Autocrossing 2016 vs. 2017?
 

Good Afternoon,

I am looking at buying a FRS or BRZ, as a second car, to do some autocrossing and some track time.

Do the 2017's have any updates that are advantageous or should I also consider 2016's?

Do the BRZ or FRS have any specific advantages over each other? I seem to recall when they first came out that Toyota and Subaru were using their own ECU's and programming but I have not heard much about it since.

I won't be doing too many mods and I am basically looking for some cheap fun with relatively cheap tires that will still periodically haul two kids in booster seats (yes they fit). I was originally looking at STI's but I have read too many reviews about how much fun this platform is. My other vehicle is a 4Runner so practicality is not a concern.

Thank you for your help.

John

If you're looking for cheap fun and aren't opposed to the 2016 MY, then get an older used 2013 for half the price as they are virtually the same. The refresh to 2017 is negligible especially considering the new vs used cost. Used also gives you more room to budget mods if that's your goal

Well, if you don't mind spending money then the top of the line Performance-package BRZ will offer a bit more with suspension and brake upgrades over the older models.

This.^

Get a manual transmission car from any year from 2013-2016 (either FR-S or BRZ), and you'll be good to go. There are plenty of great low-mileage examples out there. No details announced so far for the 2017 model indicate that there will be any noticeable difference in performance versus the current cars. 5HP and a mild gearing change aren't going to make a dime's worth of difference in autocross or real-world driving.

2017 Manual Transmission cars get a slight horsepower improvement to 205hp over <'16 which have a peak 200hp. No reliable dyno charts have been produced yet so no idea what the character of that will be, likely unnoticeable to all but the most sensitive of butts, likely entirely replicated by an aftermarket tune and high flow air filter. There will also be a gearing change but that's a tradeoff not a straight performance advantage dependent on the course layout, ultimately not worth more than a tenth of a second or two which most drivers can easily lose on a mistake mistake or two during the run.

The BRZ is getting an option package with 'Brembo brakes' and slightly wider 7.5" wheels which should 'feel' better when paired with slightly bigger 225 tires (it will come with 215 tires. If you're competitive who knows what all this will do for the classing, better to wait a year.

A base FR-S will come in a few pounds lighter than a BRZ due to a lack of options (climate control, leather interior, heated seats, etc.) official figures are on the order of ~20 lbs different iirc.

IMO none of those are worth paying any more for, the money would be better spent in the aftermarket if you're serious about performance. I'd get the cheapest one that fulfills your needs so you can spend more money on event fees. If you're casual imo get seat time now, don't wait, there's a plethora of ways to update the current car to match what we know of the upcoming model. All the important stuff is remaining the same. If you can undercut MSRP I'd bet you'll easily come out ahead $/performance wise by buying a '16 on discount vs waiting for a '17+options.

Good luck.

:burnrubber:

Edit: Just re-read and caught the casual, not too many mawds aspect of the OP.

Absolutely buy a '16 or earlier, sounds like at the most you'll target building a CS car and end up with putting good tires on it in OE-ish size, TRD lowering springs and Koni/Bilstein struts, changing brake pads/fluid, along with a sway bar or two. Find the color you want, decide if you like the alacantara and HID's or cloth and halogens and drive home happy.

What class will you run? If CS, the FR-S gets the benefit of the TRD springs/sways (or get the model that already has them) for a small bit of help (you can still add an aftermarket swaybar with the TRD, I think most do front) - you'd need camber bolts and a legal shock/strut setup for full prep.

If you're going STX it matters little on platform - and you gain some/lose some with the '17... I was on the limiter twice (and it's not stock) yesterday, once for quite a while, had me weighing 3rd gear and the unsettling that might cause... then the storms popped up and cut our day short. The shorter rear end will help on acceleration, but make spots like this worse... I'd guess the gearing would be a net gain but... time will tell.

There are some deep, deep discounts available on new '16 FRS models since Scion is getting discontinued. Just be aware that having a "discontinued" brand (even if the model is still alive) may hurt resale value down the line.

Thanks for the tips, I will probably go with with a 2016 or older. Is the paint better on the FRS than the Subaru or do they both get the same Eco-friendly stuff that ages poorly?

Paint quality would be the same as built side by side.
FRS only color is the Hot Lava and Oceanic/Ultra Marine
BRZ only color is World Rally Blue (2013 had the Dark Blue as well, forgot the offical name of it)

Possibly dumb question: can you do the TRD springs in CS? That feels like a dealer modification, not factory. I'm probably missing something, though :)

(This is me both eyeballing that 2017 BRZ and thinking about CS prep for mine)

You can. But not on a BRZ. Only the FR-S.

*Not known for absolute certain if that *cough*cough* port thing is still on-going with the model update or not. Should be, I just can't confirm.

But, the BRZ is getting some wheel options that I don't think are coming for the FR-S/GT86. No idea if that extra 1/2" of wheel width produces a truly meaningful difference or not yet.

I do know that after last weekend's local, I do NOT want a shorter 2nd gear.

One of the trim options included the TRD parts... or some such. Check the CS thread for more.

My understanding is yes. I don't think Isley would've posted that picture...

Good point. Still, internet info and all that. To quote the my salesman, who, at the time was our region solo chair, upon my inquiring:

At least the salesman didn't pretend to know the answer.


My salesman told me that for only 2k, there'd be a factory turbo upgrade option two months after the FRS came out... uh huh

I haven't read this entire thread, but I did see some people suggesting that if you were going with the "1st generation" to look into the older ones.

Personally, I would avoid the 2013 MY. They seem to be most prone to issues that were resolved in later years.

Some may be more prone, but I wouldn't avoid the MY as a whole. Most of those issues were found in early production MY'13 models. I don't remember the exact date, but around May or June of 2013 many of those issues were resolved. I have a '13 that was made in July 2013 and haven't had any factory defect issues.

If you find a good deal on a MY'13 made in the 2nd half of the year, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

If you notice any panel fitment/gap/alignment issues that's a good indicator that it was part of the production that had issues.

Unless you really want a new car, definitely go used. These cars are nice a cheap right now, and the money you save will allow you to add some mods for whatever class you're planning to run.

Agreed, wouldn't hesitate on a 05/13+ build date FR-S/BRZ.

I have a 12/12 that hasn't been back to the dealer in almost 52k miles, only issue has been coil packs and new axle nuts.

I need to do a coil pack too. I've got one sitting around, just busy/lazy. lol

But, AFAIK, this is an issue with all MYs. Coil packs do not like the heat generated from track days and lack of ventilation in the engine bay.

You're going to want to hit a tire wall in a used 2013 BRZ, not a new 2017. I'm speaking from experience :-(

Absolutely, same story with axle nuts which have been a known Subaru issue for a decade+ (Here's a link literally from July 2006). The '14+ might have some quality of life upgrades inside the engine as manufacturing processes improved if memory serves, but the big killer was the tune and first like 4 months of production (mid '12) imo.

Unless I'm mistaken, this sounds like picking a car for casual, occasional autocross/track work. No one with multiple booster-seat-aged kids has time for a sorted track rat or STX Solo build. OP may not care if the 2017 doesn't reach 60-ish MPH in second gear, either.

The 2017 refresh addresses mainly drivability enhancements that make it more enjoyable. The answer is a Performance Pack 2017 BRZ, if nothing else because of the upgraded brakes already installed and financed into the situation.

Exactly why we're suggesting a used first gen, someone with multiple booster seat aged kids would probably be pretty happy to save about $10k over buying a new BRZ with 'drivability improvements' and experience 9.9/10 of the fun.

I'll take good pads for <$500 over the 'upgraded brakes' offered on the BRZ for likely >$2k because you're paying for the wheels and badging every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Especially if the car will ever hit the track.

I thought it was a shrubbery? Still...

How is the handling with stock springs sway bars on the rapid sharp direction changes of the Autocross courses? I am definitely staying in the stock class and I want to keep OEM or TRD parts so it is easier to sell in a few years when my kids outgrow the back seats. If TRD offers performance parts that Subaru doesn't and they will keep me in CS, and maintains warranty, that pretty much sells me on the FRS.

ECU's are identical, and programming was updated on both brands at roughly the same time IIRC.

I must have a freak early build date car (july 2012 delivery), the only warranty replacement it needed was a tail light. I do need a coil, but I blame the dozens of track days not the build date.

Not all of them had the issues, they were just more prone to them. Seems like body panel alignment was a fairly common issue with the early models.

Next week is the Solo Nationals, at or after which a lot of people expect the powers that be to make final rulings on all the proposed changes regarding the FR-S/BRZ in street classes: either moving BRZ and non-TRD FR-S to DS, or allowing BRZ drivers to use the TRD parts (this already seems to have received a pretty definite "no"). But the chance of a class move is still there. I'd wait until after that and make your decision once all book has been closed on that matter.

Stock suspension handles things pretty well, haven't driven a TRD equipped car yet. The FR-S is definitely more tail happy, but getting some Koni adjustables and sways can help you dial that back (or up) depending on your preference.

CS frs allows trd springs and both swaybars (allowing you to have one trd and another upgrade of your choice.)

Stock suspension isnt bad, and you can still change one bar with a brz, so unless youre trying to be super competitive or want a lowered car, a brz will be fine.

A stock 86 is really good. None of the TRD stuff is required to have fun or win your local autocross among competitors close to your skill level. Loaded down with family, the extra height of the stock springs may be preferable anyway.

I'm thinking a second set of wheels and tires (Rivals, RE71s, or similar) and a bigger front swaybar (there are plenty of unused TRD front bars sitting around, cheap). Maybe front factory camber bolts and Konis, too. That's all you need. This car's trick pony is being competent at both autocross and daily life with hardly any modifications.

I would wait until the dust settles after Solo Nationals next week, but I'll hazard a prediction: it won't matter. You'll be fine in whatever flavor you like best.