they just relegated it to stupid overweight sedans/suvs.

- The most glaring stupidity is that the K20 never made it into anything RWD. One of the most gloriously engineered motors ever produced - and all it ever saw was FWD. Just mind boggling.

There was so much opportunity, and they just didn't seize any of it. It hurts my insides. Oh the cars we could have / should have experienced. UGH.

I just hope the 2017 si isn't like the previous model. My wife has a 2006 civic coupe, and I HATE driving her car. Everything from the steering wheel to the seat, the console controls, and the stupidly extreme slant of the windshield. As if blind spots weren't bad enough in the rear with C pillars, they had to make a couple more in the front as well.. which is what the A pillars on these civics have become. :thumbdown:

I may be a bit bias since I dd'd an FB6 (2013) Si for a little over 2 years, for a DD it was perfect, the KA24 made a great power to weight ratio on that chassis, I didn't feel like it lacked torque, (it made 170 @ 4400rpm), what it lacked was a little bit of a top end - I am not asking for 300, but I felt like if it had 230-240hp up top with 170tq it would have been near perfect.

I will definitely wait to make any judgement after I drive the new Si, but I feel like they missed the boat on the new generation, should have squeeze out 240 ponies, didn't alter torque much. I know aftermarket can fix that, but there is a reason an engine puts out what it does, whether its longevity/durability or fuel economy, when you start messing with factory power figures you are altering so many variables that for a daily driver its just not worth it.

My chief concern is this;

They now entered the GTi/ Focus ST arena and they are definitely outgunned and outpriced, it will be interesting to see if the driving dynamics will redeem the relative lack of power vs its competitors.

The motor with the si tune makes it feel like a rocket. Very similar to the Fiesta St in power delivery. Butt dyno says definitely faster that the twins in a straight line.

Inputs are all solidly in the "good" category. Not quite as much feedback as the twins.

Rev hang is present and annoying when shifting like you stole it.

I unfortunately have not gotten to hoon one enough to comment on the handling much. Feels planted though.

I have a problem with the $35K asking price for a Civic, even if it is a Type R.

However, I can't deny that it's really damn fast if it can pull off a 7:43 lap time around the Nurburgring.

The $35K pricepoint would have made more sense if the CTR had SH-AWD for sure. Still don't know why it wasn't included but clearly the engineers know better, so I won't question their judgment.

If they are confident enough to sell a $35K Civic, they sure as hell aren't (or at least shouldn't be) worried about a $35K RWD coupe with the same engineering.

It isn't given a K designation, but how much do the F20C and F22C motors have in common with the K-series line? I was always under the impression that it was somehow related to the K-series.

That's the same logic people use to shit on the 86 with 'only' 200 horsepower for $26k.

:sigh:

Some people just don't get it. And besides, this thread is about the Si, not the Type-R.

Are you saying I don't get it? I just said that I can't really deny it's damn fast if it can run a 7:43 around the Nurburgring. The only thing I can't wrap my head around is $35K for a Civic, where my complaint is the drivetrain layout, not the horsepower, if that's what you were getting at.

This thread has brought up the Type-R several times, so why can't I give my opinion on it?

Exactly, you have a hang-up on a trivial aspect of the car given the engineering that's gone into it, you've missed the point. People gripe about heavy pony cars, boring economy cars, low power momentum cars, etc. They've missed the point.

Would taking the word Civic off the car make it suddenly worth more money? Certainly not where it matters.

Off topic is off topic.

Who says I'm hung up? I'm well aware that there is some serious engineering behind it if it can pull off a 7:43 lap time. I'm not dismissing the whole car based on that alone, but go ahead and say I don't get it.

I'll look forward to seeing this car on the road, and that's the last I will say as I'll keep my mouth shut from now on since this is off-topic.

F20C motor was designed in the mid 90's (launched in 99). It was basically an iteration from the H22A. They used the FRM sleeves from the H22, changed the head design to use a timing chain and roller rockers (and the motor spins the opposite direction), decreased the displacement (then obviously increased it again for America due to bitchy journalists), made most of it forged and away they went.

K20A2 iterated from there, ditched the FRM because it's expensive and unneeded, kept the timing chain and roller rockers, used cheaper materials throughout (as their target chassis was $10k less expensive) and then added variable cam phasing on the intake cam to fix the midrange torque.

So yes, they are definitely related, but still - neither were ever sold in a RWD coupe :(

Hmmmm, all good points. And there is/was most certainly a market, an emerging market in the states for these kind of cars. Well, at least for practical AWD hot hatch(sedans too).

And nothing against Subaru or Mitsubishi or Ford, but I would like to have seen a Honda team create something around those Honda engines.

I'm right there with you. One reason I sold my S2000 was that with it's stock roll bars I wasn't allowed at some race tracks, and at the ones I was I didn't feel especially safe. The top of my helmet was a good 1-2 inches above the top of the roll bars, so one can only imagine what would have happened were I to flip it...And any aftermarket roll bar that I installed would have been too tall for the convertible top to accommodate.

Sigh :wub:

My wife and I love the Prius prime, too! We almost got into one over the 4Runner :D

We looked at them when shopping for the wife's new car (I wanted her out of SUVs). She said no way before we even got within 20 feet of it. I breathed a huge sigh of relief and we headed to Subaru.

They're definitely not for everyone. My "traded my kouki 86 for a Prius" thread would have been highly entertaining!

Twins are RWD with LSD.

Civic FWD and isn't light anymore. Do the stock it with LSD?

Si / Type-R both have an LSD.

English bro, do you speak it?

I'm sorry but imo at the end of the say it's still a *civic*

This is coming from a Dart owner?

:lol::lol::lol: