Which SC to choose: Cosworth Vs. Edelbrock Vs. Harrop?
 

Dears,

My question is:
What are the differences between the following SC's Cosworth Stage 2.0 Vs. Edelbrock e-force Vs. Harrops TVS1320.

Through my own research I found out few differences :

1- Cosworth is using OEM airbox with a looong intake path to the back of the manifold, while Edelbrockare using a massive air filter box with K&N filter that connects directly to the throttle body in front of the manifold, Harrop's TVS1320 on the other hand is in between, it has the short front connection between the Manifold and the OEM air box but with a higher flow drop in air-filter.

2- Both Cosworth and Harrops SC's use internal inter-coolers within the intake manifold... Edelbrock e-force I'm not sure if it has a similar internal cooling units.

3- Edelbrock claiming 242 WHP (I'm not sure on which type of fuel), Cosworth claims 280 BHP (I'm not sure on which type of fuel), and Harrops Claims 244 WHP on 93 Octane

That's all that I can think of... Please help me out to choose between the three... Why do you think any of them is better than the other two?

With many thanks in advance for your help.

UNREAL

Cosworth uses a smaller blower with less headroom than Edelbrock and Harrop, so I wouldn't even consider it.

As far as Edelbrock vs Harrop: there's already a thread comparing them: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2776887

RE Edelbrock intercooler, same set up as the other two, water to air intercooled. Edelbrock has 1 large heat exchanger in the manifold while the other two have 2 smaller ones

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

According to @Matt@Cosworth, the Cosworth kit can spin just as quick as the Harrop or Edelbrock kits. So the headroom isn't an issue.

The Cosworth kit is rated at the crank. It equates to around 250-260 whp.

I am biased, but I will say the reasons I chose the Cosworth kit over the others was for several reasons. Cosmetics (which is subjective of course); I didn't care too much for the looks of the Edelbrock, but thought the Harrop and Cossie looked pretty OEM.
At the time of purchase, the Harrop wasn't available for another 6 months or so, so that was out. Though I'll admit it seems like a great kit.
But the biggest reason for me, was the shear amount of R&D Cosworth put into their kit. Since I daily mine, I wanted it to be as reliable as possible. Outside of a slight tweak in my tune, there have been no issues with the kit. I think it just comes down to your budget, and which you think looks best. They are all great kits and I haven't heard much about them. Of course, I don't really pay attention to the Edelbrock thread....

Just my two cents.

Thanks man, a very useful input.
Regarding the smaller blower, I think it was picked by Cosworth on purpose as it has less parasitic effect on the engine and is easier to spin.

For me Cosworth is still a viable option, because:
1- The installer that I'm planning to work with is an authorized Cosworth dealer too, but I think he is willing to install any of the three.
2- They are the only ones of the three who went to change the Engine Thermostat... I'm not sure how would that help in the overall thermal management of the kit.

The main down points: for Cosworth are:
1- The inverted throttle position and the long intake path.
2- Bloody expensive for a relatively little gain in stock form + The fact the best fuel available where I live is 95 RON (91 US Octane), which will mean even weaker output than the 280 BHP announced by them.

This is really confusing all 3 are from super reputable companies... but each of them has different set of pros and cons:iono:


good point, I didn't know that.

Valuable input, thank you. in my previous reply I stated the pros and cons of Cosworth kit from my point of view and situation.
As a Cosworth owner, Would you comment on them please?

The intake piping, I cannot comment on if it would make a difference or not. I honestly don't know. I'm sure it could be optimized to be shorter, but given the design, I think that's why Cosworth didn't do something similar to Harrop.

As for price, yeah it is damn expensive. Though I don't regret it at all. I'd say it's because you're paying for the Name and the R&D. haha. Still, 80 hp over stock isn't too bad. Unless you're going to mad power. Which in that case, turbo, engine swap, or different car. Also, Cosworth designed the kit with the intentions of it being reliable long term. People run crazy power on stock internals, but it's just a matter of how long.

1) The TVS design available at the time of the Cossie development meant that only rear intake was possible. I agree it's not the neatest but it likely has no noticeable performance negatives.
2) The gains on 95RON on any of the kits are likely to be the same. I would say that the Cossie is ~240whp and I'm fairly certain that was done on 98/99RON.

The Cossie TVS900 is less parasitic drain on the engine, to get the higher power outputs will require to spin outside of it's ideal efficiency range, but it's said that the heat exchangers are designed to deal with this. The TVS1320 should never sit outside of the ideal efficiency range, so will generate less heat, but it's a larger blower it spin in the 1st place.

If I were to consider replacing my Sprintex, my preference in order would be:
1. Harrop
2. Cosworth
3. Edelbrock

That's based on all things; cost, looks and performance. I'm in the UK for reference.

Thank you again for your reply...
Considering that i'm living in a super hot desert environment (we get winter for like two months every year and the rest of the months are between summerish to scorching hell weather)... do you think Cosworth upgraded engine thermostat is a plus?

Thank you sir for your valuable input...

1- TVS900 Vs. TVS1320
2- Engine Thermostat Vs. OEM Thermostat
3- Drop in Air-Filter Vs. Customized Airbox
4- Short Intake Vs. Highway-long Intake path
5- Availability authorized installer/tuner Vs. 1st time installation and tuning
6- Sitting Lower on the engine bay vs. Sitting relatively very high
7- Availability of other Supporting Mod's Vs. Kit only.
8- Smog Legal Vs. ???
9- R&D time spent on the kit in a lab Vs. Actual time racing the kit daily


So many contradicting variables... and no kit is perfect or let's say 99% compliant.

My goals are...
1- Ultimate Reliability for DD
2- Tolerance to hot weather Plus low quality fuel (95 RON/ 91 US Octane)
3- 0-100 in 5 Sec
4- 350 BHP - 300 WHP
5- Stealth looking, so the incompetent dealership wont notice it immediately, and void my warranty.

Note: My Car is a brand new 2016 Toyota GT 86 AT with less than 200km on the Odo (My previous 2013 86 was totaled while parked outside my house and only had 16K km on the Odo:brokenheart:).

The tolerance to hot weather would suggest that you would benefit from the thermostat. 300+whp is going to rely on keeping things cool and having the right compression ratio for the fuel quality. I would say that all are capable of that goal if setup correctly.

I think it's a nice decision by Cosworth, but I don't think it will help lower your overall engine temperatures. I know that even during hot summers here, my car runs just fine. However, I don't drive it very hard in the heat.

the low temp thermostat will lower engine temps so it buys you head room in hot climates , it does not increase the cooling capacity but will buy you time

and the stock airbox doesn't pose a restriction until 300Bhp ( crank) and we measured no pressure drop over the 'long' intake at this power level
the throttle on the other hand does pose a restriction
I should also point out that the TVS 1320 is not capable of generating any more boost pressure than the 900 unit
yes it reaches the boost limit quicker but its the same pressure ratio for a greater frictional penalty and cost

Thanks Matt for your input on this thread...
1- The OEM airbox becomes restrictive after 300 BHP... I was aiming for 300 WHP.
2- Do you recommend a throttle-body replacement?
3- TVS900 Vs. TVS1320... reaching the full boost early means having more power in mid RPM range? I hate having the power stuck waaay up in the rev range.
I DD my car to work and low to mid range power and torque is a main target (After all that's why I chose screw-type superchargers instead of Turbos) to have as much as possible low to Med range Torque and Power.

A Couple more questions Please,
1- How much HP should I expect to get with Cosworth Stage 2.3 (1.3 + 2.0) and a tune for (95 RON 91 US Octane)?
And are you going to release a stage 3 with a forged internals and smaller pully??

1st thing to say is any power over 280Bhp is playing with fire on stock internals
some folks get away with it but its a lottery as to whether your particular set of rods will go pop or not

so yes if you want 330 bhp / 300whp then it best to replace the airbox with a larger filter element part
if you can find a larger diameter or more free flowing throttle thats not very overpriced ( cheapest I've seen is $1000.....) then go for it as it will pay dividends

and yes a 1320 will come on boost earlier than a 900 unit, its bigger
but the 900 can be spun faster to compensate

a stage 2.3 on 95 RON should make about 270Bhp

and we plan to release a forged bottom end very shortly along with a smaller pulley

Edlebrock got it right with their huge airbox...


270 BHP if I take away the ~%20 drive train loss that will leave me with 217 WHP...
those are the most expensive 56 WHP ever... around $268 per HP...
As stage 2.3 costs a whooping 15K USD from your certified dealer in Bahrain!!!

For the forged internals... when? approximately...

Many thanks for sticking with me and answering my questions :thanks:

What are your power goals? Just the 300 whp? And yeah, the full 2.3 kit can be quite costly. Then again, I have a somewhat bastard exhaust. Like my cat back. The Cosworth was just too loud for me. But the headers are awesome. Also Matt helped tweak my tune so I'm sure he'd be more than happy to tune yours if you had a different exhaust. I will give it to edelbrock for having a massive intake. I'm sure something like the perrin would work too.

I just got an Edelbrock kit installed and while i can't comment on the technical aspects i can give you my views on the kit so far. I've run it for about 700 miles so far.

1. I really like the look, i didn't want something OEM looking. I wanted people to notice that i had something different.
2. Currently not on the Edelbrock CARB tune. Thats the tune that comes with the kit and is rated at around 240-250 whp.
3. On the Delicious Flash n Go tune being custom tunes by Zach from Delicious tuning, I'm expecting to hit probably 270-280 who after the tune is complete.
4. LOTS of low end torque on this kit. I've had to learn to feather the throttle a bit when i get going in first gear.
5. Gas mileage went down only slightly from 29 mpg to about 26 mpg.
6. The build quality is solid, while there were a lot of little parts, the kit itself is super solid from what i could tell.

I'm currently running 91 California Shell. But i know people have been able to hit about 300hp on this kit running E85. If you do go that route, you WILL need bigger injectors which can be quite costly.

Hope this helps

What exhaust set up are you running? [just seen it underneath your post, sorry, ignore. I would say that hoping to hit 270-280 with the stock manifold on pump gas seems a bit optimistic to me, but I hope you get there!]

While the initial OPs question is of course valid and interesting, I would like to introduce a thought about the OPs goal of "300 HP". This is of course not a "problem" only here, but overall. By wanting just a nice number for not a particular reason other then "I have 300 HP bro" is so wrong on so many levels. But lets say our brain is playing tricks and just want a nice number. How about this? Horsepower is a retarded ancient unit same as inches and so, why not to opt for civilised target of 200 kW? 200 kW is very nice number as well, is a normalised unit and is 268 HP. You have a nice number, on better units and you can keep you internals and money significantly more save.
How about that?
:D

yeah we'll see. I'm gonna dyno it after the tune is finished.

OK most folks seem to record about 240whp or therabouts with our kit so maybe the drivetrain losses aren't quite as extreme as you may think? Also we deliberately under quoted the uplift as +80Bhp (crank) in reality its more like 95Bhp (crank)

and probably the reason the kit is a lot in Bahrain is the the exhaust cost

if you leave the stock manifold on it and fit a decent catback of at least 2.5" diameter with all straight through silencers you'll still hit 270Bhp on 93 and 260 on 91

we hope to have the uprated bottom end for sale about March time

I know the OP hasn't asked but have you looked at the Kraftwerks SC? The ONLY reason I bring this up is because if you have an issue with any other S/C (that I have found) your stuck on the road. With the Kraftwerks, its run off a separate belt, so if its not working its a ton of dead weight, but you can get home and not need to be towed.

Just a thought.

Or just carry and extra belt in the car?

My ultimate performance goal on this car is 0-100kmh in 5.0-4.8 Sec

The number produced by stage 2.3 (91 Octane) is embarrassing... Very embarrassing, no way around it, I was hoping for something better... at least 230-240 WHP.


1- That helps a lot thank you :thumbsup:
2- Wow 270-280 on 91 Fuel and on stock internals and normal engine compression? that would be great, if verified I'll go for E-Force.
3- for the look part it will go really well with my red Gt 86... I don't mind the look what I do mind (a bit) is the fact it sits the highest among all three.

Thanks again


As I mentioned in the beginning of this reply...
My ultimate performance goal on this car is 0-100kmh in 5.0-4.8 Sec
(Yes I do care about acceleration in a straight line, lots of Highways where I live, I also enjoy the precise cornering-ability on this car and the amazing steering feel too, otherwise I wouldn't go and buy the same car after my "2013 Toyota 86 S" one got totaled while sitting outside my house, now I have a 2016 Nur-Spec Toyota GT86)
I feel (Yes gut feeling only, No science) that such number will not be achievable with less than 300WHP.. that's where the 300 came from... add to that in the last 12 years I never owned anything but V8's the reason I jumped to the 86 wagon is the out-of-the-box handling and the size of the after market upgrades available.

Your assumption that snapping a belt is the only failure that can happen? Keeping a belt in the car is one thing, trying to figure out a S/C failure at a track or on the side of the road is a different story. With the Kraftwerks, you can pretty much "disable the s/c' by removing the belt. So if you have a critical failure on the S/C (minus the belt) your stuck. I personally don't have the skills or tools to diag that type of failure and would require me to take it to the shop, id rather drive my car then have it towed.

Which is why I chose Cosworth. So that wouldn't happen ;)

1- Yes Bahrain guy (Kar performance shop) was going to install the whole thing 2.0+1.3 + his labor.... But that brings a question of WHY the re-branded exhaust+ Thermostat + drop in filter + of the shelf tune is so freaking expensive?

2- I 'wanted to go Cosworth way since day 1 when you released stage 2.0, but the lack of solid numbers + the lack of dyno numbers from the consumers made me hesitant to do it... till today my eyes are at Cosworth kit... but I'll be honest, I don't have enough facts that justifies the insane cost. and I asked a while ago about if there is any validated data for stress testing this kit in extreme weather, I didn't get any.

I thank you again for your proactivness in answering my questions and for being so transparent.

You could always do the supercharger and then your own concoction of an exhaust thats 2.5" or 3"? Wouldn't you do that with the Edelbrock or Harrop?

I would say that those figures on 91 Oct/95 RON are highly optimistic. I'd expect no more than ~265whp on 93 octane without any manifold changes.

Harrop being in Australia probably has the most time spent in hot temps, however the Cosworth has been stress tested on an engine dyno to simulate hours of track time. It's well known that the kit is good at heat management, which is where the issues normally arise. However based on there being "no validated data", you face the same dilemma with all 3 options.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640...910/7fV50c.jpg

Apologies for the small image but it's the best I can get quickly. Both on UK 99 RON I believe so gives a good quick comparison.

My tune just got finished today. I'll probably get this dyno'd in the next week or si, i'll keep you updated on this thread.

1) I acknowledge the exhaust is not the cheapest and the trouble is with our aftermarket strategy is we sell to a reseller who then sells it onto a dealer who then sells it to the customer
This isn't a policy I'm happy with as we work pretty hard at making the product as good as possible and as a consequence the BOM cost tends to be on the high side for the market and this cost then gets multiplied up 3 times..... our competitors don't do this or if they do then their base cost is a lot less than ours for reasons you can probably work out
And the exhaust is made bespoke to our specification, yes Nameless make it but its a bespoke system not just re-branded

2)
regarding the lack of customer dyno numbers I believe the ones that have been published have more than backed up our dyno claims
as our power figures are corrected to ISO1585 and we don't use funny fuel or extra cold air (97RON & 25degree C)

as for testing in extreme weather, I'm assuming you mean hot ambient ?
I drove our dev car to the south coast of Spain and back in 40 degrees C and raced it around the Ascari race circuit
the kit was also run for over 300 hours on the test bed and this included a 50 hour full load test where the cycle was 45 seconds of full throttle accelerating through the gears to max revs, with a 15 second idle rest and then repeat until the 50 hour mark was reached

I don't know of any other SC manufacturer that has done this

For the Cosworth dyno, the 2 I know of were Enigma and Rally Sport Direct. Both hitting around 250whp.

I see this comment often about the KW kit... however, Rotrex SC's are not supposed to be run on the ribbed belts they use (Rotrex themselves say this), so that is a downside.

My other immediate though is... how often does a belt break on a properly installed kit.
They've solved a problem, but how big was the problem to begin with?!

I'm interested in this thread because I want a Harrop kit... but it's a fair bit more (close to $1000 more) than the edelbrock!

My dad had a Cosworth V8 conversion done on his old Ford Sierra back in the 1990's... and it was EPIC.
I personally (through the above) will agree that Cosworth quality is really great... however, the reason I'm not looking at your kit is the cost.

I am busy looking at Harrop and Edelbrock which are your closest competitors, and for a DD guy like me who is after a great experience and doesn't really care about "248whp" vs "251whp" :bonk: it's about quality (tick to all 3) + reliability (again, tick to all 3 - but the tuner in particular) + overall nice power and torque... again, a tick to all 3.

So my problem essentially is justifying paying more for your name basically.

If you guys were priced the same as the other 2 kits, then I can almost guarantee you I'd be a customer.

#Justsaying and hopefully it's something Cosworth can solve.

well thanks to Brexit you'll be getting a 20% discount at least now?