Need some sensible input... to FI or not
 

You can see the original post below quoted.
I think I'll limit the scope of my post.

The main question I should have really asked is: can anyone tell me how much faster these supercharger kits are making the platform? I can't wrap my head around how much the figures are really increasing the speed of the car. Is there some comparison or numbers people can provide, other than the whp and tq graphs?
I'd be willing to sacrifice some reliability if the increase is worth it. But that is really the underlying question. How much are people putting into it and how much work is it really in maintaining?

Which of the bolded do you really want? These are two radically different desires really.

What do you consider daily driving? Is it 20 miles a day or 200? This again makes a huge difference.

How big a risk are you willing to take? Every change to a car increases the risk of failure. It does not mean it WILL fail but the risk goes up. The bigger the change the greater the risk.

How much can you do yourself vs paying somebody else? The fact you said you would like to SC but stay on the factory tune would indicate that you may still have some learning to do. Even if you pay somebody to install a FI system and all the supporting mods you still will need to fully understand how it all works or will end up in trouble at some point.

How big is your budget? Going FI is not as simple as slapping a $1,000 SC on and calling it a day. There are many supporting mods that you need to buy and maintain. It ain't cheap especially if you are going hunting WRXs.

@RedFR-s can tell you all about the ups and downs of going FI.

EDIT: Dude! The answers have not changed since you last asked the exact same question.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90928

I'd just advise reading through the owners threads of which kits you want.

I'm just trying to get a sense of HOW much faster. I simply used the WRX as an example. Judging by your response, clearly that is not attainable from provided tune on one of the supercharger kits.

So maybe the better question is... with provided tune and kit, what supporting mods should I also need? So I can understand how much money it would cost to realistically have a good setup knowing I don't want to get too crazy.

I'm an engineer. I can read diagrams and schematics. I can do work and troubleshoot things. I *could* do it myself. If I need to understand what to look for or at when something goes wrong, I'm sure I could figure it out. So, how often do things go wrong then? This is exactly what has me worried, because I almost get the sense that you guys talk about it like it's weekly.

I've been reading through a few of those threads... and I tend to see a lot of dyno curves but again I don't see how that exactly translates to real life in comparison to other cars.

Are people mostly just doing ride alongs with those who went for a particular kit?

It depends on what you're comparing it to. I had full intentions of adding FI when I bought my car. It's hard to compare because I didn't compare it to anything. It just feels... well quicker.

edit: I did drive a Focus ST and a GTI, but honestly, the FRS with a supercharger felt quicker to me.

I have also driven a Focus ST, so that actually does help me get an idea of what to compare it to.

I did once a test drive of the HKS supercharger. It was really fast. Especially more torque from low. The car pulled in the mountains even from 5th gear. It would not just keep up with a WRX, it would be faster. So, the feeling was very positive. If you want to get easy results and without much expenses, then FI is the way to go. However, you are losing other things and somehow it negates the real fun. Basically, focusing on yourself and on the driving technique and changing your car the hard way and make it faster while staying NA.

Why don't you head out to some local meets, and ask for rides from FI owners?

His response was based on you saying "mfgs basic tune". Not sure if you mean the factory OEM tune or one of the tunes provided with the SC.

Almost any SC you pick (with a proper tune) will make the 86 faster than a stock WRX.
You don't "need" any supporting mods to achieve that.

I was putting down a bit over 250whp with a c30 JRSC and no other supporting mods. You don't need an upgraded clutch at that level.

It wasn't any extra work to maintain. Very minor things like checking the rotrex traction fluid level, belts and making sure clamps are still properly tightened.

As far as "feel" goes... You'll just have to drive one and decide for yourself.
It's easier for me to get a sense of how fast it is by reading a dyno graph than it is driving it.
A SC'd 86 will probably feel underwhelming or not as fast compared to a WRX just due to the low end torque it has, but it's top end suffers whereas the SC is just starting to make most of its power.

Well if your main concern is how often things go wrong there are as many different answers as there are guys with FI.
The experiences on here range from tens of thousands of trouble free miles to blew the engine on the dyno 15 minutes after completing the install and every conceivable condition in between. As I said before the modification of a car creates risk. The level of that risk can be mitigated to some extent but it remains elevated. Unfortunately the increase in risk to each individual set up is not measurable due to the number of variables so we can't assign a number and say "these are your odds".

You have asked if you should go FI in the FI section of a car forum and the answers yet get are likely going to be biased towards "do it" since they accept the risk. You need to be very sure that you also accept it if you decide to go this route.

Nothing else at all? Completely stock car other than SC?

Correct.

Do you want more power or to just accelerate faster? If you get lighter wheels, flywheel, and carbon fiber driveshaft you will accelerate faster without the expense of FI. If you really want the extra power then as TCOAT said you really don't have any idea what your experience might be. It could be great or you could be the unlucky one that gets a blown engine within a few months for who knows why.

And modified cars become to do lists. Read through the experiences of these people, some talk about always carrying an extra supercharger belt in the trunk because they snap so often, others about constantly tracking down leaks and the like. If you daily your car a long way and really don't want to risk reliability FI might not be for you.

There is no real way to make power unless you go with forced induction.


When you start making power there is a huge increase in likelihood of bending rods.


So, yeah.....

No exhaust? No E85? Nothing? Not doubting at all but geez that is quite the increase for just a SC. Maybe I will revisit my original SC plans.

92 pump gas. Totally stock.


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...a99431b5eb.jpg

JERK This could cost me money. Car is now out of warranty so the gloves can come off.

Do it.

#noregrats

I think the two main questions are the following:

Will my car still be reliable after I go S/C?

Will my car be as fast as I think I want it to be?

Reliability: Get a good reputable kit from a good reputable manufacture installed by a good reputable shop tuned by a good reputable tuner and keep up on maintenance and you should be in decent shape. Keep in mind it WILL NOT last as long as a stock motor, it adds inherit complexity and risk because you're making more power from the same components. Based on my research and learnings, the stock FA20 is up to the task of a nice bump in power, (The JRSC C30 and Edelbrock kits in stock trim seem to be quite reliable, and make great power.)

Will it be fast enough: These kits will push you back into the seat nicely through the power band. They will be less violent than a turbocharged car like the ST you drove recently. I think if you go to a local autox and try to get a ride along in a few basic supercharged cars you'll get a good idea of what you're getting into.

They will make similar power and be lighter than a 2015 WRX, so you'll be in good shape there if we're using it as a power benchmark. That said, those cars are making some pretty insane power with exhausts and a tune.
EDIT: I double checked, I was thinking of the 'all the killer b parts' 2015 WRX. It still drives nicely with a tune, but killer b is what's up on those cars.

My 05 wrx has a surge of torque when the turbo spools at 2500rpm, you do not get that with a supercharger. Down shifting is a must for the FRS with a centrifugal, you do have more torque than stock down low but its nothing like the (very fun) surge of torque a small factory turbo will give you.

If you wind the engine out at every shift you will be greeted with power that only continues to climb as you near redline. Very different driving characteristics IMO, I switch between the two when I get bored of whichever I am driving. Completely different experiences.

The SC will be as reliable as you can install/pay attention to details. Correct belt length/quality belt, alignment of pulleys, checking SC oil/engine oil at regular intervals.... if you are OCD like me, reliability stays the same. I had a belt failure on my system with a smaller pulley and incorrectly sized belt. This was my fault for running a belt that was the incorrect length. It walked off a pulley and shredded itself.

I now check my oil/belt weekly and have not seen any loss of fluids/belt wear beyond normal. If you decide to track the car and go with a vortech unit, look for the competition kit that has an engine oil fed supercharger. It is possible to overheat the "street" kit due to the low volume of self-contained SC oil. No issue on the street, and some people have tracked successfully.... but better safe than sorry. Engine oil cooler would be nice as well.

As far as turbocharger "violence" in acceleration/torque.... I had the stock turbo at factory pressure, tuned it to 20psi across the rev range, and finally went with a larger turbo that comfortably gives you around 300whp and a forged higher compression motor build. Even when this thing finally spools by 3500-3700 and gives you a surge of torque in first that will almost break the tires loose, its not "violent". Also, the gas pedal is not an on-off switch :) With a turbocharger and boost by gear/electronic boost control, you can control the amount/rate of power increase to not be so sudden.


TL;DR

It will be as reliable as you want it to be, there will always be something faster than you.
Also turbochargers can tune their pressures with the proper control solenoids/tune, which gives you expanded possibilities. Supercharger boost is regulated by engine RPM/pulley size.

:D:D:D

That was enough of a callout to make me double check. I was thinking about the "add Killer B everything" kit.

I love Killer B products :drool:

http://photos.killerbmotorsport.com/...size=1600x1200

Edelbrook claims 242hp with just their stage 1 supercharger and tune so it seems reasonable to me.

The guy installing superchargers here told me that you just need a good oil cooler (not the water based ones) and to use a thicker oil. Nothing else.

There is a way to make power and in general go faster, but very few know how. Check below the only NA car among the monsters:

http://i63.tinypic.com/155no6o.png

Additionally, it is an expensive direction. Value for money is to go FI.

Do I need to remind you what *replicating* that car would cost?

And that, is why I daily drive a WRX.

Mike, while we're all here discussing if FI is a good idea or not, how beneficial is one or two catch cans for a normal street driven vehicle? Is it something that would just be nice to have, or should it be budgeted in from day one?

So..... where did you come up with an S2K in a FRS thread? NA power with an FA20 is a pretty daunting task.

I was dailying my Forester XT for a long time, (5 years ish?) but when my commute was 2h15m/day I decided I wanted something that was new and got good gas mileage and ended up in the twin, sometimes I wish I went with a 15+ WRX but I get all the same thrills in the Forester. :burnrubber:

I have a forester X as a daily.... so then I get in my BRZ and it is "inspring." Exact opposite scenario to you.

Yeah the FXT handles my desire for power, monster grip, and having a riot, the BRZ takes care of the precision driving/driving sensation part of it.

Also the dog fits in the FXT better. :lol:

It really needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Check the hoses the catch cans would intercept, for oil. If there is, you will benefit. If they're dry, then the catch cans are moot.

Everyone's habits, needs, and perceptions are different; this is truly a YMMV.

I think you need to experience the CSG WRX (not my wrx; mine is J pipe + @DeliciousTuning flex fuel).

I would love to.

When will it be coming out to Palmer Motorsports Park so I can take a day off and ride along? :D

that has NOT been shown...
 

You have as many or more completely stock cars bending rods as FI, it's much more likely a quality control issue.

If you have one of the engines with poor quality control, FI MAY or may not cause them to fail prematurely, but it has not been shown that FI will make bending rods any more likely; however, it is important to keep in mind that the rods have been shown to go, so keep it in mind just in general.

Jaden

I don't want to read the whole thread, but IMHO a centrifugal blower unlocks what this car was really meant to be.

Reason I choose this route, simpler with less possible points of failure than a turbo, and the power curve is consistent with how this car was designed, just turned up a few notches. Under 300 WHP, the internals seem to handle without issue.

And believe me, a properly tuned twin at 276 peak WHP is plenty fast (my car).

It is possible. ASM is working now with FA20. S2K platform is too old and they have to look the future. Of course, they are still not there. You need years to develop something like this.

Yes I know. I've spent already in my car the cost of a SC and I am not even close. That's why I said value for money the best option is to go FI.