MT to AT swap? Doable or craziness?
 

I'm sick of this crap MT. I've had 37 cars in my life and 31 of them were sticks and I've NEVER had a transmission have this much grinding and all around problems as this thing. For a stock car it may be fine but being almost 400hp, I'm extremely unhappy. What's the point of having a ton of power if I have to ***** shift every gear for fear of shredding something? I'm over it...

I'd ideally like to swap for a V160, Magnum XL, etc, but I'm not willing to sink that kind of money for a full custom setup into it at this point. Eyeballing eBay and Craigslist, it looks like I can find a stock Ft86 AT setup that will handle my power level semi reliably. I think I can get the AT, shifter box, control module, steering wheel and gauge cluster for right around $1000 with some prudent shopping. Probably need a driveshaft also. Anyway, is hard parts all that would be needed or does it go way deeper into the main harness and would be an absolute nightmare do pull off?

Anyone know?

And no, selling my car and buying an AT 86 would NOT be cheaper. Swapping all the existing mods over to a new chassis, taxes and licensing, etc. would cost me way more than ~$1000-$1500, assuming the swap would consist of simple plug and play factory pieces.

I'll swap transmissions with you

You are really complaining about the stock trans not being able to handle twice as much power?:lol:

Will subscribe this thread.
I am really curious what you will do.:popcorn:

YIKES, Dfyfzx you're trying to cram 400 HP through a 200 HP transmission ..... and calling it a "crap MT" ....... UGH ...... no wonder it don't like you.....:D

I'm not certain a stock AT will hold up under that power, especially driving it hard.

Will it fit ...... ?? Like they say, anything will fit if you have enough money and a big enough torch ..... :)

I'll be setten here with @Falcon .......eaten popcorn ......:popcorn:


humfrz

The AT holds more power then MT but even at 400hp ita gonna be close.

Cars used to have different ECUs for AT or MT but maybe that isnt the case anymore with dedicated TCUs, I honestly have no idea. If it was different then swapping the ECU creates a whole nother mess with keys and the immobilizer.

I could be wrong due to failing memory but if I recall correctly, the AT can hold power up to ~400, especially with a tranny cooler.

But don't quote me on that though, I can barely remember by dog's name :(

How about ....... Fido .....??

OK, lets hear from those out there that are putting 400 HP through their ATs....how long did they last ??.......:popcorn:


humfrz

I wouldn't switch to an automatic, but I hear you. Stock was bad. Now, I have MTEC shift springs, Perrin shift bushing, Whiteline transmission bushing, and while I like the notchy feel, it is still a bitch to try to not grind gears or miss a gear when taking the car to redline. Never had a problem in any other manual car (lancer, civic, supras, 240sx, accord, etc). This is by far the worst. Seems like there should be swappable trannies out there with minimal fuss.

Are you on stock power? And why it is problematic at "redline"? And did you replace the trans oil for something better?

I haven't any aftermarket bushings and have no problems switching in any gear at all. Except known for twins MT hard to get into 2nd when cold for first minutes, that doesn't bother me at all, as certainly gearbox is long since warmed up when i'm redlining on track :). Yes, there were some gearboxes, for which i liked tactile feel of gearswitch a bit more, but this MT certainly is above average majority, with long throws & mushy switches. I wouldn't ever think of putting at fault not handling well twice the projected load either.

The ECU's (engine control module) appear to be same hardware, between auto and manual. Wayno got a USA manual ecu and ran it in his Australian Auto car.


You will need to reflash the ECU with the appropriate auto rom with your turbo tune in it. You can force ecutek to do this, but you will need to get your tuner to provide you with the corresponding auto tune.


The dash cluster ,imobiliser ECU and key fobs are all part of a security set so any time you swap these components you will need to go through a procedure to sync them to security.


You will just need to reflash the ECU but to swap dash you will need to use the procedure in the service manual.


hopefully all the wiring loom is same and has poits to plug in all the auto trans control computers, also the VSC traction mich be different module and hopefully the extra console switches and flappy paddles connectors are all their . Their is also vaccumm pump for auto where the cam plate is on manuals, neutral switch instead of clutch switch and possibly heaps of other odds and ends.


you would want to do heaps of research.

So swapping to a stock based automatic is the answer.....

You're going to need the extra hardware for the center console as well. There is the extra Snow/Sport button. So steering wheel assembly for paddle shifters, center console for proper wiring/controls, and gauge cluster for proper display. On top of that, you have all of the shenanigans of swapping out the transmission.


Wouldn't it just be cheaper and simpler to beef up the transmission a little bit to handle the extra HP properly?

Swap cars with someone who has an automatic? Probably easiest.

Yeah... Probably easier(and waaaaay cheaper) to pull your mods and revert to stock(or as close as possible) and trade with someone who regrets getting an auto. Swap everything over and presto!

Best answer so far... The odds and ends im sure would add up but all the weird stock parts I'd need are dirt cheap on eBay, it just depends how many of them there are. The wiring was my biggest concern. If it was a few days worth of swapping stock parts around, that wouldn't put me off. I was aware of needing it retuned so that's another expense. It's adding up...

And to those saying I'm being unfair to the stock transmission: I agree. It wasn't designed for this abuse, however, I've had MANY hot cars throughout the years and the only other car I've had that the transmission didn't feel completely stock after adding 100+ hp over stock was my S2000. Oddly enough, it was another Aisin transmission that's closely related to the 86 box. Like I already said, I added lots of go fast bits and now I have to baby my shifts and all the joy is drained from the experience. It's actually so obnoxious, I'm not sure I could even sell the car unless it was to another die hard 86 fan that's aware of the fact it's supposed to drive like crap after spending $15000 on the car. An 86 noob wouldnt touch this car with a ten foot pole!

If there was a bolt in swap kit that would cost less than $3000-$4000 completely done and driving, I'd be all over it! Hasn't happened yet. Or has it? Anyone aware of a shop throwing Cd009, r154, t56, etc. trannies in our cars for a few thousand out the door???

You already must have spent a ton of money getting it to 400HP. At this point you might as well spend some more and swap the transmission too.

This is why though I'm really second guessing boosting my FA20. More and more it seems the better way to go is swap the motor with a 2JZ-GTE and a V160.

^ I bought it already mostly built. I wouldn't sink all that money into one, personally. 2j or LS swap is the way to go. You're going to spend the same amount if you do a built FA20 "right". I actually like the idea of a 1UZ swap but with the 2j and LS support already out there it would cost more and you'd end up with less.

That's what has been great about these forums is learning every angle before jumping head first. If you would have asked me three years ago when I bought the car, I would have said I can't wait to turbo or supercharge it.

Then I started reading basically every part on this car is absolutely weak and once you hit about 350 HP / 250 TQ you're going to need to start replacing everything from the engine back. I understand they were trying to hit a price point, but it's going to break my heart losing the one part about the car that made it great. A lower CoG.

Shame you can't hit the lottery and throw in a dog box sequential!

The amount of money some of these people spend on these cars is nuts! They could buy an NSX, Supra, Z06... I have $22,000 in my FRS and want to keep it under $30,000 all done and I'd still like a built bottom end eventually. If I hit 981 cayman money I'm going to be sick.

Hitting a price point, target weight, regulated emissions, safety requirements, ease of manufacture, standardized reparability, minimal parts stock held and probably a couple of more reasons I can't think of.
Why on earth would the car be designed for one horsepower and from the engine back be expected to hold up under more than twice what is expected?
If hitting those high numbers people need to be prepared to spend the bucks to bring the rest of the car up to the same level. Sounds like Dfy at least understands this concept even if he doesn't like the idea. There doesn't seem to be many options for built trannys for these cars yet and that sort of surprises me with the high HP some are pumping through them. Not sure if this ever went anyplace but may be a jump off point. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104875

I guess I'm not to surprised that there isn't alot out there for transmission options. 9/10 people who buy these cars are going to go poweeeeeer poweeerr mods must have powwwwwer. So thats where all the R&D and money is spent since thats what the masses want. The people that mod intelligently by building the car from the bottom up. tires wheel brakes transmission then go for the power are few and far between. I learned this mod method the hard way since I went the powwwwwweerr route on my 02 wrx with stock everything and it was a mess.

Poking around I saw that T5 swap as well. Looks interesting. But as much work as this block would take and money, I could sell the FA20 at a discount and get me to about half of what I would need for a used 2JZ. Having a daily driver, I wouldn't mind letting the FR-S sit in the garage so I can sell one motor and purchase the other in time.

This.....

@Dfyfzx, definitely sounds like you know what the problem is and are heading in the right direction, but I think it is going to be much greater cost than just swapping out the transmission. There are a LOT of associated parts as others have said. In the end though, you have to consider the entire drivetrain when increasing HP that much, one of the reasons I don't do it. I could see increasing HP 10% to 25% and expecting other parts to work, but doubling it...not so much.

Anytime this subject comes up, I always think of this ad from Porsche that best explains what it takes to add a turbocharger at the factory....

http://www.viaretro.de/wp-content/up...s-1024x658.jpg

That's a cool ad. Never seen it before.

I'm a very analytical guy and was well aware that the transmission wasn't designed for this much power, but I expected it to shift and function nearly like stock and then eventually let go. The fact they work great stock but then when you add power they cease to shift well kind of boggles my mind. The rpms and synchros I thought would be the same so I didn't expect driveability to be degraded. I fully expected the teeth on the gears, a shaft or a bearing to eventually let go.

Back on topic, I don't think I want to try a stock AT swap without knowing a specific parts list of everything that would be needed. The parts aren't expensive but 25 parts to buy at maybe $100 per part average adds up like crazy. Probably not worth it. Guess I'm holding out waiting on a shop to make a bolt in swap kit. It's crossed my mind to just sell the car and jump on an LS swapped car when one pops up...

Not sure that just swapping for a stock At would fix your concern or just postpone the inevitable anyway. Did you see the info in that link I posted? Apparently there was a beefed up MT in the works but it doesn't say if it ever actually materialized.

I've been in contact with SpencerFab already. FullBlown can also get an R154 in the car with their existing V160 kit. I'm simply not excited about the T5 or R154 transmissions but if the price was right I guess it'd be a worthy option. The CD009 or Magnum XL is what I'd ideally pick if I had my way but if they're not supported... The car has only been out ~4 years and most of that time has been dedicated to power adders and chassis upgrades. I feel like we're finally to the point where people are starting to demand transmission work that can support the power mods. Just a matter of time. The more threads that we get going begging for transmission options, the more the shops and vendors will push the technology. Hopefully.

Yea, I particularly like the tag line. Plan, simple says it all.

Sort of like the old Bell helmet ad in back in the day that said "If you have a $10 head, wear a $10 helmet". I saw that when I was 10 and its stuck with me for over 40 years.

Stock power, no trans oil change. The car could have had some gear grinding by the original owner. I purchased certified preowned from a dealership. The older lady who owned it may have shifted poorly. Fifth gear was always hard to get into. Feels like that gear was missed before, but I thought I read that this was a common issue and not necessarily mine. At redline it is particularly hard to get into some of the gears, especially fifth but even with the whiteline transmission bushing I figured the torque is causing twisting that makes it hard to get into gear. I tend to like a sharp notchy feel but I don't want to feel like im forcing poprly fitting metal parts past each other.

A fast shift from 1st into 2nd causes a grind and the same from 3rd to 4th. I've got the full compliment of tranny bushings AND that new fangled IRP short shifter. Can't get any more precision than what I've got. Fresh Amsoil fluid change. Been from stock fluid to Motul and now Amsoil. I'm confident I've done everything I can to help the stock tranny and it's still a bear when running it hard. No more money will spent on it. I'm done and out of ideas. Time for a hardware change/upgrade when one becomes available...

PAR engineering gear sets I believe, were some of the sets (of like2? Maybe?) I saw on this forum. Swapping to an AT would be a waste of time, conversion kit, along with upgraded valve body, and clutch packs would be even more expensive than just swapping a better transmission in.

Although there are still options, billet clutch fork? Velox motorsports has one, and gearsets are still a thing.

The T5 are glass in their stock form just jump onto the mustang forums. Im still waiting for a Tremec T56 swap. Some member here have done it but no vendors wants to make money and sell us a bellhousing, mounts, drive shaft, ect.

Little fact page is below. If your going to build a t5 just goto the t56 and do it right.

http://www.moderndriveline.com/Techn.../tremec_t5.htm

There are actually several upgrade options for the MT now. All you have to do is :search:

Just find a transmission guy to either beef up the manual or swap and adapt a stronger manual. You want the these transmission to handle power (torque) they were NOT engineered to encounter. Do some research and get back to us as you may be able to help others who have the same issue.

PAR gear set, Velox gear set, jackstransmission rebuilds, FullBlown v160 swap, SpencerFab T5 swap... I've done my research. Any more I'm missing? No options I'm aware of thrill me.

Well aware of what's out there and I'm well aware each options is NOT cheap. SpencerFab will probably get my money if they release relatively soon. A properly built T5 will survive just fine and be pretty low cost. Assuming their swap kit isn't crazy expensive, probably the route I'll go.

Would love it if a shop came out with a cd009 bolt in kit. Those things are plenty strong bone stock and readily available for cheap.

Remind me again why people boost this car? There are plenty of (more reliable) ways to get extra whp and torque, and the amount of money you'll spend on the kit itself and fixing all the inevitable problems the car will have will be so much that you would've been better off buying a more powerful car in the first place. This car does not need even close to 400 hp to be enjoyable.

That's not how any of this works!

The feels like a slug without pushing 300whp+, If I wanted something small and fun I would of picked the Miata. At least that has a convertible.

But... I thought I was buying a project car to void warranty's and give corvettes a run for their money sounds more fun. Being different and not driving the same damn car everyone else does around town is nice. Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes are everywhere around my house and boy is that boring! 99.9% stock, leased driven BORING! Being that one person that doesn't just blend in and has something very different gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. I only have 2 window decals on my car and everything else looks stock. I also get those cocky Mustangs, Camaros & Vetts that pull up next to me wanting to do a rolling 30 and When I rip past them *Psht, Psht, Psht....* boy does their jaw drop at the next stop sign.

Only 1 draw back about the platform is it really doesn't have a back seat and my wife refuses to take the car because I have a 7 year old that needs to sit in the back all crushed and cramped. The cars paid off and I'm fighting not buying another vehicle for a daily driver. The non STI 2018 WRX Sport is killing me. has the FA20 engine and when I flex fuel kit the car does wonders like our twins. But excluding my wife's car, my Garage already houses my Jeep TJ my BRZ and I have no room for another Project. I want to build a 12.5:1 turbo engine so bad... Now that will give me a peace of mind. But it'll never end, some new upgrade will come out and one of our vendors will take my money. That's how it works :<

I like the fact that I have saved up a whole new 86 worth of money yet I want to wait until my warranty expires(I'm at 38k) to go 300whp in 20k more miles. I guess you can say I love the car in stock form that It made me become very patient.

The helmet? Seriously replace it.