I test drove a 2017. Not impressed. Is it just me?
 

Very short:
Went to the dealer, drove one (in normal mode), steering felt really numb.
Very direct steering with sizeable resistance but no feel/feedback. The car felt light on its feet, quite willing to change direction but too "playstationy"
Everything else I thought was between good and perfect.
I did not try the sport/track mode (I didn't think about that, the salesman didn't know about it).
Questions:

1: Would it have been different in other driving modes?
2: Is there too much toe in from the factory (hopefully fixable) that inhibits feedback?
3: Is there any option for a direct steering rack (no assist)? Will that make it better?

Looking around youtube I see everyone praising the Fiesta ST for having nice steering but that didn't feel any better at all when I tried it.

Final question:

Is this the best anyone can do with electric power steering (am I looking for "what it used to be and never will be again")?

Probably just you. 2017 seems to be a more refined 13-16

auto or manual?

Buy a 4C. They have manual steering.

Even Porsche has had problems with feel in their electric power steering.

They've been slowly working on improvements. Suggest trying the 2017 Panamera, in which improvements have been made...$147,950 is the ticket.


Suggest Alpha Romeo 4c for both you and me.

Cheaper option is Used Lotus Elise, just under 30k.


What you do get with the 86/BRZ is no play in the steering, best in that respect of any cars I've owned so far.

I never tried the first gen. I've always driven hydraulic or non assisted.

I will if you give me the price difference

At lower speeds and normal driving the steering just feels like, well, steering. I don't think I would call it "numb" but it is no big deal one way or the other. Take a few quick corners or hit an on ramp at 60+ and it comes alive.
The track/sport mode has no impact on steering but you could probably not have driven to any advantage with them if the salesperson was with you anyway.

So ... I should just settle. The kind of answer I was expecting but not hoping for.
I tried a friend's Elise and it's too extreme for a DD. Having good steering just can't compensate for all the other minuses.

My DD for the past 8 years is an old Infiniti G20. I either got used to it too much (imagine a pair of old shoes, enough said) or the steering is the best I tried. I can literally feel everything in the steering wheel. From slight loss of grip when turning too fast to road banking to grooves in the pavement.
The salesperson was really disappointed when I told him my impression after half a mile. He kept pushing me to "feel the engine", "hit it", "open it up" and he couldn't understand why I'm not interested in doing that (he was probably used to kids coming just for joyrides). The rest of the drive back (another mile or so) wasn't better.

Go find a used NC Miata. Great cars with great steering.


I think that, yes, the feel you're looking for is all but a thing of the past these days.

Keep in mind that a front weight biased FWD car will have a totally different steering feel to a more center balanced RWD car. It may just take some getting used to.

Miata, any of them really. The NA and NB may be feedback overload at first.

The NC has tons of feedback as well.

A 987 Cayman/Boxster has good feedback, though more refined than a ole MX5. But
actually I would say the BRZ/FRS is one of the better EPS cars out there right now. I can tell you that after a few weeks you wont mind it. I had a 981 and though it handles fantastic, it was so numb it made my BRZ feel like a HPS(hydraulic) unit.

I understand your frustration, but for the money you wont find a better EPS than the twins.

And if you do find one, come here and let us know.

Well ... I was afraid that's the reality. If I want a new car (which I do) that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, minimally practical and with seats for my two kids, I'm stuck with one of the twins.

I created the account just for this thread but it looks like I'll be back at some point in the future when I'll buy one of these to cars.

I decided I needed a vehicle which is higher off the ground for remote roads around here.

At that point I had been driving daily my FRS for two years.

So drove a new Subaru Crosstrek, couple of months ago. It felt like I was driving a bus compared to the FRS.

A laugh on me it was. Way Way too spoiled by the FRS I am. Gonna have to continue to drive those roads, with the FRS, sometimes hitting bottom, scraping things..oh well.


And as Tcoat states...It's when the steering wheel is turned on curves, just anywhere, that the fun begins.


Other choice: http://arielatom.com/

You're probably just used to the loud and clear feedback of your old car understeering all the time. The twins have excellent steering, aural, and butt feedback.

You may want to shop around a bit more. If you go into one of these cars with the thought you "settled" or were "stuck" you may never be satisfied. Even with the refinements for 2017 they are still more of a raw car than you may expect. They make weird noises, are not a luxury ride, although not slow they are not the fastest thing on the road and if your kids have legs the back seat is only really good for short trips. Not really sure what may be more appropriate and certainly agree that the choices are sparse in this category but you may be setting yourself up for disappointment.

1. No, it only effects how aggressively conservative traction control is.
2. Maybe, but unlikely to be a night and day difference, would probably result in a 'minor improvement'
3. You may be able to unpower the power steering assist, but if there are any out there they're pretty quiet about it. The 86 has a true manual rack with an electric motor sitting behind the dashboard adding assistance, true manual steering probably isn't too difficult to get, but you're taking a gamble on if it will 'feel' any better. Many cars these days are designed with power steering in mind so they often feel worse without it.

As above, I got the chance to drive an NC Miata for a bit before buying an 86 (and after) because I also feared 'electric power steering' but imo the differences were incredibly minute and likely mostly psychological. I'd be surprised if anything else seriously contends with the 86 built in the last decade that didn't originally retail for >$50k.

Edit: I'm pretty surprised an early 90's luxury car has more communicative feedback than an 86, pretty much all 90's cars get flack for numb steering with the exception of very few.

The G20 is an oddity among Infiniti cars which in itself was an oddity among (then) newly born Japanese luxury side-brands (early 90s). It's basically a Nissan Primera designed for Europe wit a bit more options and a different badge. When new, no one saw it as a luxury car (too stiff, a bit undepowered, no cup-holders (OOOH, THE HORROR!), too pricey (my car was 25k out the door 24 years ago))

I've stumbled upon posts where people have changed the steering rack bushing that connects to the inner tie rods.

When you're driving the car mildly, the OEM rubber bushing(not sure if rubber) takes a lot of squish. This gives it that numb initial turn feel. But after that squish, it should be all better.

So, what companies did (like Whiteline or Perrin) was develop a hard material (aluminum or hard plastic) to replace it and get rid of the squish.

You can search it up, I just started reading about it yesterday and am somewhat convinced I gotta do that mod soon.

If Nissan tuned the steering feel on the G20 similar to the hydraulic rack on my old 350z, then I think I know what kind of steering feedback you're looking for. You want something that will kick back and shudder through the steering wheel over every tiny bump and rock you roll over.

The EPS unit on the Twins isn't going to give you that level of feedback. Actually I doubt you're going to find that on any new car short of a manual-rack 4c. The Twins have relatively good steering feedback, but it's still electric at the end of the day.

On the plus side, what you get with the Twins (vs. old hydraulic racks) is much more quick and direct steering with less slop on-center. That's probably why it feels more "playstation" to you, it's almost too direct/quick if you're used to older hydraulic racks.

If you're looking for something like your old G20, I think your best bet is to buy something used with a hydraulic rack.

Try a sixth gen Camaro. Excellent steering feel and really nice to drive!

How would you compare the steering feel of the 6th Gen Camaro compared to the twins. Obviously it is larger/heavier, but does it have a playful nature like a smaller car. I owned a 5th gen 1LE, i was amazed at how well it handled. It didnt drive like the big ole tub of bolts it was, it had a little bit of the smaller car spirit in it. But not enough in the end, and i came running back to smaller vehicles. My hope is the lighter/smaller 6th gen may be an improvement, and be something i would have interest in. My 1LE communicated greatly, you could walk it right to the edge, feel a slip and just hold it like a pro. A good dancer partner, but in the end she was just to fat for me. The car that is.

I'd love to hear any impressions you have.

You could always fit the crosstrek bodylift onto the FRS. It should give you the clearance you want.
Click me for inspiration

They're good. Try one. It is very subjective.

You mentioned Track/Sports so I assume you were referring to the AT. You really need to try pushing that button. To me the regular auto mode is terribad. That button will transform the transmission in a wonderful awe inspiring way full of gear holding, engine breaking and throttle responsiveness goodness.

As for the steering you need to find a more adventurous drive route. I was lucky when I test drove my first twin as the dealer took me to a nearby valley area with some curvy down hill stretches and the return trip was the same, but a nice hill climb where I could open it up a little.

Well this is the truth. I guess a test drive is in order.

Worth a drive. I did a mini review of a drive in one in one of the vs threads. My summary was that it is almost there but not quite. Way better than the last gen but still not what I like overall. Fast as hell though.

The 86's steering is by far the best for any new car under $50 K. It is very precise, quick and has enough feedback. The ND Miata is the only one that matches it but I prefer how the 86 turns.

Since you pointed out "normal" mode then I assume you are talking about the automatic version (fyi, none of the "modes" btw change how the steering feels and we are in the same generation, 2017 is just a refresh). My first FRS was an automatic but I have to put in my two cents that the manual is really the one to get especially with the 2017 updates.. The automatic is not bad so certainly if you have a shitty commute or have some sort of disability that makes it hard to drive a stick then that is understandable, otherwise it does take away from the experience quite a bit since the gear is more aggressive on the MT (even more so with the 2017s).

I am betting that is how i will feel as well. I know its a capable car, no doubt. But there is an "x" factor, that is always elusive. As you said "almost there".

I haven't been able to hit any real good roads in one but I've had a couple of V6 rentals that I've been able to have some fun with and have been very impressed with the handling and agility. It still does definitely feel like a bigger/heavier car than the FR-S as there is only so much magic you can work. The 1LE may narrow the gap further and I would love to take one on some of the backroads around here to really compare it to FR-S

The only change I think I've noticed is that the 86 feels like there is a bit less road feel. The steering and handling are not all that much different. I do dislike how slippery the new wheel is, though.

If you're already questioning it, I'd not recommend getting one.

Driver's position was a big turn off for me. Much improved but I still felt I needed a rubber ducky.

^^^this^^^

The stock tires are a pretty big reason why there's lack of feedback; they're rated as Low Rolling Resistance. Change to something like a Michelin Pilot Super Sport and it'll add a noticeable amount of weight and feedback to the steering.

I think that's what everyone else is calling "more refined." It may actually stick better but I really like the raw feel of my 13 FRS.

Apparently, the damping curves have changed quite a bit.

You are really feeling the difference between and older FWD vehicle and newer RWD vehicle. I depowered the power steering on my 90 Integra RS...and it was marvelous, though slow speed turning really worked your arms; depowered/devalved quick ratio power rack + Nitto NT01's tires + small diameter MOMO Monte Carlo steering wheel (320mm). The chassis on that car sucked in comparison to the FR-S though, one big limp noodle - chassis deflecton was crazy when jacking it up.

FWD vehicles will have a different feel in the wheel due to them also being the drive wheels in addition to steering...you will never get the same feeling through the wheel with a RWD car. What a precision driving focused RWD car like the FR-S will give you though is an unrivaled chassis dynamic and immediacy in response that you can't get from a FWD vehicle. As good as the steering felt in the Integra it can't overcome the chassis issue. Overall the car did not feel as quick to respond nor stable at high speed...

There's one thing that really I can't get over in my FR-S and that is how stable it is at high speed... absolutely unreal how lightning quick it can react yet it does so with an absolutely planted feel (Note: my FR-S is not stock.) Solid steering rack bushings (aluminum) + Grimmspeed strutbar + Lightweight 17x7.5 40mm offset wheels + 205/45-17 Continental DW tires + aftermarket seat and slider setup that connects you much more to the chassis = this crazy lightning quick yet absolutely planted feeling.

With as great as the Integra RS track car was with its steering feel, the FR-S just does everything better and you have more feel of what it is doing...the Integra RS was much more of a handfull on track and nowhere near as stable/planted at speed. The FR-S is just like an extension of your driving conscience - works as flawlessly as you do, no drama, no worries... just perfoms with an immediacy and precision that is very hard to come by in most any other vehicle.

Also had a 4th gen Camaro and 2005 Impreza RS...those boats don't need any further disussion - they are not the most responsive of vehicles no matter how much you try to make them so. Did have the power steering go out on the Camaro when coming in from a track session. Roughly 3,200lb car + 275/45-17 DOT-R tires + small diameter racing wheel + no power for your power steering = FUN in the pits! Was literally flexing and bending the steering wheel to turn... my arms regarded this as steering feels taken too far! LOL

Yeah, i was amazed how with my helmet on the 5th Gen was the tightest fit for me. Yet I could sit in a Cayman or BRZ with no problem. They built a good track toy, but didnt think about the drivers work area too much. The only area they need to fix for me on the 6th gen is extra height so i can fit a helmet on my head....and better front visiblity. Trying to manage a tight turn or go around a cone, while looking over that horribly high cowl was real frustrating.

So hopefully the 6th gen is better to me in that regard.

The front visibility is much better. You still can see shit beside or behind you though.

Yep, that was my the main reason why I did not get a Camaro SS. I love the alpha platform, but GM really needs to take their designs in a different direction. Insanely high door sills, squared front fascias and chop top roofs obliterate any semblance of visibility.

Oh those damned door sills!


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