P0018 - what a disappointment this car has become
 

I have had a long love and hate relationshit with this car. While I may not feel it today, my relationshit has been mostly love and a little hate.

The hate stems mostly from the cars lower power and being unpractical. The car being unpractical i ignored and made do. I purchased a 2015 WRX to resolve the capacity issue and I use snow tires on the FRS during the winter.

The car has always been down on power but I tried hard to never let that ruin the experience. I love the cars driving feel, the steering, the flat cornering and I love the engine. It loves to rev and its all the bliss to redline regardless of the lower power output.

But, of course like most of you I dreamed of 280 whp. I take the cautious and beginner steps towards greatness by adding a full header back exhaust with custom tune. I buy high performance tires and light weight wheels to add to the drama. The modding helps my mind and helps me to admire the car more.

I dream, research and fantasize about forced induction. I could tell you every FI option available and its cost. Its pros to cons. supercharger or turbocharger. But alas, the costs, uncertainty, maintenance and fear of going this route has kept me at bay. I have read and seen too many horror stories in which some dude/gal puts 6k into their car and experience nothing but crap. Cams are not working, boost cuts off, shit over heats, oil starvation, engine explodes into a fiery scene! Was it some guy in Australia representing AVO who showed us that the car will eventually fail if you go FI due to this cam seal cover. It needed the update.

In the end I decided that if I wanted a lightweight, crisp feeling rock ship then I should buy a bike and not go FI. My bike can go 0 - 60 in 3 seconds. Is it safe and do I worry when I ride? of course. But I now have visceral and fast.

Welp, 2 weeks ago from Today my cars check engine light came on. The car is 5 mos. shy of its 5 yr limited power train warranty and only has 44k miles. Certainly this car is too young to experience a whirlwind of shit manufacturer mistakes. or is it?

I baby this car. Sure I have put some mods on it but I baby it. I dont red line often. I dont autocross and I have never take it to the track. I enjoy the spirited ride. I love backroads at 35mph with twisties. I also like long walks on the beach.

When this check engine light came on I thought surely it was a gas cap.. Nope. I thought surely it was something minor. The OFT (great device and for sale) reads the code and gives me the error P0018. In the back of my mind I say "this sounds familiar and familiar isnt a good thing". Sure as shit, i get online and read the horror stories associated with such code.

I remove the exhaust, reflash and bring it to the dealer. Immediately he tells me none of this will be covered under warranty. I explain that this is an engine related issue and should be covered under my power train warranty but he persists that it could not be. All this discussion simply from a check error code. He didnt even look under the hood.

The bottom line here is it was a push and pull with this son of a b. A heart wrenching moment for me.. why wouldnt it be covered?

1st he replaced or swapped the cam sensors and that didnt work. Code came back. Toyota reps guided him on the next step of the process. They needed to replace the valve drum assembly? as well as the ECU. week goes by and he does the work. Wouldn't you know that the check error light came right back after driving from one of their tech guys.

He contacts the toyota rep and the rep tells him to replace the same parts over again. I guesses the valve drum assembly came from a bad batch and some manufacturers got the product..Also he had to replace the ECU.. again.

2 weeks go by and I am paying for a rental and worrying that they will deny me warranty coverage. Warranty coverage for something that is manufacturer defect. Their is fucking volumes of information on this error code easily found with a search and still he is trying to tell me that at 44k miles I would have to foot the bill.

in the end he explained that the toyota rep from corporate would allow their dealer to bill for the services. The bill? $6,000. Yes, $6,000 fucking dollars for a car with 44k miles on it.

Why am I bitching? It was covered under warranty?

I am bitching because I didnt push the engine with a turbo or a s/c. I babied this goddamn car. I bought every other fucking device I could afford (wrx a bike) to respect this engine and give it a chance.. And still, this piece of shit has destroyed my faith in the platform. I no longer will ever feel safe owning this car. The warranty is over in August.. will this code come back? read up on the error.. its a goddamn rats nest of problems. People can never find the solution. THe code comes back and back and whose fault is it? the owner who puts on an exhaust or uses a canned and common tune? ?? no.. its the goddamn manufacturers and your stuck footing the bill. Thank god I managed to keep my warranty. I had to fight with that asshole day after day explaining why it was covered.

Morale of the story. Do not void your warranty in a way that it can be found and do not keep this piece of shit past is warranty period.

Maybe newer models dont have to worry? But me, I am not convinced the headache wont come back. Also, I am not convinced that the error code didnt cause some internal engine block issues. We are talking about improper valve opening and closing.. missed timing. Surely these malfunctions decreased the life span of my engine.

I dont like uncertainty, I dont like gambling. When I go to Vegas I go for the shows, the food, the view. I dont gamble. When I purchase stock I dont go all high risk, I go a combination of bonds and other low return but low risk investments.

For this time my caution paid off. Imagine if I went FI and KAABOOOM! See ya.. I know still owe 5k on a goddamn car that blew up.. not because i boosted the engine but because some manufacturer defect.. some pathetic intolerance spec on a hole or screw misplaced everything to death.

I have convinced myself that I must rid of this car before the warranty period is over simply because I do not trust it. such a shame.. or perhaps I have a panic disorder. you tell me?

Wow. Hate to see what happens when the ringlands go in the wrx.

Could it be that you got a lemon possibly?

Shit happens, then you die.


This affected the early build cars, was resolved by late 2013 and up.

Theit shouldn't be pikes of shit dished out to someone with a 13 model when things go wrong. Those pieces of shit néed to own up when they fuck up and not stick it to enthusiasts of their product.

That is a large part of my bitchy rage. So my powertrain warranty runs out soo. What if their he problem comes back? Their fault. I'm stuck wdealing with their mistakes. It sickens me. 50k miles, repairs exceeding 6k and I have to pay for it.

I was going to get a used M3 but I said "no, reliabilty, cost of repair" now this.

Price? link to ad?

At almost 5 yeas with 44k miles? I bought it new

Then again, you should never buy the first 2 model years of a car, I'm sorry this is happening to you

Thanks

I truly am fortunate enough to get my car back in working order. I'm just livid that I now feel pressured go sell it to prevent further headaches.

I just want other owners to read this and be careful. Do something before your warranty expires or take the gamble.

I haven't had much serious problem yet with my 13, but I'm only at 35k kms, but I do have a couple of things go down last fall. A gas tank gage is 3/4 at full tank, I've seen discussions on it; and a coil code 351 or something. All known/common things that happened to other people. Not to mention horrible crickets, which are gone now I believe and all other weird noises and squeaks. Not to mention half-assed quality all around. Reading along some of the disasters on here, my conclusion is, it would be really hard to convince myself to buy another Subaru. With the low mileage I do with this car, I could probably deal with older 911 and not feel bad dumping money maintaining it. I also made peace with the fact that if car fucks up big time, I'll deal with it as much as I can, maybe 5-6k tops for engine stuff, beyond that I'm dropping it like a hot potato. The fact that engine problems are often (or maybe I percieve posts this way) solved by replacing expensive parts or many parts at a time does not give me much faith, like you said.

I totally get your point and anything major that happens will put me on the same page, time to get rid of it and move on. It would be much more sad and expensive if you'd buy a car twice as expensive and have to shell out for expensive repairs.

Well, now Boofneenee, that's a shame your car is acting up......:(

It sounds like you bought the wrong car (for you) at the get go.

When you first decided to buy this car, did it have more power and was it more practical ..?? ..... and then something changed after you bought the car ... ??

Well, let's see ...... you did "mess with the engine" (header and tune).....:sigh:

So, now you have a car, that always was a disappointment, because it wasn't a WRX or a quick motorcycle ...... plus you have had some relatively major problems with it and you no longer feel it is dependable.

I suggest you sell it and move on to a car that better suits your needs.

humfrz

PS - Just for the record, readers, my 2013 FR-S hasn't been back to the shop in four years (except for oil changes).

How many miles are you at now?

About 17,000 miles, mostly short, around town trips.

Going to do some long hauling, if I can get grandma away from her grandchildren for a week or so at a time ..... :sigh:


humfrz

Oh interesting, we're at about the same, I'm at like 18,400 on my '13.

My commute to work is super short (~2.5 miles each way), so although it gets driven every day during the week, it's those dang super short extra wear inducing short trips. The ones that the owner's manual describes as "severe use" or whatever.

Yep, I hear that ...... but, I figure the car will outlast my ability to drive it ......:)


humfrz

So... just that we are clear... your were running a open flash header, and tune. Put your factory header back on, reflashed the stock tune and the dealer didn't notice and the warranty claim eventually worked out...?

Dealerships usually can't detect or don't notice tunes on the car if its OFT

Things like these scare me off the whole OFT and header route or messing with the engine in general. Some FI kits offer additional warranty and that's worth looking into, otherwise you're in open water. Considering how much money I spent fixing my last car, I don't want to spend anything on this one, which is why I bought it new and with warranty. So I'm hoping the '17 has all these niggles worked out

Definitely understandable to be mad but at least it was covered under warranty. Although I don't get why your service rep threatened that it wouldn't be covered -- would have sucked to pay a $6k bill. Only reason I can see is the header/tune perhaps.

For me, my 2013 model FR-S has been reliable even with ~2000 hard track miles (about half of those were with tune/header), but my bone stock 2011 GTI has needed some big repairs (water pump, HPFP, fuel injector, etc.) I was past the powertrain warranty but luckily VW extended the warranty on certain parts. That's one car I'm glad I didn't mod.

Ok I am old and I take responsibility for my actions. If I buy a car that is too small for what I want to hall it is not the cars fault. If I buy a car that does not have the power that I want it is not the cars fault. If I modify the cars engine and programing I know that ANY resulting problem is on me. You put the car back to stock so the dealer would not know it had been modified.
You are blaming the car the dealer and the manufacturer for your choices.
I too have a 2013. I drive the car in the summer and do track it and have modified it with no problems so far, but if and when the engine goes bad I will take responsibility.

I'm interested to know if your OFT (or any other type of gauge you had available) was providing you some sort of information that your were experiencing knock with the tune you were on? It seems that there would have been signs that could have helped you realize something wasn't right that may lead to failure?

So you didn't know what you were buying?

My Subaru dealer doesn't have an issue to install certain parts, but he is very clear on this: NO CHIP TUNING, NO ENGINE TUNING! He was very strict on this. Additionally, such an action automatically voids the warranty.

So, you pretended to your dealer that you had a stock car, the manufacturer paid the bill and now you are calling the car a piece of shit and blame the manufacturer? Try to get a lesson from this and get rid of the real crap! You know what it is.

And I mentioned it elsewhere too. Your warranty will never finish. Many parts were designed to have a specific timeline. If this timeline is not over and you have an issue, then you can still claim to compensate. Why do you think manufacturers are fixing defective parts even on cars that are 10+ years old?

the 'valve drum assembly' is $108 at liberty city Subaru so not terrible. paying 6k to replace a hundred dollar part seems slightly out of scope.

While I share the same sentiment as you about returning cars to stock before warranty work, it's important not to jump to the conclusion that the tune/header was the cause of the problem. Actually most of the P0018 threads seem to point to the opposite conclusion - it can happen on stock cars. Appears to be an issue/failure with the OEM hardware of some cars (although an aftermarket tune may bring the issue to light quicker). Interestingly doesn't look to be isolated to 2013 cars either - some 2014's have had the issue.

Pretty good explanation of the problem at 4:40 in this video:

[ame]http://youtu.be/7iw1Pdln8eI?t=4m35s[/ame]

And some threads about it:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81258
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110054
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104695
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97944

Many times a manufacturer revise a part to increase the safe limit. It is not because the part is defective and tries to hide something. What do you think to be more expensive for them? To replace a part or to re-build the whole engine?

I also checked most of the threads you mentioned. The majority had a tune or even a S/C. I 'm not saying that a stock car will never broke, especially if the engine is on the 1st year of its production. It is just that the chances are much much smaller.

I'm not saying it's a big issue on stock cars, I'm saying it has proven to be a possible failure point even on stock cars. I think I remember at least two stock cars in those threads. I'm not an expert but a lot of guys who have a lot of experience tuning this car (MRT, AVO, steve99, nelsmar) seem to agree it's not a tune-related issue. I think it's also interesting that someone with a tuned car had the dealership look over his car to fix the issue and the Subaru SM agreed to cover it under warranty. I doubt you'd see that if this was primarily a tune-related issue.

I've got no skin in this fight, I'm just relaying the same conclusion reached by all the knowledgeable people who've looked into this issue. If you've got proof that this is caused by aftermarket tuning, I'd be happy to see it.

This. I experienced this problem with my own car early on in ownership while my car was still bone stock. I was a bit worried about warranty coverage because the bumper to bumper had just run out and I had already tracked the car a few times prior to the issue coming up and the dealership was aware of all this but I took my car in the next morning before work and was able to pick it up that day after work, repaired under warranty, with no problem since.

I take my car in for routine oil changes and service intervals. It's not because I can't do it myself but it helps me build a good relationship with the people at my dealership. Because of this, I'm on a first name basis with all of the front desk guys and the mechanic who works on my car and it's a lot easier to get these guys to go to bat for you over a warranty issue when they know you.

What really sucks is this should have been a 2-4 day fix tops with zero hassle from your dealership.

A shitty dealership experience turned what should have been a bad few days into a fucking miserable month, and I'm sorry that happened to you.

That bill they came up with is outrageous, along with how they treated you, the labor time for the full procedure is <8 hours, OCV is <$75, an ECM is <$500 and a cam sprocket is <$250, even if they charge you for replacing it all twice and doing the labor twice that bill should be <$3.5k. Realistically it should have been on the order of <$2k to complete the diagnosis and repair presuming cam gear and ECM needed replacement.

Ultimately, I don't blame the car or Toyota engineers, problems happen to absolutely everyone out there, whether it's a Honda Civic, Toyota Camry or Koenigsegg, it is fixable. Sensors fail, ECU's glitch, bad oil control valves slip past QC, techs make mistakes, engineers make judgement calls that end up in an error. No car is perfect, pick your poison. For every BMW that's had three engine replacements under 100k miles there's a bunch out there that will take a beating past 200k miles without issue.

I have a car built 12/12, in January of 2015 at ~30k miles I got P0011 at the track on a totally stock car (except tires and brakes). It falls into the same TSB that was applied to OP's car involving the Intake VVT. While many like to hypothesize that tuning and exhaust puts higher stress on the rest of the system creating failures, I just don't believe it. A TSB is never issued for a problem vastly related to aftermarket. It also applies to the base Impreza.

I cleared it, continued my track day and it has not returned in two+ years, another track day since then, and two seasons of autox and I'm over 57k miles with no issue. If it came back I'd follow the TSB myself, I wouldn't even bother the dealership except to cross shop parts. Replacing the camshaft gear would suck, but the rest ain't so bad. At this point the only thing that would make me hate my car would be powertrain issues that reoccur in <100k miles.

:iono:

My parents current cars have both had their engines rebuilt at under 20k miles, now that would have me worried. But both of them are incredibly happy with their dealer support so they'll keep their cars likely past when the warranty runs out.

I never once blamed the dealer or the manufacturer for my choice in purchasing the car. I stated my dislikes and i specifically mentioned that their are far more pros than cons. I even went on to state that I bought a second car and a bike because like many here... I love riding and im obsessed with toys.

Let me get this straight. You wouldnt have a problem spending $6k to repair a part like a bad VVT drum assembly, a cam crank, a cam sensor out of your own pocket for a car so low in miles its still covered under warranty? You would tell yourself "no, I did this with my exhaust" and rule out the possibility that it would have happened to your car regardless of an exhaust system?

Maybe you are new to this car and this website but type in P0018 and volumes of threads will surface. Almost every link will take you to a forum post in which these people are getting screwed over for a widespread, manufacturer defect. For fuck sake, a lot of these problems (such as the cam seal plate) was fixed in later production models because the manufacturer identified it as one that is there fault. You would just throw your hands up for an issue thats their fault because you technically voided your warranty? Thats not being old fashioned.. thats being something else dude

no. Let me be clear again. While I have lost faith in my car long term, My car was and still appears to be running 100%. advanced multiplier rock solid at 1. nice AFR and timing. Nothing was wrong or is wrong with my engine performance. The OFT is a great product and the canned tunes are extremely reliable and safe. Shiv would not be in business of peoples cars starting breaking.

What broke was an assembly of hardware due to extremely poor manufacturing tolerances on Toyota's and Subaru's part. Plain and simple. Their manufacturing was so goddamn poor that even after the tech replaced the assembly once,. the light came back on again! What was wrong? The new part they put on was from an old production and had the manufacturer intolerance in them! The dealer actually told me this.. He literally reinstalled the same parts 2x and now it works.

They were trying to get rid of an older batch of assemblies in hopes that they were constructed correctly but at my expense of time and a car rental. The dealer billed toyota twice for the same installation.

<-- this!

It wasnt Toyota that I was mad at.. it was the damn dealer who was so quick to tell me no. I lost sleep and had to fight with that piece of shit.

I mean, his first approach was to check the cam sensors and he did that. He called me to say it didnt work but I want you to know that this would not be covered under the warranty. I couldnt believe it because in this TSB bySCion it specifically states in a red fucking box that this is covered under the limited power train warranty.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45844


It was Toyota themselves, the rep, who owned up and said "this is our fault, their was a bad batch of these assemblies, we will cover it". The dealer literally told me this.

Maybe I didnt make that clear enough to all the Goody To-shoes who think I am a monster for still getting it covered under warranty.

looking back almost 5 years ago I was a different person I guess. Today I cant see myself modifying any more.. maybe just tires. I have a 15 WRX and its fast but I hate that rev hang.. with a tune you can get it out of there as I understand the rev hang is emissions related but, I rather spend the $600 on a new bike than a tune.

People think I dont like the FRS and I did a good job of ranting my way at that angle. I really do love the car. Its more fun to drive twisties than the WRX... The lower center of gravity, the steering wheel feel, the rear wheel drive..

The FRS, WRX and my SV650 are all Stallions my stable. I love to drive them pending my mood. The FRS is a special one for me.. I will miss it but it has to go .. I cant risk paying for something so stupid like another error code due to know one elses fault than manufacturer tolerances

All this typing ... if I was told by a dealer that this wasn't covered under warranty, I'd go to the next dealership that was more willing to be reasonable.

You can blame everyone all you want, but if you accept $6000 out of pocket as an acceptable conclusion for your issues then you basically gave up without a fight.

If I were you I would've gone to two or three other dealers to ask for different opinions. At some point the smart dealer will understand that this is a warranty problem and that corporate should pay for it.

Just imagine that many Toyota dealers didn't ever have the chance to fix a boxer engine before. This is a reason to buy from Subaru or if possible make your service in Subaru where they have many many years of experience with the boxer engines! I am not saying this to you, but to all the guys which think that Toyota vs. Subaru is just a matter of aesthetics.

Exactly, this is what I am saying. You didn't have a serious issue, because you were stock. If you had an aftermarket tune, then the probability to have a real problem and a broken engine would be much higher. So, you can still enjoy your car and I hope to enjoy it past the 100k mile limit.

I have a reason to write all these. There are many tuners in Japan which are much more conservative than their Western counterparts. I was discussing lately with an engine manufacturer and tuner who is studying our engines for years. What they suggested was to keep it stock! They make an ECU tuning only if they change the internals. Why? Because they prefer to be honest and to avoid issues than to sell more.

I totally disagree, everything under the hood is nuts and bolts, there is nothing special about the piston orientation that should prevent a certified mechanic from doing a 100% perfect job regardless of if they are employed at a Toyota dealership or a Hyundai dealership, let alone a Subaru dealership.

Factory service manuals are extremely clear and concise, and the vast majority of mechanics working in a dealership have probably worked at multiple dealerships, who's to say your Subaru tech isn't on his first week after working for Toyota for 2 years? Or vice versa?

I totally disagree with this sentiment, this is an electo-mechanical failure that has almost nothing to do with the ECU tuning or intake/exhaust. In a perfect world I would expect Toyobaru to pick up the tab even if the thing was a supercharged race car.

The point of that section of my post was that this issue has nothing to do with aftermarket modifications. I also do not think this would result in a broken engine, that's like saying a faulty TPMS sensor means your tire is at risk of blowing out.

No worries... I may have missed it, but when reading up on your post I didn't see if you had been monitoring the engine performance.

And I COMPLETELY understand your issue with the dealer. My local dealer really sucked in helping fix known issues with my BRZ that were minor... I'd probably be ready to slit throats if my car's engine failed and they weren't helpful. Then again, I didn't have a tune, and I can see why Subaru may have issues with that being in play as there is potential for that to cause problems. I can see both sides of the argument there...

Let me be clear also, taking responsibility means that you knew you had voided the warranty when you modified the engine. No matter what went wrong of who to blame for the failure its self, you knew you had made changes that were not allowed under warranty.

Let me be clear also: what he did mod-wise did NOT void the warranty.

So let me get this straight.

You did several modifications to your car, each of which voids the legal warranty contract with the seller.

Your car broke.

Now you want them to honor the contract you broke, not them.

Where I'm from we call you a dishonest person at best.

Sounds like your honesty and integrity are not worth squat. My honesty and integrity are worth way more than $6000.

Time to look in the mirror and decide what kind of person you are, one that would lie and cheat and legally defraud (which is a crime btw), or one that takes responsibility for your own actions.

I am always surprised how many people on this board think it is ok to lie, cheat, and defraud.

Btw, you and people like you are the reason why when an honest person goes to the dealer for warranty repair, they get a lot of shit. The dealer gets so many dishonest people, they have to act that way.

Yes it did.

Not only did it, but he knows that, that is why he took the header back off and re-flashed to stock tune in an attempt to defraud.