Brakes Upgrades
 

I just picked up a 2016 FRS the other week and I'm loving it. I'm planning on going to some HPDE events soon and so I want to do some light upgrades. Probably going to keep the budget less then $2500 for now.

I've been checking out all the options for upgrades on this forum and I am really liking the idea of putting a supercharger in next year. I have a long list of parts to put in before then and I am thinking the best place to start would be tires, wheels, and brakes.

I have the base FRS so I don't have the nicer brembos that come on the release series. Is there a good source to pick up a set of these plus any needed hardware? New or refurbed doesn't matter

I know that better pads and rotors plus maybe stainless lines is a good option. I've found a stoptech kit with front and rear for $700. I'm sure that would be a good upgrade but I wonder if upgrading the calipers is worth it too. I am also not sure if thats a good brand or not.

Just found this kit for a wilwood BBK for $980. I'm thinking that's my best option so far. It's probably a bit overkill until I get more power but I doubt it could hurt.

all you really need are pads and fluid. getting a BBK is mostly for the bling and the 5% of owners who actually need it. I would say just buy some track pads and fluid then save the rest for other mods like proper tires and wheels. not to mention your average $120 entrance fee to the track too

You left out brake fluid from your list.
Brakes are certainly the first upgrade you should do. Better to have more braking capacity* than not enough.
If you are tracking your car on a regular basis a bbk is worth it. You save money on consumables in the long run. Less unsprung weight is also a benefit. I don't the idea of one piece rotors as they are usually heavier than 2 piece.
Rear brake hardware upgrade is un-necessary; a pad and fluid change is all that's required for the rear unless you are turning your car into a high powered track only car.
Forget about painted calipers. If you are using your brakes the paint is going to discolour.
Some dedicated light weight wheels with decent rubber is also a good investment.

*As you probably already know a bbk is not there to reduce braking distance but to manage heat.

Oh really?

Yes.

If one judges by wear, then rear pads need to be changed 4-5x less often. You won't gain much by changing rears too except bling factor.

If brakes are capable of locking wheels/triggering ABS (stock are already), then they are sufficient to have best braking distance. Only changing tires to more grippier ones will reduce braking distance (but so it will work with stock brakes too). With BBKs you simply can go on track for longer time without overheating them.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

So when STI upgrades the brakes of the car and changes the ABS trigger engagement levels, they don't know what they are doing.

:bonk:

No, I did not say that.
I am saying that tyres limit the braking distance. Larger brakes can handle more heat. STI is a faster car so it has more energy/heat to be dissipated with repeated braking.

"Big brake systems were not designed to stop your car sooner, but rather, stop it more efficiently and consistently. "
http://www.autos.com/aftermarket-par...ar-stop-faster

" A big brake kit will provide increased heat capacity, which means substantially more resistance to brake fade and caliper distortion with multiple stops from high speed"
http://www.wilwood.com/TechTip/TechFaqs.aspx

"If you want to decrease stopping distance you are far better served by buying stickier tyres......not with a properly designed big brake kit" @ 4.20 (my bold)

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QZLggq8AcY"]Know Brakes, Episode 4: Big Brake Kit FAQ - YouTube[/ame]

Yes. They do that because it's relatively cheap way to get big brand name calipers for bling purpose. Those that do understand problems that doing so will bring, brush it off with "i only daily drive it, so i'm ok with reduced brake performance" and "i will try to fix it with using different compound pads in front/rear", those that don't - "but those brakes came from heavier car and they are by brembo, they MUST be better!!111!". But in reality due different brake bias braking distance will most probably be longer due one end locking much sooner and abs having to delock it sooner, while other end is still underbraked. Or with abs switched off making car very unsafe to emergency brake till full wheel lock.
About the only time one may benefit from different brake bias, if overall car balance is changed. For example big downforce by aero bits on one end only, suspension tuned to shift heavily grip to one end vs stock, staggered tire setups (also usually done for stupid bling reasons) and so on. And even then one should get brakes with different bias carefully, to fix what's changed, not to make it other way even worse.

As for "more braking force" .. just and only when with some very wide track slicks and powerful downforce from big aero stock brakes cannot lock wheels anymore, once should think of BBK for any other reasons but primarly heat management, and secondary for cheaper wearables & for reduced weight. And btw, you can increase also stock brake stopping with race brake pads with higher friction Mu. And you also can enhance their heat capability with adding brake cooling air ducts.

User said that we wants to upgrade wheels, tires and brakes. I also don't think he needs better brakes and he is fine for the moment with better pads for HPDE events. However, this is different from the general misconception that bigger brakes are just for heat management.

I didn't watch only the part of the video @4.20, but the entire video. The guy from Essex says that these kits are designed to match the torque output of the factory. Their disk is bigger, so they can use less force in the pistons to generate the same torque. Thus, they have same stopping brake distance and better heat management. This is just a specific design choice of the particular product. Not of how brakes work in general!

I don't think they have any reason to do it for bling purposes. Not these particular guys.

I would just go with pads, lines and fluid to start, the stock system is pretty capable of stopping the car, if you start fading the stock system with race pads, then its time to upgrade to a BBK.

So if car & brake designers/manufacturers, tuning shops, very experienced racers say that it's wrong thing to do and will compromise braking .. of course some DIY-er claiming otherwise is the one to trust and there is no slightest doubt that they might be slightly less experienced/credible in that field then first camp, that whole brake industry is wrong and in conspiracy to shun such .. "upgrades"?
Everybody is free to do whatever one wants to his own car, hella-drop, insane cambers, cadillac & sti brake retrofits, staggered tires .. but i would love to not see such owners preaching to others that it's wise/right thing to do, that it is "improvement".
EDIT
Actually no, i would love to not see on public roads too, cars with compromised unpredictable braking, cars that low that gather long queues after them, when speed bumps need to be cleared and so on. MOT inspection shouldn't pass them as roadworthy to not endanger others.

OP, just get pads and fluid, if you can kill a set of Carbotech XP10s and boil some Motul RBF660 then you're ready for a BBK, if not you just saved yourself several hundred if not a thousand plus bucks.

Here's why people buy bbk for track:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94608

Note, that guy had no problem tracking on OE calipers and was getting three track days out of a set of high end pads, when you kill pads that fast is when you upgrade.

last weekend we got black flagged twice for cherry rotors. we convinced the Stuart that we could tell when things got too hot and fade started. we will be putting bigger brakes on this winter to help get rid of the heat and cooling ducks.
we were running stock except for Ferodo 2500.


oh, synthetic fluid, 888 tires and fi. we never did boil the fluid.

BTW, there IS one case, when rear BBK upgrade is warranted by practical/braking efficiency reasons. - If some particular front BBK is not designed brake-bias wise to work together with stockers, but only with matching rear BBK. And of course case if you want different functional construction, eg. with hydraulic e-brake for drifting .. in this case i doubt kit to not be marked 'for offroad use' though.

If bigger brakes are not just for heat management what are they for?
As @churchx mentioned most modern cars are capable of engaging the abs with stock brakes when cold. Given that maximum braking occurs just before wheel lock-up then isn't the tyre the limiting component?

@JRitt

Compared to my 2004 WRX, the BRZ has great braking. I have locked them by accident a few times when encountering idiots on the road. No way my WRX would brake as well. I think you do not need a BBK for autox or an occasional track day. Now if you start racing competitively then get one because every advantage counts. Any BBK on the road for a DD is bling. I think there are better ways to send the money, but it's your car and at least it will look nice.

You do not need a bbk for autox but how is going to the track a few times different from going many times? You still need brakes to last the session.

If session is 10 minutes and car is NA, stockers imho do just fine. With 15min fade was too much to my taste and i often replaced braking with drifting to bleed speed, and in one session that i prolonged to 20 minutes fluid was boiling :/
Still, depending on tire state and general tiredness/loosing concentration, 10 mins with cooling brakes & some rest for self between several such short sessions might be acceptable for many "occasional" track enthusiasts. I'm still VERY impressed how well car performed even 100% stock, and hate cases where people worsen it purely for bling reasons, while claiming that they wish to improve it. It deserves better than that. Good thing that involvement like that of Essex / RCE / CSG guys in this forum at least lessened that trend of many reigning myths and many car illiteracy caused common mistakes :)

Brakes Upgrades
 

I saw a skilled instructor turn consistently fast laps on various tracks on track pads and oem/similar rotors and calipers for a couple of years. Many track days, 20-45min sessions. Assume late and hard braking much more than riding brakes that can cause trouble.

Reducing consumable cost via cheaper pads due to a more common pad shape and thicker pads offering more life.

Yeah, I mentioned that in my first post above but I got hung up on the heat issue.

Thanks for all the replies everyone. After doing some research and considering what you've said I'm sticking to upgraded pads and fluid to start. I've never been on a track before so I am probably not going to come anywhere near to needing a full BBK for now.

I just ordered a bunch of parts and I threw in a set of Hawk Performance ceramic pads (front and rear). I want something that would be a nice upgrade over stock but not too harsh for normal driving. Does anyone have experience with these pads?

Also what do people think of the stock tires? I'm going to hold off on wheels and tires for a while so I can figure out what I want from them.

Cheap, durable, low levels of grip=lower risks while learning.

Use them, abuse them, when they're out of tread toss them out and don't look back. Start with OE pressures and when you start driving hard the edges will get chewed up telling you your starting to do it right.

Hard to argue with that. I've been really enjoying how easy it is to squeal the tires, I've been trying to get it sideways but the VSC always kicks in. Is there a quick guide to the different sport modes? I usually use the manual mode with the sport mode on, traction off, and VSC on (I press the middle sport button and the right VSC button). Is there a more aggressive mode? I know about the "pedal dance" fully off mode but that seems too much for normal street fun.

This.

TC fully off is holding the left TCS button for 3/5 seconds. This should be seen as no real difference to the pedal dance when on the road. VSC sport is "half way" between off and fully on.

I love driving but I usually keep it pretty tame on the street. I don't want to be "that guy". I plan on going to an HPDE (hopefully at Carolina Motorsports Park on Nov 3rd) to learn a lot and see what I can do in a safer environment.

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

@dooms101: yeah, go on track with just pads & fluid changed and on stock tires. I'm guessing that after few track days when you'll familiarise with car capabilities & limits (thankfully lower due low grip stock tires = better for learning), next cheap mod to improve car would be adding some negative camber (i advise leaving stock rubber topmounts, if you mostly dailydrive. Pillowball mounts of camber plates with stock coilovers = bad experience at least on bad roads here). Get camberbolts for front & SPC LCA for rear, tune max neg camber you can get with bolts front, and 0.5 less camber in rear, 0 toe in front, 0.1 toe-in rear. About that time you might get really hooked on trackdays (it's VERY ADDICTIVE :D), and probably through stock tires, so with some experience behind belt you may try grippier tires, eg. AD08 or MPSS of stock size. This is good point to stop spendings, if not, for future you may consider more track fit coilovers, maybe camber plates for more neg. camber then that of just camber bolts, wider & stickier tires, forced induction .. and yeah, BBK too. :D By this time you may start to feel and know what may seem lacking/limiting to YOU, and what exactly you wish to improve.

As for electronic nannies - i'd go first laps with VSC on (TRC off in simple way makes no difference, as reaching 20-30kmh it's back on again), and notice when it interrupts. Then - with TRC off (press 5sec for it to "stick"), or even better - with "Pedal dance".
But with later two options: 1) it's mostly up to you to not do stupid things and correct mistakes with pedal work and countersteering, no nannies that (though in unpleasant and too sudden way) will correct too big mistakes now and save you. Luckily on track it's often much safer to mistake then on public roads, with just sliding on wide track or grass to stop, not hitting road kerb/other cars/trees/walls.
2) more then probably you may spin-out few times. You can try to do it even intentionally (in safer spaces relative to others and with big enough area without obstacles to not hit anything when out of control) to get feel of spinning and timing to correct
3) remember about way less grip available on plate when wet, so with trc off 5s/pedal dance be way more careful during rain and in winter, entry speeds and accel should be way lower
4) remember that it's easier to lessen understeer with mass (&grip) transfer to front .. you can use slight braking & letting of gas to better turn, especially if you still have stock camber of 0, with car rather understeerish for safety. Adding gas in beginning or mid turn may make you plow front out, as it will reduce front grip.
5) i hope that HPDE instructor has tought right steering wheel hold/steering way and seating pose, will help to countersteer in much quicker fashion (the sooner it's done, the less correction angle is needed). Better leave shuffling out of track :)
6) don't get overconfident. Not just on track (you will get better with more seat time, but not suddenly ideal. After several track days this year i know limits of car better, i now spin out way less and can correct most of mistakes, but i'm still only at beginning of learning road), but especially on public roads after track (where i advise always leaving at least VSC on).

My apologies. Getting emotional content across the internet is a little difficult.
I wasn't having a go at you or implying you were a hoon.
The point I was trying to make was as Stugray said. That is, one track day is all it takes to make you realise you/I have a lot to learn.
Seriously, I left my first track day a little depressed because I had to re-assess my driving ability.

ABS was designed for better breaking performance on slippery conditions or bad quality pavement. What this has to do with breaking on the track? Very few people had issues with ABS on the track and this was usually on stock tires. When saying that only tires break the car, then lets start saying also that only low resistance tires make faster a car. Let's forget the engine parameter. If someone cannot understand basic principles and what a cooperation of systems means, then I cannot discuss more.

Hmm. Is this trolling, ignoring what everybody says?
And btw, ABS was designed mostly to keep control of car when emergency braking with wheel lock (no matter pavement), not reducing braking path.
Please read some articles on car and it's subsystems physics. If not theory behind, then at least actual real world tests of braking path with BBK or not, and with tires of more or less grip. Unless you consider all those theory articles / real world tests / car & brakes manufacturers & pro drivers claims to be falsified by some giant evil conspiracy to lie to you just as we all here lied. :)

You are misconstruing my argument.
I maintain that tyres are the limiting factor in braking distance.

I will state my premise:
if you can engage ABS (or lock the brakes without ABS) with stock brakes you cannot utilise any more braking torque.

@Racecomp Engineering
@CSG Mike

Actually, abs will be less useful on slippery condition and bad quality pavement. Think about icy road and gravel. Have you seen any rally cars using ABS?

While this was already answered, you should probably read the users manual again for the $25k piece of machinery you bought.

Thanks for all the tips. I was thinking I would leave the nannies on just to get used to track driving for the first session and then turn it off after that. I'd like to think that I'm going to keep it straight but I'm sure I'll spin out a bunch.

I've been drooling over suspension parts but I probably wont get anything for a while since I don't really know what I need. The Eibach kits look like a good value but I don't think changing the ride characteristics before I learn how to actually drive is a good idea. I only know a little about camber, toe-in/out, caster etc so I am going to do more research over the next couple months. I see a lot of people upgrading the LCAs right off the bat, is that mostly for adjustability? I'm guessing the stock ones are not adjustable.


Its all good, the more info and advice the better! I can't wait for my first track day, I'm just hoping I don't go out there and look like a fool. I have no idea if I'll do well or not. Hopefully I can keep it on the track at least :burnrubber:


I have it in front of me now :thumbup: