FRS-BRZ Port Fuel Injector (interesting)
 

Here's a picture of the OEM port injectors on our FRS vs. the blue top feed injectors used in the WRX/STi

http://elementtuning.com/store/wp-co...tinjectors.jpg

They appear to extend way into the intake runner and are very small. I can't say I've seen these used in any other application but if you have let me know on what vehicle.

Too small for our FRS and what we'll be doing so in went some 750cc :) I'm running a Hydra EMS so no these will not bolt in your stock FRS/BRZ. I had to make some fuel rail spacers to utilize the OEM fuel rails.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

so are you disabling the direct injection as well?

they look similar to the injectors used on BMW's and Audi's...

similar Bosch Motorsport injectors looks like this:
http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...ne201226-1.jpg

http://www.epsmotorsport.com/Bosc1000.jpg

http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...ne201225-1.jpg

Wouldn't be hard to machine those for an 11mm o-ring inlet and Denso seat

Most of the new toyotas have injectors like that 3URFE injectors look very similar

Why ... I'm quite certain that the direct injection will flow enough fuel alone for the power the motor can handle and if you max the duty cycle you can start adding fuel from the port injectors

We are going forced induction and I'm not running gasoline so I'm planning ahead. Justvices not trying to create extra mapping.

We are building a 500 HP Time Attack FRS so much of what we do won't make sense to a casual enthusiest. For most following a similar path changing the port injectors is an easier solution than the direct injectors. At a high enough power level direct injection pressure won't be adequate to deliver enouch fuel on its own.

We don't plan on abandoning the direct injection at all, it's a huge asset to performance and fuel economy.

The port injectors are there because without them the intake valves get way too dirty running only direct injection.

For boosted applications, spraying E85 with direct injectors has a drastic improvement in charge cooling effect compared to port injectors.

It has this same effect even with pump fuel. Direct injection is what allows this level of performance with a 12.5:1 running premium fuel which you cannot get with port injection alone.

@arghx7

Just take some deep breaths, count to 10, and go off to the random pictures thread. Bestwheelbase has some pretty wicked pics posted.






:bellyroll:

It would be nice if there was a set of stock injectors that swapped over. Say in the +50%-100% higher flow range.

So what are you running if not Gasoline?

I haven't completely thought this through but with E85 especially and boost, wouldn't it be better to spray E85 into the manifold or something rather than the ports, assuming the direct injectors are maxed out? That way it evaporates before it hits the valves, and with boost it will help cool things down too. Reducing available air mass isn't a big deal since the lower temperature and pressure will allow more air to come in anyways.

In a situation like this you want to run as much of the total fuel mass through the DI injectors as you can. This has to be within the hardware constraints (injector flow rate, fuel pressure capability) and the calibration constraints (injection timing window). I don't want to sound like an obnoxious name dropper but I went to a long MIT presentation about this a couple months ago at an industry alternative fuels conference.

There is an exponential relationship between the charge cooling effect of PFI and GDI when using ethanol. The MIT Sloan Automotive Lab did a very in-depth engine dyno study on this. They were funded by GM (among others) and used a Pontiac Solstice engine modified with PFI injectors.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...1&d=1342000983



the chemical anti-knocking properties of ethanol are still there when you use port injection or your typical alcohol injection type of deal (spraying it into the intake. The charge cooling effect is far weaker, and the effective octane number (in RON) is far less.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...1&d=1342000983

I'm currently on E85 but I may also be running some race fuel. Trying to get more power out of this car for Ultimate Track Car Challenge which is next week so I need to move faster than I want.

I'm sure there will be a nice OEM like replacement port injector in the future. For now I'm just sharing what information I've gathered. Port fuel injection runs at 55 psi by the way.

arghx7 gave you the technical reason but I'll break it down simply for you.

If the fuel evaporates before it reaches the combustion chamber you will not have as much cooling effect. Therefore if you spray the E85 directly into the combustion chamber you have a greater cooling effect along with the extra cooling effect you get from the evaporation of ethanol vs. gasoline.

Rocketbrand sells E85 that is cut with racing Gasoline if you want to stick with E85 but need something stable with a higher octane value. It's good to see somebody running E85 already. That's what I'd like to do but I'm more concerned with safe, reliable power.

I think Cereal is thinking about a certain supercharged experimental Lotus engine that used a pre-throttlebody injector spraying E85 instead of an intercooler. In that case it made sense but DI is clearly superior for the cooling effect.

Arghx7, was that the "E85 boost" engine that was showcased several years ago? It had a separate but smaller fuel tank for E85 that was designed to last multiple fill ups due to it only used E85 under heavy loads.

The Tundra 3UR uses a similar style of injector, but with a full length upper body as well not a shorty one.

Oh Phil - are you guys just running on 100% port injection with the Hydra?

Possibly a noob question, but I'm curious; how many port injectors does the FR-S/BRZ have?

4 just like any other 4 cylinder multi port fuel injected engine. The difference is there are 4 more direct injectors, one inside each cylinder.

I thought so, but wasn't sure. Thanks!

curious to see the spray pattern of the oem injectors vs your aftermarket ones.

Yes until we finish the direct injection strategy which i migh have befoe UTCC. For now I'm 100% port injection and E85. I've been tweaking cam maps for now and as of today the car finally has that intake roar and pull I've been after! Its audibly obvious when you have the overlap right.

That was a Ford program, using direct injected E85 as a knock suppressant for a twin turbo 5.0 engine (or something built off that architecture). It was intended as a possible replacement for a diesel, because of the expensive emissions equipment required for diesels. I know a few guys who worked on some of the testing of the prototypes. I'm not sure if the program is still around or not. That was in-house stuff done in Ford's Michigan labs to explore a specific commercial application. This information I'm referring to is an MIT study released in April with funding from a group of companies including GM. It's more about basic R&D and was not part of developing a specific engine.

I've heard of that one too, though I didn't hear the part about using it as a diesel replacement until now. I was referring to the MIT project specifically for engine downsizing using turbocharged engines.

I think it's this one: http://www.ethanolboost.com/

Hydra EMS has started working on the direct injection code for me after analyzing the OEM scopes of the DI system. It's very interesting and enlightening and we'll have no problems adapting this version of D4S system into the current Hydra EMS hardware.

We will be adopting the OEM direct injection and port injection strategy mostly but we are going to leave DI timing tunable so should I find benefit as we boost this engine we'll have that option to change timing based on load.

Based on the direct injector pulse width at idle I'm going to estimate the OEM direct injector flow is around 400-450cc. As RPM gets towards redline and both the port and DI injectors are firing the total pulse width would suggest less flow however than the sum of both injection systems. Regardless there seems to be plenty of injector pulse width left to play with between the two systems.

The torque drop off in the 4k rpm range can be seen in the injector pulse width scopes also. Clearly a VE drop off there but that will tune out nicely with a turbocharger system :)

As it sits I think we can get away with some low boost turbocharger systems on the OEM fuel setup but at higher boost levels at least a rising rate fuel pressure regulator is going to be needed for the port injector system.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

Hey Phil, I'm happy to see the work you're doing here and that you're sharing it with everyone, thank you for that. I've followed your race program for a long time as a Subaru owner and its great to see you with a new project here with the FR-S.

I wanted to let you know that we do have some great injector upgrades available for the FR-S and BR-Z. If your development takes you this way I'd love to help you out with an injector solution to fit your setup. We have the following sizes available:

660cc
770cc
1100cc
2150cc

We also have a 900cc option available IF it is possible to space the fuel rail up slightly to accomodate the extra height of this injector. This is a perfectly normal solution and something commonly done on other applications, but it will come down to whether or not you have the physical height to move the rail up slightly without any obstructions.

The 1100cc injector listed above has the same extended tip as the stock injector, whereas the others I listed have a normal short tip. Either setup will be fine for this car as we have not found any discernible differences in real world results for fuel economy or performance going between the two tip styles.


Also arghx7... thanks for posting the info about port and direct injected E85 octane and temperature differences... it is really interesting to see the data comparison there.

I'm going to subscribe to this thread to follow along with the progress here and of course if anyone has any questions just let me know and I'll try to help out.

Thank you for your input on injector options. I didn't subscribe to my own thread and didn't notice you posted. I've been a little quiet lately as I shipped my FRS after the Ultimate Track Car Challenge to Hydra EMS in California so they could accelerate the direct injection/port injection strategies in the Hydra EMS along with all the sophisticated CAN bus based systems.

In any event the Hydra EMS is finished and it's going to be amazing and will solve many issues people currently have with forced induction and reflashing. I still have my work cut out for me as I'm responsible for all the performance tuning and maps.

There is room to move the rail up as I did this so as we progress with supercharging and or turbocharging we'll be in touch about an injector solution.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

Good to hear back from you, and great to hear that Hydra is making good progress with development here.
Will you or Hydra be at PRI at the end of the month? If so please stop by our booth and we can chat and show you some of our injectors on a flow bench and give you some more info them. We'd also love to talk to Hydra about their fueling strategies and discuss working with them on compiling injector data between our injectors and the Hydra software.

The development of the engine management system was a huge challenge to say the least and took a ton of money and time. Because of the uncertainty in completion time we just couldn't commit to SEMA or PRI. Hydras job ended with getting the OEM fuel system to match up perfectly with the Hydra EMS and it's up to me now to pick and make the aftermarket fuel options a reality.

We have 6 new Direct Injection maps on top of what we already have for the port injection and the data entered for those port injectors is really critical for the DI to adjust itself properly so I'll definitely be looking to work with someone to get very accurate injector data.

We'll have to figure out what the most popular injector upgrades will be so I can focus and develop those options as base maps in the Hydra for customers and dealers.

Great, please get in touch with me when you're ready to discuss that by emailing info@fuelinjectorclinic.com or calling at (561) 427-0082.
We know how important having the proper info is and are interested in working with you to develop this info.
-Bryan

What octane race gas are you looking at that you want higher than E85 offers?

For base maps I'm going to be doing pump fuel, Sunoco 100 Race, and E85. For my personal race setup I haven't decided yet but typically I run Sunoco 110 with our Hydramist Water/Meth injection system. That combination tunes like VP C16 which is 116 octane. The octane of E85 really isn't all that high (106 range) but it has other benefits. Combined with the Hydramist I've gotten shockingly good results.

I really like E85 and I'm going to convert my STi race car over to it next season to test. The problem is that I will need to transport about 40 gallons of E85 just to get through a race weekend (one race car, if I only run 3 timed laps a session). The FRS I haven't equipped it with a surge tank yet so I'll need much more E85 to get me through a weekend since the tank needs to be above 1/2.

*nodding head* ah, ah, yup, cool STi race car, *doing mental math* ok... surge tank...? Annnnd, you lost me.

Ha, ha. A surge tank is a small holding tank for fuel which is narrow and tall, that you pump fuel to from your main fuel tank, and then a fuel pump delivers fuel from the surge tank to your engine. Because it's narrow and tall the fuel pickup isn't starved around turns like the oem tank.

I'm getting fuel starvation with the oem fuel tank at certain tracks even with 1/2 tank of gas. So to keep a full tank I'll need lots of e85. My STi race setup can start a session with only 5 gallons in the tank because of the surge tank.

Looking at that chart that arghx7 posted, it seems like the octane rating effectively goes up quite a bit if sprayed with direct injectors rather than port injectors...:O Dunno what that "130" is but the numbers look like RON (the basic fuel is sitting at 98, which is normal "premium fuel"). 130RON sounds pretty good :D

Direct injection has a massive impact on detonation resistance. Basically on port injection only, when I was testing that, I could only match OEM HP with E85 and on pump gas I believe I was about 20 whp less.

Direct injection is definitely something worth embracing even with it's limitations which is why I'm really happy the FRS/BRZ also has port injection to supplement fuel delivery.

When you buy a set of injectors for the FRS, is it a set of 8 or just the direct injectors or just the port injectors. if it is just the direct injectors or just the port injectors, should i get 2 sets of the same or are are they different? is it even worth it to upgrade all of them if they come in sets of 4?

what types of injectors are available? which is best for street applications? which is best for cars that have occasional track days?

Holy Zombie thread.