STI Owner Thinks He Wants BRZ as DD & Track Car. Thoughts?
 

Currently my DD is a lightly-modded ’15 STI bought new and tracked occasionally. But this year I’ll want to track it more (6-8 events) since the track car I’ve shared with a friend the past couple years won’t be available.

In talking BRZ with a shop last Fall that's a long-time Subaru specialist (racing, building, tuning & developing) I was told that reducing engine temps is the first consideration for track use, with a well-ducted oil cooler and high capacity radiator (Koyo or CSF, shop's not a fan of Mishi. at all off the street.) So the way I’m looking at it, I’d have to do the same mods to the STI and then I’d still be driving a car that’s 500lbs heavier than the BRZ and not RWD, which I have to admit I miss. Would be fun to have a dedicated track car, but that’s not in the cards.
They also said the torque crater can be largely eliminated by ELH, airflow mods and an Ecutek tune, because I'm only interested in keeping it N/A. Would def. consider a flex fuel kit at some point.
Thanks for any direction/advice/disagreement :)

Thoughts?

You're broadcasting?

Torque crater? Overblown...

that said, header and tune cleans up the dip. A good EL long-tube gets you gains across the board (with tune) - so does just driving the car.

You don't need a different radiator. Oil cooler is a good idea if you're pushing hard enough. Tires and alignment. Brake pads and fluid.

beyond that... read! Maybe start here and here.

^ That, car is pretty capable, it's up to the owner to decide if it fits their needs.

Lightweight impractical momentum cars aren't for everyone. I'm of the opinion that if you wouldn't consider a Miata than the 86 probably isn't a great fit.

Other than that the shop suggestions seem to be on the level, no reason for me to repeat what @cjd just posted.

Car seems to take to modest FI like a fish to water, but if you 'need that' right off the bat then you're probably better off looking into something more power oriented to begin with.

if you are going to track a lot then cooling is the biggest issue. The track group on facebook seems to like 25 row setrab units. And frankly with some of the under hood temps reported might as well try and figure out extra cooling for everything else at the same time too. But that really depends on how much you can push the car, and on how much data acquisition you plan on using to see how high temps get. Some people have reported 250+F temps just canyon carving in the summer in cali and texas.

An ace header, a tune, and e85 evaporates the torque dip, which honestly is not a big deal to begin with, since daily driving is always below it and racing is always above it.

The big question is will you miss the power of the STi? You have to be willing to drive the 86 like you stole it, and so many seem to be unwilling to do that. You rev it out and the car is just flat out awesome. But it is still 100 hp and even more torque down from an STi.

Thanks for the links, cjd, I will read. And no, strat, the STI is the highest hp car I've owned and the only AWD. Have had 2nd gen RX-7s, S2000 & 350Z, so I understand and can appreciate a momentum car with a great RWD chassis. I'd consider the new MX-5 if they made a coupe (need a "dog seat" which the BRZ has.) Also, like I said at first, intend to stay N/A. But who wouldn't like another 20hp in whatever they drive?

You have identified the issue I've been wrestling with for 6 months or so, Why. My car's power, post protune, is intoxicating and it's a truly conservative tune. But it has to be applied carefully among the "civilians" or you become a d-bag :) Then, on track you really have to watch your oil temps (I have a gauge.)
But I like a car that moves around on me and the STI is SO nailed down.
If you've seen the Chris Harris Drive episode with the gt86 from a few years ago, you'll understand my interest. And if you haven't, here's a link!
Oh, and yes, I would be more than happy to "drive it like I stole it." Fun's the whole point!

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUhLXvxlQR4&t=12s"]Toyota GT86 / Scion FR-S v Nissan 370Z v Used Porsche Cayman S - /CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - YouTube[/ame]

This isn't a STI; all you need is an oil cooler and you're good to go to track. Race pads and fluids, if you're experienced.

Effectively zero experience with EJ based platforms carries over to a FRS/BRZ/86. Your Subaru specialist shop is no more experienced than any other performance shop, unless they have firsthand FA20 experience (which based on what they're telling you, they do not).

1. If you are experiencing the torque dip, then you are driving it wrong.
2. STI vs 86/brz is apple vs orange. The handling is different and the power is not remotely comparable.
3. Depends on what you mean by track. A lot of 86 folks run stock cars with no issues (20 min runs all day long), most have pad upgrades and that's it, ready to track the car. For reference my mate runs an MY16 sti with just brake pad upgrade and it doesn't explode either. Most people think mods are 'light' but have no real idea what this means when driving at track.

I have had 3 sti's and tracked other peoples, as well as a handful of wrx's. The only time I miss my turbo awd cars is for daily use. Auto-x and road course, I have been in love with the brz.

I do ~30 track days / year and I need something reliable. The BRZ has been perfect so far. I don't like turbo cars for track use (notwithstanding those cars designed to handle it, which are very expensive). It's very difficult to manage the heat and reliability is a concern.

Your STi is a great DD. For the financial bath you'll take on swapping your 2015 STi to a BRZ (which won't be as good a daily driver), you could make a project out of finding a 2006 / 2007 NC Miata on Craigslist or eBay. I've seen them for under $7,000. Swap pads, fluid, and put a Hard Dog 4 point bar in it and head to the track. You'll have a car that is as fast as the BRZ, and you can afford to leave it on the side of the track on fire. Are you prepared to total your STi or a BRZ, financially? Will you be putting track insurance on it? A number of things need to be considered regarding what's in the cards...

You sound like a car guy with an itch. I'm there every few months. I wouldn't be so quick to get rid of the STi. Be realistic about your goals and ponder it. You could do a few events in the STi and observe other options at the track... talk to other guys, etc.

Good luck.

Buys an STI, wants another track car. Confused...

OP you definitely have the right idea. A header, tune, and E85 are the key to unlocking this car's potential. It still won't have as much power as an STI, but it makes a huge difference. I seriously love my FR-S in this form and get bummed every time I have to re-tune for gasoline when making road trips out to the boonies. One day I'll probably put a blower on it, but for now, I'm very happy with my baby.

Thanks Mike, I'll look forward to reading your sticky, you're obviously very experienced with BRZs.
TurnIn Concepts is the shop and they bought a first year FA WRX for modding development. No shop BRZ I'm aware of but they have customers and their tuner has tuned a number of them.
They only advised I cool fluids for the track, which is also what you're saying. All that airflow/tuning business was me getting carried away because that's what I'd probably do- the second year, anyway, after I've learned something about the car.
Since I'd dive in with a performance package car the brakes would be ready for anything I'd need and I might even like the Sachs suspension upgrade. While I like to do mods like a lot of guys, I'm not interested in trying to re-engineer a well-designed car or throw money in the fire. This sounds promising!

To explain, I have 12+ years of track events in 5 different cars, Calvin. I'm not in the same universe as a pro driver or even a successful club racer, for that matter, but I know the difference between street and track in several different cars with varying degrees of modification.
The STI is my first AWD platform and all the other cars but one were RWD and mostly momentum cars. I see the STI as a nearly ideal street car and I love the power, but I still miss RWD. Of course, like most track guys, I spend 340+ days per year DDing the car and less than 30 on track; and that's my dilemma. But a RWD chassis with beautiful balance that moves around a bit when driven quickly isn't only rewarding on track, it's fun in town and in the country as well. What I'm trying to work out is if the BRZ is that car.
I think my STI has too much grip, especially on track, and too much weight as well. It's a great car, but...

jmimac points out the Miata track car as a solution to my dilemma, which I got a good chuckle out of because that's precisely what I intended to do until my wife surprised me by not seeing the perfect logic of it! Ah well.
You can cover a lot of ground if you own 2 cars. But if you can only choose one, that's much harder and something has to give

Thanks fellas, your feedback has been very helpful and I look forward to more of it if I pull the trigger on a BRZ. On some personal notes:
ka-t Holy Crap, I was raised in Bismarck!
jmimac- I've done several Chin events in a 350Z I had before the STI at VIR and Mid-Ohio! Really a great organization, would love to get back with you guys sometime. Maybe in a BRZ
smg- I'm up in Louisville. If you ever drive north (or go to the Corvette Museum track in Bowling Green) I'd love a ride in your E85 car!

Fair enough if you prefer the rwd platform, but sti's should be track ready with some decent pads. I'm assuming circuit type stuff with 20 minute runs, as opposed to actual racing events where the track times are longer and no cool down laps etc.

Personally, I got the 86 because I'd lose my license if I had an sti. You guys have it lucky in USA, nanny state here in Aus!

Hey there. I went from a '13 FRS to a '16 STI. I tracked the FRS a lot (all drifting) and have taken the STI to the track a few times (this year will be better).

The two cars really are apples and oranges. The STI is a solid car for track use out of the box, but it does have some short comings. To track it reliably, you'd want better pads/fluid, upgraded pickup tube/windage tray, and possibly an upgraded oil cooler/radiator, depending on where you're going and how hard you're pushing it. New alignment also helps a bunch to eliminate the understeer!

The FRS is similar. Pads/fluid, maybe an oil cooler and you're pretty much set. The BRZ doesn't have the same straight line speed as the STI does, but, provided tires are the same, the BRZ can carry more speed into the corners. The biggest plus to tracking the BRZ compared to the STI is the difference in cost. Tracking an STI can get expensive between fuel, tires, and brakes. The heavy weight doesn't help. The BRZ is MUCH cheaper by comparison.

It really just comes down to what you want out of the car. It's largely a subjective choice. I grew up with light FR cars and love them dearly, but the fact that the STI can do everything I want at the track and everything I would ever need a daily driver to do is a huge win for me. Also, where as my STI is still mostly stock, I couldn't stand my FRS when it was stock. It was bland to me. I HAD to mess with a bunch of stuff to really love that car. I grew tired of spending thousands of dollars modifying cars, so the STI fits the bill perfectly for me.

Even with all that said, I still miss my FRS from time to time lol

When you're ready, we're here. Nobody has more actual testing experience with this platform than CSG.

I say get an oil cooler, a round of fluids, some camber bolts, brake pads, and track the car otherwise stock. Figure out what you like, and dislike, an then I can help you choose a direction for your car.

Right Calvin, my track events are all non-competitive HPDEs. The STI is a very capable car and Tyler's right about the "can do everything" part.
But overheating is a serious issue that has to be addressed and I'll need to do that this year if I keep it. I did a couple Spring events at Road America and Mid-Ohio when I got the car and didn't have any mods except an AOS, a Cobb Stage 1 tune and R compound tires. Car ran great, had lots of fun. A year later I modded up to a TBE and a protune but didn't track it because I was sharing a friend's track car all year. After the season, as an afterthought I installed an oil temp/pressure gauge in the STI. This last summer I saw oil temps high enough on track I'd have to come off after a handful of laps & a cool-down lap to not overheat. It's valid to point to the mods for the overheating issues, but I'm glad those first events at big tracks were Spring & not Summer events. And since on a 90° day last summer I maxed my oil temps just bedding-in track pads (3-4 runs up to 60mph WOT) I think the car runs hot anyway. I hope your friend with the MY16 installs a couple gauges.
Tyler, that FRS you had was beautiful. Over the years I've regretted selling almost every car I've had. But if you can't collect, you have to go thru cars. It's a rule :thumbsup:

Going to copy/paste a post I posted on a different thread a while back. I do ~15 days worth of HPDE events every season, some with PCA (now in the solo group), some solo with my smaller local track. The BRZ is very well suited to the track and feels more at home than the STI ever did. The BRZ is joyous to drive around town too; it's a very compliant ride with great visibility. The only thing I find myself missing about the STI sometimes is the explosive power and torque for DD/highway, but I don't DD it much.

TL;DR - I also previously had an STI, tracked it a lot, and realized its shortcomings:

My previous car was a 2013 STi. I had bought it brand new because it was my dream car from my teenage years and man did it bring me a lot of joy. I started getting a lot of seat time at the track with the STi - primarily at Englishtown Raceway Park, NJMP, and Watkins Glen. I did a bunch of DE events with PCA, and the STi was an extremely capable car having no problem keeping up with the 911s in my groups. Spent a lot of time and money to get the car set up exactly how I wanted it with top quality mods and man that thing was a rocket. The winter months were insanely fun; it was incredible what you can get away with by having a proper set of winter tires. After getting more serious about track time, I've been feeling that the car is just too porky and I really wanted to get into a light-weight RWD platform.

I had test driven the BRZ about 3 years ago when I first got my STi but it didn't really call to me at all. After test driving the BRZ again, I took a more spirited approach to the test drive. I swear I was sold instantly. The first track day I did with the BRZ was at Watkins Glen with nothing other than upgraded brake fluid & pads and I couldn't stop smiling. The BRZ out of the box is so incredibly sorted, I couldn't believe it. Even the street manners are so much better than the STi.

Long story short - the BRZ is slow as a slug in a straight line compared to the STi, but driving dynamics and the way the car moves around around a corner has me with an ear to ear grin every time. 1000% no regrets. I've had people say "you gave up your STi for that!?" Once you drive a twin the way it's meant to be driven, everything about the car makes sense.

Hey Yan, I remember your name from iwsti & nasioc, good to hear from you. Yeah, I've been on track enuf to feel the weight of the STI as something of a negative too. Power=great, weight=not so much- you pay a penalty on consumables for sure, like another member has pointed out in this thread. I have a lot to think about...

The STI is for sure the more usable DD and also faster around a track. Also tons of fun on the street.

In general, I recommend the BRZ for those that want to learn how to drive better. Basically, take 2 drivers of equal natural talent and no experience, put one in a stock BRZ and one in a stock STI, give them a year of events, and the BRZ driver will probably be the better driver at the end of the year (put em both in karts and see who wins).

You sound like you've got a decent amount of experience, but it also sounds like you're not out to break track records. The BRZ is just a hell of a lot of fun (light=fun) and it happens to be cheaper to run. Like CSG said...oil cooler, pads, and fluid is all you "need" for an experienced driver. You can go nuts from there but you don't have to if you're just trying to have fun.

- Andrew

Similar story here with Yanbags. Previously had an STI hatch, switched to FR-S. It's a great little car on the track, you'll love it. STI was good too, but the heavier weight and AWD understeer made it less enjoyable for me. If you know you want a RWD coupe for track use, I wouldn't hesitate to switch.

Probably worth considering the other usual suspects as well, if you haven't already (S2000, Miata, Vette/Z06, M3).

Haha since we're all sharing STI stories, I've also owned a 06 STI, and currently have a 16 WRX daily driver, as well as a 17 BRZ dedicated track car.

The S2000 is still king for pure driving immersion though.

How do you compare the 06 sti to the 16 wrx for daily/canyons?

The 16 is a better overall car. The STI is a faster car out of the box due to the performance oriented changes, even comparing a 06 STI to a 16 WRX.

I won't repeat what everyone said but having owned, tracked, and instructed in both, I could track a BRZ for years with only the mods Mike suggested (oil cooler and brake fluid) and be happy with the car and driving experience. I would want to modify the STi immediately to combat the weight and understeer. They have more power than the chassis, tires, and suspension can handle on the track and you can't use the power the way you would want to because of the other deficiencies. On the other hand, the BRZ is a perfectly balanced and well engineered package right out of the box. The BRZ will help you develop yourself to become a better driver and they're much, much more fun to drive.

I think that's a bit extreme. I feel that the 86 is a significant notch above the Miata in comfort and practicality. Mine is decently comfortable on 8 hour road trips and I haven't needed to rent a vehicle except for moving (easily fit an in-package large IKEA desk and chair). It's one of the main reasons I went with an 86 over an S2000/Miata.

EDIT: I just fit two 80x6x6" shower curtain rod boxes from Amazon (don't ask why). Can't do that in a Miata.

It's a mentality thing, not an actual comparison shop.

Many so called 'enthusiasts' proudly proclaim they wouldn't be caught dead in a Miata, phrases like 'hairdressers car' '*** car' or 'no good without an LS' evoke the kind of person that is less interested in a low power momentum car and rather is more interested in how they are perceived and what car magazines publish.

At it's heart, the 86 strives for the same thing a Miata does, the 'horse and rider become one'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5#Jinba_ittai

I get where you're coming from (it's why I didn't buy a Miata, duh), I'm not saying all 86 owners want Miata's, I'm saying that someone who doesn't appreciate the Miata will likely grow weary of what the 86 is "lacking" in the long run.

The kind of people that don't 'get it' end up selling their car, or they dump a bunch of money into it, a few become satisfied, but I suspect most end up selling for a big loss.

Since driving nothing but sports cars for the past 25yrs, I've owned about 10 and averaged 1-3 years in each. New S2000 and raggedy NA Miata among them. The Honda was the car that made me realize I didn't love convertibles, even tho I did love that car on track. But it was cramped as a DD for me. The Miata wasn't kept long, it just wasn't a good example.
The car I kept the longest was an '05 350Z. Heavy and slowish, but always happy to oversteer at my request. It was my DD & track car for 9 yrs! Threw lots of $ at it and altho it never got quicker, it did handle better eventually.
I kind of look at the BRZ as a (much) better, 2800lb version of that car, with a "dog seat" in back that's essential for me to have. That disqualifies some great cars like the new MX-5 RF- 2 seats with no options won't work for me anymore, but RWD is what I miss most.
I've come to conclude my STI is a truly great car on a platform (AWD) I'm just not that interested in, if I'm honest. The mods I've done are the consensus choices for better durability & engine protection- it's a good bit quicker than stock and works extremely well. It has a lot going for it, but it's heavy and complicated.
What the car mags call "driving dynamics" is what I feel I'm missing some of right now. The more I read and the more I think about the feedback I'm getting here, the more I think the BRZ seems to be a simple and well-designed solution to get me back there.

@JSube - I don't know much about the STI as a driver, or how your 350 performed, and I've only been a rider in an S2000, but... my gut says you may find yourself happy in this car. It DOES respond well to some simple mods, both performance and handling. It's a lot of fun stock, but really wakes up with a little more spring, a little more camber up front than you can get out of bolts and a header/tune (especially a catless header with a high-flow cat in the front-pipe, and even moreso if you can do E85)

Mine weighs in at 2800 with me in it (and ~1/4 tank) after some work (I'm STX prepped for AutoX) and oversteer and understeer are my fault every time... but I've corrected understeer with throttle, so it's a pretty good balance I think. Power is fun, but the handling and feedback is addictive for me.

If you're up for a used car, the worst that I see happening is you find it's not quite what you wanted after all, and you trade it in for a Porsche in a year or two. Probably no different even if you jump into a new BRZ, really. :)

Haha in addition to my STI I also had a 350z. Sounds like we've owned similar cars in the past.

You're on the right track with your thinking, but I wouldn't necessarily call the BRZ a "much" better car than the Z. Better in some areas, worse in others. On the track, you're right, the Twins are sharper and better balanced (also more supportive seats/seating position). But for everyday driving, I think the 350z was actually better with its useful grunt and more upscale interior. (I had the 35th anniv with leather/Bose if it matters.)

Don't get me wrong, I love my FR-S, but I think you'll be disappointed if you buy a BRZ expecting an all-around improved 350z with rear seats. I think the better comparison might be RX-8 (with pistons) or NC Miata/S2000 coupe 2+2, if that makes sense.

While I didn't have a 350Z, I've had a NA Miata and a G35.

How did you like the power on your Miata? A NA miata with bolt-ons will give a stockish BRZ/FRS nightmares in a straight line.

My NA was kind of tired I think, but I didn't keep it long enough to want to mod it- didn't give it a chance to show me what it could be, probably.
The BRZ version I'm most interested in is the '17 Performance Pkg car, $1200 for Brembos/Sachs dampers & nice wheels is a surprising bargain. I think the revised final drive on the MT cars is a real positive and, who knows, maybe even the polishing they've done on the intake manifold will make mods a tiny bit more responsive. My plan would be to get an oil cooler for track use as has been recommended to me here and enjoy the car otherwise stock for a while. I think I'd be able to do a complete airflow upgrade this year still (intake to tailpipe) and get it tuned. Then flex fuel would be the final mod in a year or 2 if I've fully bonded with the car like I expect I will- not a bit interested in super/turbocharging the car, I'd just keep my STI if that's where my head was. Do you think that plan would let me stay in contact with the bolt-on Miata? :)

Ace header + tune will be enough for you to lightly pull on a bolt-on Miata. Intake mods don't really do much. A FP and Flex Fuel will net you some more power, but isn't necessary, as I expect you to also likely exit corners faster than the average Miata, which will assist in any straight passing.

JSube, I'll share my list in case you're interested. Some have a very long list of mods, which is fine. Others in this thread have shared that not much is needed, and there's a reason why...

I watched the Chin BRZ (the one Randy Pobst drove and raved about) and another BRZ owned by another Chief Instructor (and close friend) for a few years. They both held up very well. So, I decided to go the BRZ route, mostly because I just plain wanted one. I actually purchased the RCE Tarmac 2 Shocks from from my friend prior to buying my BRZ. There's no doubt that the RCE T2 shocks are awesome. He just wanted to have a little more comfort to drive his BRZ to long haul events (Florida to Watkins Glen, etc) with a little more comfort. He's had back trouble. He bought the RCE Yellow springs and Perrin sways and found that he wasn't giving up much (if anything) in terms of enjoyment or lap time. I drove his car with that setup and promptly sold the RCE T2 shocks. At the time, I also thought that I would want to drive my BRZ to events. I'm enjoying the grip I have (see below) and it probably would have been a good idea to keep them (for me). However, I still don't plan to buy them to replace what I have.

I ordered my car from a Chin Instructor who happens to be the sales manager at a Subaru dealer. Premium car with 2 options - Trunk mat and rear bumper applique... because I carry tools and spares in a tote in the trunk, unload from the trailer, then unload the trunk in the garage at the track.

So, after explaining a few things, here's my list:

• Clear bra for track turds / pelting.
• 10 year old Perma-Cool oil cooler I originally bought to install on my first Cobra and never did. Cooling the engine for track use is Job 1.
• Mocal oil filter adapter from BAT in Sarasota.
• AP Racing Sprint Brake kit from Essex Parts. AWESOME!!! Great not just in terms of performance, but consumables. I did 28 track days last year on the same set of rotors.
• RCE Yellow Springs.
• Perrin Sway bars which I haven't gotten around to install yet. Needed for tires with grip; otherwise, with street tires and RCE yellows, I'd probably just leave the stock bars in.
• Raceseng Caster / Camber plates. Super high quality.
• 245/620-17 Pirelli DH slicks. Scrub tires. $440 shipped for a set.
• 17x9 Apex wheels.
• Schroth ASM 4 Point harness.
• Stickers for more straight-line speed.

What I might like to have / considering...

• As my car is not a DD and I have good grip...A good seat. I loved the UltraShield SpecMiata seat in my Miatas and think it may fit great in this car as well. The 20 degree layback was perfect.
• I would not mind having another 50hp. I think a 2.5L 250hp BRZ just might be the perfect track car in terms of cost, consumables, and reliability. The chassis and AP brakes can handle it.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Sub...AA8705E9-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Sub...acingKit-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Sub...gCaliper-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Sub...Caliper2-L.jpg

Parts Lists
 

Super helpful, jmimac351, many thanks. 28 track days on a set of rotors is completely ridiculous! I think for a DD that sees some track, the Performance Pkg Brembos will be adequate for me, but the real message here is how the consumable costs plummet on a well-balanced 2800 lb car. I would like that (500 lbs lighter than my STI.) I love how you've set up your car and I've noted the straight line stickers you've attached. How many sets of Pirelli slicks did you use on those 28 days?

*Any idea if Raceseng warns people off of street driving with their camber plates? I know a lot of race plates do.
*Do you have a partial or full cage and attach the harnesses on that or is it an ASM belt attached in the back seat?
*It looks, perhaps, like you haven't done any headers/airflow or tuning on the car. Was that a reliability/durability decision? There seems to be a forum consensus that headers & tune will net 30+hp and E85 would get you close to that 50hp you were wishing for.
I have another question or 2 I'll pm you on, if you don't mind

Just my 2 cents, but having driven on track with increasing mods year by year, no other car feels quite as fun as a stock 86 with RCE yellows and great tires (MPSS or grippier)
All other mods come when you start getting serious

I believe that, 200hp/tonne. The reason I'm so interested in the car is primarily the chassis & the RWD platform.
I think most of you owners probably feel like the chassis could easily handle another 30-40hp, especially with the chassis re-enforcements this year. I think having that bit of extra N/A power would keep me in the car long-term, unless I start seeing tuning horror stories (which I haven't really found yet.)