What's blocking me when I downshift from 6th to 4th
 

Say I'm cruising in 6th at ~2k rpms. I then shift straight to 4th to accelerate, but there is something blocking me from going into 4th gear. If I persist, it will go into gear without a ton of force, but its like I'm hitting a wall for a little bit.

I've tried double clutching, but I still feel the resistance going into 4th. I also rev match and the ride itself is smooth and not jerky.

The weird thing is that when I shift from 5th to 3rd this doesn't happen.

Does anyone know whats going on? Should I not continue to put the car into a gear if I feel something blocking?

I've never had that experience when driving a stick FRS. is your car modded and do you have a shift kit?

if it's stock and under warranty, go get your stick checked out.

It's completely stock and only about a month old. Also my first manual transmission so I may not know what's normal and what's not.

It's a similar feeling to when you try to put it in gear without the clutch depressed. It's like something is stopping me from doing something I shouldn't be doing. I guess I could just not be lazy and shift into 5th then 4th heh

Not all gears are created equal and without looking it up I believe there is a much larger range between 6th to 4th then 5th to 3rd. I don't think I have ever run into a situation where I had to go down two gears to accelerate though. Usually one gear is plenty for any passing needs I have while street driving. What RPMs are you cruising in to need to downshift 2 gears? If you are too low to start with then I could see needing to go down two but otherwise that is pretty extreme.

Well, first off, cruising at 2000 rpms in 6th gear, is on the verge of lugging this engine.

Your transmission should easily go from 6th to 4th, however, it might be happier going through 5th on the way to 4th.

I'm going to summon our resident transmission expert @Ultramaroon for further assistance.


humfrz

About 2k rpms. I'm usually cruising in 5th at this point, but I tried 6th to get better mpg (probabl an invalid reason if I'm shifting down 2 gears to accelerate quickly anyway).

Damnit I am tired I never even noticed he said 2000. Ya Cat that is a little low and I would be in 5th not 6th to start with so would only need to go down the one gear.

It's not something I do often, I was mostly just trying it out for a day and I got curious. Sounds like the answer is to just avoid doing this and stay in 5th at those speeds.

You can downshift two gears but the rev match can be tricky since the tranny speeds are way off for each gear. The little impact that cruising at 2000 gives you is hardly worthwhile anyway.

I had dealer flush my trans. Helped a ton.

Well, cat94, you're not driving your grandfathers old torque rich Ford. This engine runs happier at higher rpms. I normally wouldn't "cruise" at less than 3,000 rpms.

Please keep in mind that you're dealing with a NEW engine and transmission .... they both need time (miles) to limber up .....:)


humfrz

Fluid changes do not fix everything and I find it funny that is the first thing that people say to do . Pretty clear from Cat's statements it is an operator thing not an equipment issue. Every time somebody has a minor issue it does not mean there is something wrong with the car (although certainly sometimes there is).

Sounds good to me! I tend to have a bit of a lead foot when driving this car, so I'm not even sure why I tried this in the first place.

I see this recommendation quite a bit.

I'm happier driving at higher rpms too :thumbup:

I regularly cruise at 2k rpms, the engine is fine there but won't enjoy accelerating. Hence the downshift.

How many miles are on the car OP? imo the transmission takes awhile to break in, you've got a brand new car, it'll get easier and you'll figure out how to get a smooth shift out of it. Transmission also works better when it's up to temp, that may play a part in it, for a Californian there's no reason to wait for the car to warm up.

Edit: I did a trans fluid change at 30k miles, no appreciable difference going to Motul 300.

And the answer to the OP's question which nobody answered yet is "synchros"

Well now, Packofcrows, that may have worked for you ....... however, IMHO there is no reason to change the oil in this MT for several 10s of thousands of miles.

Ohhhhh........I don't mean to start up this debate again ...... :thanks:


humfrz

I think that 4 and 6 use the same syncros so you need to spin them or rev match before it will slide in. Your feeling of being blocked out is pretty much what's happening. User error.

This car has a wimpy engine with basically no torque, needs high rpms.

Any driving rpm under 2500 is useless...even on a level road.


I do understand wanting to downshift from 6th to 4th.

Some months ago I was driving at about 50-60mph in 6th gear, wanted to pass a car on a two lane. Downshifted from 6th to 5th and almost got killed trying to pass. Ever since then I downshift from 6th to 4th at those speeds...if I need the power.

1. It's brand new. I've said it many times that the synchros in mine didn't start grabbing effectively until about 8K miles and kept improving over the next several thousand.

2. Unless you're very comfortable double clutching, don't skip gates downshifting. Spread the work of spinning up the input shaft across all the gears evenly.

3. At 60 mph, fourth gear puts you in the flat spot of the hp curve. Don't be afraid of dropping into third. Wring that bitch out.

4. When at highway speed, practice downshifting into 4th and 3rd. Note the engine RPM. Then, if you choose to double clutch, get your input shaft spun up above that speed. That way, the input side will sink into the target gear.

Just under 2k miles.

I'll stick to the simple things for now, but for an effective double clutch, do I have blip the throttle with the clutch completely released?

OP, are you rev matching these down shifts?
I shift from 6th to 4th a lot, especially on the highway when I pull out to pass someone, but I can't say I've ever done it without rev matching. I can't imagine the car being too happy about it without a throttle blip.
Edit: I just went out and tried it without a throttle blip. Worked just fine.
Are you jamming the gate?

It's not a double clutch if you don't.

I shift from 6th to 4th all the time in the short passing zones on all these KY twisties on my daily commute. Never had an issue. Maybe 110k miles have loosened it up or something.

As discussed earlier in the thread there is nothing wrong with the two gear downshift and there are certainly times when it is needed. Cat just isn't there yet with his experience and may very well be driving at revs and in situations where it just isn't required.

I find hat shifting from 6th to fith is a little notchy, however if i shift out of 6 then watch the revs and shift to fourth I have no problems.

Yes, I did rev match and the ride is very smooth. Just going down into 4th had a slight blocking before slipping into the gear. It didn't take much force to get it in there and the rest of the shift-action was smooth.

Sounds about right to me. I'm just trying to get an insight into what to and not to do/how to do things correctly.

+1 I've done 6th to 4th a few times on the highway. 4th to 2nd sometimes when exiting the highway. etc etc.

The transmission is definitely a bit rough and notchy. It'll get better over time. Not sure if fluid change helps or not, I changed to Motul around 4k miles and I think it helped. A heavy shift knob also makes it feel better.

How are you gripping the shifter?

I would say you are hitting the gate.

If I try to grab the shifter in my palm and drag it out of gear, then move it to the lower gear, I usually get a very vague feeling and lose where I am. I would say that is true with any gear. The exception to this is anything down to 2nd because of its location.

I don't know how the '17s are, but if I want to do a 6>4, I would push it out of gear with my palm, let it center itself, then with my pointer, middle and ring finger, just apply moderate pressure on the front of the shifter and it should slip right into 4th.

Now, I have a 2013 with 41K miles. When I tested a new 2016, the shifter was tough as all hell. It'll loosen up. But, the 2017s have some transmission changes, so maybe what you are experiencing is the new normal.

Basically, just let the transmission do more for you.

I push straight up into neutral, then straight down letting the knob self center. I'll give it another shot on the freeway at higher rpms. And see if I still get a similar feeling

You may just not be fast enough at it.

No, just lift a little so the pressure plate grabs. Remember, you're in neutral so the only work it's doing is pumping the fluid. Yes, there's a pump in there. ;)

need more lubricant

Nope. That would be true for upshifts like the cold 1-2, but not downshifts. Unless you double clutch effectively, the synchros have to spin up the input side for a downshift.

Actually the opposite is true. The synchros will do a better job of biting through the fluid as they break in.

That is what I mean. To long a delay in the rev blip of the double clutch.

no he needs to remove the shift boot and pour lubricant all round the shifter and gate for that slippery smooth shift feel

Ok, yeah. Gotcha.


le :sigh:

:dnftt:

I tried again 6 to 4th at ~45-50 mph but this time double clutching and blipping with the clutch completely released. Shifted very smoothly. I'll try a partial release of the clutch next time and get a feel for that.

For good measure I tried doing the 6-4th without double clutching (but with a rev match) and the blocking feeling I described was there. Definitely agree that this is a user error.

Thanks for the advice everyone!

hmm really? i feel that i need to downshift to 3rd from 5th just to get any serious power in order to over take someone unless i'm at highway speeds then 5th to 4th is good enough most of the time

Ah, freeway speeds are a bit different. The shifter is far less friendly when it's spinning that fast. While I don't think it should be so hard to get into 4th, to me, it sounds like the synchros just aren't worn in. How is the 6>5>4 downshift? I tend to go through each gear because I always think in the back of my mind that I'll do a 6>2 at 80 and blow the engine.

But as I mention, my transmission is worn in. I don't need to rev match either. Though it does help a lot.

You may need to just plan out your passes more and just go down through the gears. Meaning, go to 5th and off the clutch, then do the same down to 4th. You might get stuck in slower traffic for a while until things wear in.

:burnrubber:

It's technically not a double clutch unless you engage the clutch. @Stang70Fastback brought to my attention that even with the clutch fully disengaged he (and I confirmed) that there is still enough purchase to spin up the input shaft. I don't remember if his clutch pedal is adjusted down but mine is set to what I consider minimum reasonable disengagement.