Strut...and anti-sway bar questions
 

Hello All,

So given our cars suspension geometry/ set up from stock oem, can you please answer the following questions:

1. On adjustable struts/shocks, is it best to at least get front adjustable struts ( I know, all 4 corners is ideal, more adjustability ) ? Not sure given rwd, but on the one main fwd car i've owned, it was best to at least get front adjustable to tune out over/under steer , and possibly made your suspension last a bit longer (as it gets more soft with use, then set the strut rate stiffer to compensate for that change).

2. Is it best to at least get a rear anti sway bar (versus going front+rear). Most cars that I hear of people putting anti sway bars on seems like the rear is the main advantage. Also a thicker gauge (say 19mm) is best. Not so sure on the consensus on hollow tubing (sure it's lighter...but doubt it's stiffer) vs straight steel tubing.

I haven't searched high/ low on the forums here for users experiences, please excuse my oversight here. :bonk:

Until you tell us what your goals are there's not much to say. Let me repeat: there is no universal "best".

Ok, fair enough.

To lower the car 1" to 1.2" ( haven't decided yet on which), give it a lower center of gravity and have it handle a bit better then stock. It isn't exactly a daily driver now, but in 2-3 years from now it will be my main daily driver ( I won't do any suspension changes for another 2-3 years, just doing my homework now). I'd be fine with a quality strut and spring since it would mainly be a DD. I'll also do a tire swap pretty much at the same time doing suspension (something a bit more sticky, maybe a 225-45-17) , yet fairly durable (possibly a model Michelin will offer at the time)

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/eiba...l#.WEMxLWK9KSM

Lowers 1.4", works with OEM struts. Add in some camber bolts for the front and this is probably the quickest and easiest option. A lot of people run these springs with great success.

Wait until you've done your suspension changes and then see if you need to fine tune things with swaybars. If the new suspension address all of your needs, swaybars are money that doesn't need to be spent.

Thanks for the tip.

I won't go each sportlines, as I had a bad experience in the past with them. I'm leaning towards each pro , or H&R springs at present. So I can use my stock struts, if I do a 1"- 1.4" huhhh. Hmmmm. Gotta get in there and make the swap, I'm pretty sure going quality, aftermarket, adjustable wouldn't be a bad idea ( thus my question which is most advantageous front or rear adjustable)

If you're going to do aftermarket springs and struts at the same time, then other options open up for around the same price. For instance, Eibach Pros and Bilstein B6s will run you about 1100. For around 900, you could get a set of Tein Flex Z coilovers, which is a great option, by all the reviews. Around 1100, Bilstein B14 coilovers. There are other coilover options in the same range, of varying levels of quality. Look up reviews on anything you're looking at before purchasing.

Correct, gotcha. Right, sounds like I could go the coil over route, fairly good quality, for $1100-1300 range that I have seen...good review.

Ultimately, I'd like to find a set up that gives the same/ similar ride performance as stock. Seems like when you lower 1.2"+ ( with aftermarket springs/struts), then there are some compromises that have to be made ( travel geometry greatly changes). I'd think going with an upper quality progressive spring (eibach pros) , along with a quality adjustable damper strut...would combat this situation well. ( tune out the bad, tune in the good). I haven't got really any experience with coil overs to know what to / what not to look for.

There are always compromises.
These cars do not have a lot of travel to begin with. I will state the obvious: the lower you go the less travel you have. Generally speaking if you have less travel you will need higher rate springs which means less comfort. Yes, you can have comfortable ride with higher rate springs but then the quality of damping becomes paramount.

As @gramicci101 mentioned from all accounts the Tein Z are great value.

I know coil overs offer adjustable ride height , however are the dampers adjustable (on $1000-$1300 models) ?? Not trying to break the bank. No doubt money will need to be spent for the desired effect, but I pretty much draw the line at $800-1300 range in parts

Some are, some aren't. The quality of damping is more important than having adjustment. That is , a quality non adjustable damper is better than a shitty adjustable damper.
Many Ebay Specials offer 40 click adjustable dampers. These are one way adjustable, compression damping only. The "40 click" is a sales pitch with little practical benefit. You cannot build dampers with decent damping at $600. It costs money to design and build dampers. If you are paying $14k for your coilovers you are not paying for the springs. Many of the Teins only offer 16 click adjustment but each click actually has an effect as opposed to just sounding cool sounding good over drinks. "Yeah but I have 40 click adjustment so that's better than your 16 clicks".

My take on the matter goes like this:
As soon as you start to move your suspension is working. It is working if you hit a pothole at 5 km/h. It is working if you take a sweeper at 100km/h. It is working as you accelerate and as you brake. Spend as much as you can on your suspension.

Seriously look into the Tein Flex Z's. They are adjustable and have camber plates included. They offer a lot of features that much higher priced coilovers have. The reason they're such a low price is that they're designed not to be rebuildable, where something like a KW v3 is. That said, they'll still last as long as any other high end strut, and the fact that they're designed exactly for the springs they have means there will be no mismatch in damping rates.

Since tein flex z are not rebuildable, need to buy all over again? Or i can buy the strut separetly and where?

That would be a question for one of the vendors, probably CSG Mike. I would probably just purchase all over again, since they're about as much as a set of Bilstein B6's.

I believe they sell just the strut. You keep your old perches, springs, etc and swap them onto the replacement strut. They're something like 200 per corner if I remember right?

If so, it's only $26 more to buy a whole new set.
http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/tein...l#.WEOBCXi9LCQ

Thanks for the tip on the Tein Flex Z set up. They look good, bummer about them not being rebuildable (yet at the price, I wouldn't expect them to be).

Looks like the TEIN MONO SPORT is rebuildable, that is their lowest starting point for rebuildable, but at about double the price as the Flex Z.

Bilstein B14 also looks good for the $. Or… I'll bet I could piece together a Eibach Pro spring kit, and Koni yellow sport struts (rebuildable) Front , not sure on rear shocks but something good/inexpensive, all new for about $500-600.

A 1" lower car with everything else same, won't give you a better handling than stock. You'll be very lucky if you get the same handling.

However, lowering the car AND changing the spring rates very often will improve handling. Which is why so many people do it.

Gotcha, so a 1" drop...is just a 1" drop.

So the consensus sounds like going coil-over is the best overall performance ( strut and spring are tuned for each other...no guess work). Seems like most folks on the forms go with a certain model Tein, KW, or possibly Cusco ( Ohlins if you have $2k to drop, ...and not so sure how many people are gravitating towards Bilstein since they have released their product line).

In regards to Tein z flex (and/or someone with the mono sport or Mono z flex), how easy/difficult are they to adjust ride height ??
Thanks in advance

The drop doesn't matter; the spring rate matters. Eibach pro will be an improvement over stock. Or RCE Yellow, which only drops 20mm.

As far as adjusting, they're all pretty much the same. An adjustment collar and a lock collar. Lift that corner, use the included spanner to spin the lock collar loose, then use the spanner to adjust the other collar to where you want it to sit.

Right, I didn't imply that I would cut the stock spring to then give me a 1" drop...that is ghetto.

So even if I did Eibach pro 1" drop progressive springs ( or possibly H&R springs at a 1.2" drop) , then I can use my oem struts and that would be legit (better then stock). That would be the $200 parts lowest cost method.

I am leaning towards either doing that (above) , or going with a coil over set up, that is rebuild able ( for $1200-1400 if possible) . Don't want to over spend, yet once the installation is done I don't want to look back and say...I shoulda...coulda...woulda...

Tein Monosport isn't the entry point rebuildable coilover for their brand. Flex A is rebuildable and includes their hydraulic bump stop technology for a couple hundred more than the Flex Z and $600 less than Monosport.

http://www.tein.com/products/flex_a.html

Sweet, thanks for that link...I'll look into pricing on those.

As for coil overs, I am probably leaning towards Tein due to price, plus they have been around for years ( and most likely will be around for 5-10+ more years...if it comes time to rebuild and need small parts.

I'd recommend contacting CounterSpace Garage or Racecomp Engineering and telling them your goals and asking for their suggestions - they're both reputable, support the forum, and really know their stuff.

Having said that, my initial thoughts are to recommend a straight wound spring (not a progressive) like the Racecomp Engineering 'Yellow' and Bilstein B8 dampers with crash bolts to maximize camber. Wheel control and damping will be far superior to OEM, with higher overall grip and excellent balance at the limits. I'd personally rather have a decent quality damper matched to a proven spring than a low-end coilover, although I admit I don't have any personal experience with the Teins being recommended.

Good luck!

Thanks RJasonKlein for the recommendations. I'll look into CounterSpace Garage or Racecomp Engineering and see what they say.

I am leaning towards a mono-tube design (and something rebuild-able) coilover if possible (like the Tein Mono sport or Bilstein B14 or B16) . Mono-tube designs tend to be on upper end coilovers, plus they help dissipate heat much better then a twin tube design (less heat built up... theoretically you'd think longer lasting/ more durable). Tein has more height adjust possibilities , however from reading it seems like a lot of forum members have gone with the B14 coilovers and are very happen with them (for about $1000). B16 is similar, but adds more adjustment (compression /rebound) ... which it's always nice to have adjustment options, but not so sure I would utilize these features much if it's more so (99%) a street driven car. B14 or Mono-sports quality wise, I'd most likely be perfectly happy with... at their price range.

I had B14's on my car for about a month. As they were off the shelf I think you'll be pretty happy, lower without sacrficing anything, they didn't light my world on fire, but they were 'good'.

Then I got them revalved for linear rate springs and am trying to figure out a competitive autocross setup so I'm off in my own little experimental land.

and

does not equal

So....

...NO, definitely not. Infact you got what nikitopo said all wrong!

If you lower the car, you need harder springs. If you get harder springs you need tires that produce more grip (i.e. now "everything else same" not the same). Lowering the car/grippier tires etc., will change the character of the car. It will no longer be as "playfull" as stock. It will won't step out a bit like it does stock, and you will not really want it to do so on public roads. It won't just step out a bit and subsequently correct itself without input.

This quote from Chris Harris (from his GT86 review ), perfectly describes the stock playfullness:

...and this is what you will lose. Hence...

...is not possible.


Another good read is the first post in this thread:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10643

Personally, if I upgrade to a 2017, I will keep it stock (except for grippier tires and other brake pads for track). My car was much more fun on the streets before than it is now.

When I replied back to nikitopo, I was being sarcastic.... in a written form.

I did read that by Moto-P , good write up. That is why I haven't changed anything with my suspension (yet) , and still researching.

He said "Stiff, low, suspension and stock tire is about the worst combination you can have in the FRS. Soft compliant suspension and mild drop and healthy set of fairly grippy tires is the only way to NOT ruin a great car, if this is a mild build."

I concur , absolutely. That is why I am pretty much leaning towards say a B14 coilover (given how neutral it seems, about 1" drop) where progressive springs are matched with the gas strut as they are tuned for each other/compliment each other , or I go with some kind of 1"- 1.25" drop spring (I don't trust anything with more then 1.25" drop), with quality strut (most likely something adjustable .... thus my initial question on this thread = is it best to go with an adjustable strut on the front corners, and/or does rear matter that much having adjustable ??!!??).

So I most likely will eventually go with :
1. a quality coilover that won't compromise the playfulness of the FR-S , like a B14 ....seems solid. I don't hear many forum users saying much about the Tein Mono sport.... but on paper /specs they look solid.
2. ... or I go with a quality spring/strut combo (nothing out there seems "tuned" for each other... let me research this more so.....)

3. replace stock tires, with a quality summer, semi sticky yet can produce a decent amount of miles driven (30-40K if possible) , possibly a 225-45-17. I have even heard going with something wider then a 215 up front changes the characteristics of how the car handles (turn in / turn out , etc).

.... still researching, because I'm a researching fool / junkie :drool:

Moto-P also says :

"Soft + mid-height -20~30mm (or plenty of stroke built into coilver) + medium grip street tire = FUN, Fairly quick, easy to handle, and close to original setup."

This could/would be a route I'd like to go with .

Yes Moto-P wrote "is the only way to NOT ruin a great car", but not that it won't change the character.

With "Soft compliant suspension and mild drop and healthy set of fairly grippy tires", the car is not ruined - but it is changed.

Whether or not the change is considered "good" can be divided in subjective opinion and a measured time around a track. With "not ruin" Moto-P is referring to the latter.

"Fairly close" to stock setup, is again a subjective size. How close is "fairly"?

Again personally for the street, I preferred the car stock over my "fairly soft coilovers, 1 1/4 inch drop and Yokohama AD08Rs. I do like all the changes I made when I have the car on track though. But driving the car on anything near the limits on the street or feeling the car giving "playful" feedback and I nearly sh!t myself. The car goes like it's on rails now, and I do not feel like intentionally trying to derail it! :D Hence, no "extra bashes" on the throttle to feel it move a bit more anymore.

It seems you have made up your mind, so there is no point trying to convince you to stay on stock suspension. And also you might like the change... Just be aware of the fact that it WILL change.

Tor: out of curiosity, your AD08Rs are of what width? I wonder if maybe stock sized yokos, or even of 205 width might be less like on rails when DD?

I can say: with RCE Yellows on OEM struts and MPSS in OEM size, the car handles very well. It's pretty neutral, sticks to the ground well, but I can still get the rear end out with power oversteer or trailing throttle oversteer as I see fit. With OEM power, at that.

However, the FRS, especially 13-15, is a little more tail-happy than the BRZ is, due to different OEM spring rates. So once you change the springs, that goes away and is replaced by the characteristics of whatever spring you install. RCE designed their Yellow springs to work with the OEM struts and produce neutral handling. So if you put them on an FRS, that's what you'll get. The tail-happiness goes away and is replaced by neutral handling.

I put close to 30K miles on my springs and OEM tires before I replaced the tires with MPSS. The difference in ride comfort between OEM springs and RCE Yellows on the OEM tire is minimal, but handling was much improved. Going from the OEM tire to the MPSS, with its much stronger sidewall, was a noticeable decrease in comfort level, but handling improved even further over the old tires. Everything has tradeoffs; it just depends on what negatives you're willing to accept in order to get the positives you want.

They are 225/40R18.

It was less pronounced with less grippy Pirelli. But still, the car is more planted and skipped less around. The skipping about or dancing, in a controlled manner, is in my opinion what makes the car special. The feeling of going 10/10ths when in reality you are not.

Before getting coilovers, I had the Pirelli on stock suspension. It didn't make nearly as much difference. Looking at pictures from that, the wheel gap didn't look too bad either (pics in the 1st post in my build thread, see signature). I think a lot can be done by choosing the right rims, and that would by far be my recommendation for anyone seeking optical improvement without wanting to change the handling significantly.

Don't get me wrong, I am quite happy with my suspension and tire choice for the use the car sees. But to be honest, it doesn't feel that special driving it on backroads anymore, because even if I push it doesn't feel like you are more than 7/10ths. And I wouldn't want to get much higher on the scale on public roads anymore in any case. Sometimes it's outright annoying (like when a female companion gets carsick from driving with me because of the suspension).

I bought the car to be a vehicle of transportation. And I enjoyed taking 3 hours drives Sundays on backroads "bashing the throttle a little too much" in the in the corners, in the words of Chris Harris. Now it has become a hobby and I drove it once the last 2-3 weeks. I just put a charger on it today, to ensure the battery won't go flat and spent 5 mins looking for the key because I was that long ago I had it last that I couldn't remember where I put it. Next time I will drive it, it will probably be to test out something i made on it.

The itch to just take it out for a spin has gone (and also I don't want to take my precious belonging out on the salty winter roads). Sometimes I wish it was "just a car". :bonk:

This is just a warning, I know others who modded their car similarly as I did and who felt exactly the same as I did.

Ok, I didn't want to be that negative sounding! But just to let the original poster know, what potential path this could lead down.

If he or anyone else in his situation (no track, DD) insists on lowering the car for optical reasons, I would go for something as soft as possible. And without camber plates with spherical bearings. Sometimes less is more.

If you want to change the handling to a more "racecar-like" feel, the by all means... just know what you are getting into. :)

This is from a theoretical view. That is, in real life this is probably not relevant especially if you are mainly concerned with street driving.
Progressive rate springs are another compromise. The valving has to cope with different spring rates.

Another personal rant: I would never consider progressive springs for my car just as a matter of principle.

Have you seen the spring rates for the Mono Sports? 8k/9k is a crazy upgrade if you are wanting close to oem.
OEM is something like 2.3k/3.8k.

Echoing what @Tor said, I also feel that stock suspension with stock size wheels/tires is more fun. I used to have RCE Tarmac 0 coilovers, 17x9 Enkei RPF1, and 245/40/17 Dunlop Z2 Star Specs; pretty good quality stuff for raising the limits and cornering fast. However, this did not make the car more fun. In fact, it made the car less agile.

If you absolutely feel like you need to lower your car, I would only recommend RCE Yellow springs or STI Pink springs. Both are engineered to work well with the stock dampers and emphasize performance over looks. The RCE yellows offer a 20mm drop and the STI Pinks offer a 15mm drop. For a purely street driven car, I don't feel there is a need for coilovers, unless you're after a drop of over 25mm (1 inch) or being competitive at the track.

Personally, I'm going to try swapping to OEM BRZ front springs and a slightly larger front sway bar (probably Cusco 20mm) with the stock rear suspension next year. I've heard great things about this combo. It should sharpen turn-in and dial out some of the push/understeer with the increased front grip.

Thanks for pointing out that important factoid. I must have been smoking something when I was reading Tein literature.

I will look into RCE yellow springs. That might actually just be the ticket, a nice coil spring that has a softer spring rate... better matched to the FR-S.

If I went coilovers, is there a coilover set up out there with a softer spring rate around 2.5k/4k ? Most of what I've read on is higher (progressive spring Bilstein , or linear spring set up). KW V1 is close (pretty sure) but a bit higher rates.

FWIW I have the Monosports (and a bunch of other suspension goodies) and I don't find the ride too harsh. Of course everyone's definition of harsh will be different.

I've got the dampers set to full soft for the winter but usually ride with them set mid-stiff in the summer.

Responding here for @Adam_L

Tire choice is the #1 variable to consider. Like others have mentioned, putting a very sticky tire on the car really changes the character of the car. I won't say better or worse, but it's different. Obviously for some more absolute grip is the goal but if you're not chasing lap times, more grip might = less fun. The car will of course have higher cornering limits even with stock suspension, but it will feel a little sloppy due to excessive roll and movement. A sticky tire will make the car want stiffer springs, which will require firmer dampers, and if you want firmer dampers that don't beat you up you have to spend some real money. On top of that you'll want to start thinking about replacing OEM bushings with something firmer since the flex from OEM bushings will be more apparent and you might add camber plates for more aggressive alignment to take advantage of the grippier tires and....I think you get the idea of the rabbit hole.

For a street car, a tire that has consistent and reasonable grip is the ticket IMO. Michelin Pilot Super Sports are a popular choice for a good reason.

If I were building a fun, reliable, reasonably fast, simple and budget friendly BRZ/FRS suspension tomorrow (and I do think about this all the time), I would do:

1. RCE Yellow springs
2. Bilstein B6 dampers
3. camber bolts and rear LCAs with good alignment (-2 deg camber front, -1.8 rear, 0 toe front, tiny bit of rear toe in)

After that, I would consider RCE front and rear RCE swaybars OR just a take off OEM 16mm rear bar. Or keep bars stock. Also maybe a few key bushings (especially if you got some mileage on your car).

This handles and rides very well, will last a long itme, and be FUN.

I do mostly like the Bilstein B14, but I don't like the soft progressive springs very much. It's a good quality damper though, which is why I generally prefer Bilstein over some other options.

The Bilstein B6 dampers are actually a great match to our RCE Yellow springs (and for that matter a handful of other springs out there as well). We've tested them together and examined shock dyno...it's a good quality shock and better than what's in many coilovers. I don't recommend any spring that lowers more than an inch. Our RCE Yellows are a mild/medium drop with carefully chosen spring rates and include replacement bumpstops so you get back some of the travel you get from the mild drop.

A lot of people assume coilover = better but that is not always the case.

- Andrew

Also wanted to add...my list there for a fast/fun/reliable street car is what I would do for myself for pretty much any budget. We could do custom built 4 way JRZ coilovers for more than 10 grand and spend a week tuning them just right and it will ride + perform better...but the Bilstein/RCE Yellow combo will last longer and just be way more simple.

And you could still track and auto-x the car and have a really good time. If you were doing that often and wanted to be competitive, you might want to consider a firmer (and more expensive) coilover system.

- Andrew