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Review: xiiimotorsports strut tower bar
Hey all, I've had the pleasure of trying out the XIIIMotorsports strut tower bar on my fairly stock brz. Now before I get into the review on the strut tower bar I'd like to share what upgrades I've done to the car and future plans in general with my brz. https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8326/2...4b29448c_h.jpgDSCF3297 by Daniel Cocar, on Flickr As for mods, fairly simple just a few bolt ons: Grimmspeed CAI JDL UEL catless header Nameless Performance track pipe (muffler delete) OFT Stage 2 UEL RPF1 17x9 +35 245/40/17 MPSS WC Lathe Werks Titanium sphere White line camber bolts (-1.3F/-1.5R) https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8807/2...f2eafd54_h.jpgDSCF3325 by Daniel Cocar, on Flickr As you can see fairly simple, the only suspension mods really would be the camber bolts in the front. Future upgrades I'm thinking RCE yellows and maybe some oem subaru camber bolts to get more negative camber up front. Before I do dip into anymore mods I'd like to take it to the track and see how the car reacts and feel out what I'd like to change. Now onto the strut bar review! Previously I was skepticle about any performance gain/advantage that a strut tower bar would give me. Before I stumbled upon Xiiimotorsports I had been eyeing the grimmspeed bar as I had already owned a product from them(CAI). Now I love supporting local shops so when I found out a local fabricator was making a strut tower bar for the 86 I was estatic! Fast forward a few weeks and I had the bar in my possession. This particular bar was in the semi gloss black finish which flowed so well with fairly stock looking engine bay. It paired up very nicely with my GS CAI to say the least. https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8816/2...12fe6143_h.jpgDSCF3355 by Daniel Cocar, on Flickr Now onto my first impressions. Threw on the bar and immediately went for a drive. First thing I noticed was that my turn in felt sharper. It felt much more stable and more confidence inspiring. This was especially noticeable on long sweeping corners where higher speeds could be achieved. I honestly couldn't believe the difference such a simple bar could do to the handling of my car. At this point I wanted to see if it was my mind playing tricks or if this was really making a difference. I take the bar off and bring it to my friend who owns a FRS. We install the bar and I let him have it for exactly 1 week. First thing I notice when I get onto the highway after removing the bar, the turn in isn't as sharp and the car feels very different. I don't feel as confident driving the car into corners anymore and at this point I'm starting to believe the performance gains that I felt when I first installed the strut tower bar. A few hours later I hear back from my friend with the frs. His words exactly " I could feel the difference instantly!" "the car feels more planted up front and stiffer". https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8865/2...03f27e83_h.jpgDSCF3312 by Daniel Cocar, on Flickr One week goes by and I meet up with my friend to get my awesome bar back :) He has nothing but good things to say about the bar. Although if you are running the stock intake and the sound tube routed to the cabin, the bar does rub on the sound tube bits near the passenger side strut tower. Spoke to Luke at xiiimotorsports about this and he will be fabricating a sound tube delete/plug for those looking to run the stock air intake box. Once I put the bar back in, I haven't looked back. I absolutely love the difference in handling that it has created. It just makes the car much more enjoyable to drive. I daily drive the car and I find it perfectly fine for my commute to work everyday. https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8530/2...a02c220f_h.jpgDSCF3310 by Daniel Cocar, on Flickr In terms of grading the product itself: Fit/finish: 10/10 fits perfectly snug onto our strut towers. Also love the fact that xiiimotorsports included a rubber clamp that keeps the ac line from rubbing onto the bar. Build quality: 10/10 The welds on this bar are about the best you will see on any parts for the 86. Bar is very stiff and lightweight which is always good for those keeping tabs on weight. Performance gain: 8.5/10 couldn't be happier with the difference this bar has made to my car. Can't wait to take the car to my local track and really push the car. Reason for the 8.5 rating is because when speaking to Luke (head fabricator at xiiimotorsports) he mentioned a more "race spec" bar coming into production that will be replacing the bars that attach from the strut tower and onto the firewall of our chassis. This will be a more complete solution for those looking for a much stiffer ride. Also believe that this version will also have a master cylinder brace worked into it as well. Price/value: 9/10 This is a very well priced bar and considering it bolts on to the stock hardware it is an awesome buy IMO. Overall rating 9.4/10 Very satisfied with this product and I would definitely recommend this to anyone that is looking to upgrade the handling on the 86. It's a good bang for your buck mod and it looks really good in my engine bay :D As of right now I believe there is two finishes available(custom colours available as an added option): Semi gloss black (same as pictured above) Raw finish + clear coat http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p...47381471_n.jpg |
So what's the final price? Any testing done by them to prove that it actually works? What sets them apart from a brand such as GrimmSpeed who has actually proven their bar works and is at an extremely reasonable price point?
Edit: did you pay for the strut bar, or was it given to you in return for this review? |
So if I would still have my brz, I would probably buy this... As I can certainly vouch for xiii motorsports, in workmanship and quality of there products, I've bought plenty of parts from xiii motorsports for my 1992 toyota gt-four, and there stuff has never let me down... And for the strut bar, proven test and what not, I do not know, all I know is xiii motorsports fabricates incredible products that are definitely built to last
Sent from my LG-D852G using Tapatalk |
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If you would like to know more of the technical details I'm sure Luke from xiiimotorosports would be more than happy to answer any questions you may have. I was not paid to do this review, nor was I "gifted" the bar in exchange for this review. I paid for this bar to be custom fabricated on the brz/frs/86 chassis, and it is now available to the public for purchase. I decided to write up this review because I was really impressed with the craftsmanship of the final product. Quote:
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Just FYI he will be making more products for this chassis so keep an eye out. |
Any idea how much it weighs?
-Josh |
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EDIT*** The strut bar with the AC line clamp comes in at 2.2lbs on my scale at home. Not 100% sure on the accuracy of this scale, but I will ask Luke to weigh them at the shop to be sure :) |
Review: xiiimotorsports strut tower bar
Would like to point out that xiiimotorsports has no data to back up that their strut bar actually works. So, I'm definitely going to assume that you got a hook up from them.
Forgive my spelling mistake on GrimmSpeed. Phones are a bitch to type on sometimes. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...c784d8327f.png Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Yay! Someone finally had the guts to say that this is a blatant ripoff of the Grimmspeed bar!
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-Josh |
Ok, but it's still a ripoff of the Grimmspeed bar.
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There are tons on the market with a very similar design... http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/race...ace-front.html http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/perr...l#.V7OjG5MrLXE http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/ft-8...l#.V7OjXZMrLXE :iono: |
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The first link isn't a strut bar, those are replacement for the cross bars to the firewall. Good solid design, beautiful too. Raceseng does good work, and unique designs. Second link came out after we released our strut bar, and I was VERY surprised to see it since at the time there was nothing on the market like it. However, the aluminum brackets and clamping is certainly a different design. The third design is one of the oldest. We weren't a fan of the "cut and weld bent bar" design, as it introduces points of failure that don't need to exist and is slightly less effective for it's diameter than a straight bar. BUT the absolute thing we didn't like from a design aspect was that there was zero reinforcement to the mounting brackets at all. Take a piece of 1/8in thick flat steel, and you can flex it with only your hands. Now start to transmit 500+lb horizontal loads from cornering through it, and it should be clear it is doing nothing at all but flexing back and forth. That is what makes our strut bar unique, it has an end bracket design that maximizes rigidity with it's allotted space. I spent a lot of time designing and performing finite element analysis on this bracket design to hit an acceptable deflection with realistic loads. It might look simple, but bolting to the stock bars, and maximizing rigidity while minimizing size and weight took a good deal of effort. http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p...47381471_n.jpg http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server50...0.1280.jpg?c=2 Now, it's very, very hard to deny that there is an extreme similarity here. With the former looking nearly identical, but having added about a half inch or so to the straight section for some reason. And it looks to be about half as thick. Adding length = longer lever arm = less rigid (is it easier to bend a tube that is 1 feet long, or two feet long?). Reducing thickness = less rigid. Reducing the thickness of the bar = less rigid. I did lots of testing and FEA in order to decrease weight of our strut bar (ours is 3.95lbs) and this one is 2.2, and I can tell you that the loss in rigidity in our design from reducing thickness was severe enough that we went with a heavier design. So with that said, even though this bar looks nearly identical in shape (even down to the weld-on logo placement), it's not. So no need to call it a knock-off ;) Chase Engineering |
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I will tell you right now the Xiiimotorsports bar will do everything anyone elses bar does...... Not for one minutes will you sell me on stronger better faster.. Look what the bar bolts to, a piece of shit thin metal bracket held on by 4 spot welds...... (its only as strong as its weakest link)
It's getting real annoying people say how their crap is the best and it's nothing more than a copy of what's been done. How about we invent something new and revolutionary, equipment that works instead of a modified copy.... Look at the new turbo kits mostly copies of something that someone else has already done.. roll bars just about a identical copy of what's been done.. And half the new shit is worse than the old and dangerous.... Come on People we are better than this........shm |
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Now while on the forum there has been one failure of the spot welds on this mount, on a car that has seen track time, without any additional failures it really seems more like a manufacturing defect rather than a design flaw. BUT, I've also seen this: http://www.grimmspeed.com/content/im...edStrutBar.png Mount and strut bar completely in tact. Stock reinforcement bar completely buckled. This was from a forward impact, and it didnt affect the spot welds, but completely bent the stock bar. Do you have any idea what kind of forces it would take from a foward (completely compressive) hit to bend that bar? And in order to do so all the force would have had to have been transmitted through the "POS thin metal bracket held on by 4 spot welds." So that bracket is FAR from the weakest link in the system. That's like saying the strut towers wont be able to take the force of the spring and shock load, as well as any fore, aft, lateral forces generated from the tire because it's made out of thin sheet metal. The same thickness as the bracket in fact. Quote:
The people who are making copies are not. And unfortunately many places that are are committing the sin I just posted where you "look at something and decide if it works or not." The copies (and the people who buy the copies) are scaring real research and development away, which is why you keep seeing the same old stuff over and over. Cue that mic drop, Chase Engineering |
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Once again your wrong, you have failed to acknowledge the crumple zones built into the car, that's true engineering. Do really believe that your magic bar stopped all that damage??? You might as well say strapping a pillow to the steering wheel is as good as a air bag.. Like you said frontal impact. The crumple zones reduce the kinetic energy of the impact. Show me a picture of your bar after getting a side impact into the wheel strut area... now the "mic drop" didn't mean to hurt any feeling but come on |
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Hopefully you can see it in a new light once you understand what you're looking at. And no hurt feelings at all, I'm simply here to educate. Chase Engineering |
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1: I stated, that their bar will do what anyone else's will and the brackets are the weakest link. Can we agree on that. This whole thread is about a bar. 2: You decided to go off topic and shift over to the brackets again this thread was about the bars... 3: 2 things you need to accept 1 the brackets are not designed to be used with a cross bar and the correct way to build one would be to attach it to the strut tower directly but your all engineers and know this, attaching anything to the factory brackets could create a negative outcome of the OEM design. I know everyone does it but that doesn't mean its right. 2: the factory brackets are made to tear away in a crash and to help absorb kinetic energy in a crash. If not wouldn't it be cheaper for Subaru to bolt the bar to the strut tower.... You can belittle me all you want or talk down to me all you want I don't care. If your going to educate at least tell the whole story instead of the one that sales... |
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First off, please try to be respectful when criticizing a supplier who actively supports our community (with engineering content, customer support, group buys, and vendor fees).
As a quality engineer, I'll add my 2 cents: - Bolting to that area is relatively risk-free. There's plenty of reinforcement at the strut mounts, and M10 bolts can withstand ~5000 lbs in single shear (Class 8.8). With 2 on each side, I'm pretty certain other components will be failing first. - The difference between stitch/spot welds and running a full bead is minimal. Tack welds are a different story. - The XIIIMotorsports bar looks over-designed, but more structural rigidity is a good thing. - If Grimmspeed isn't getting significant field returns or customer complaints, that's a good indicator of quality. Validation/Simulations are an important part of the R&D process, but field data is king. We all want good quality parts in the aftermarket, and both of these fit the bill. From what I can tell XIIIMotorsports makes some legit bushings/mounts for other vehicles. Their bar looks beefy. There's no reason to suspect that they copied Grimmspeed's design, since this is a mature product sector with FT86Speedfactory and Perrin also having similar "keep it simple" solutions. If I were in the market for a strut brace, I'd support the guys who invested early in their R&D with legit tools (like a FARO arm), data analysis, and taking the time to market the product transparently. |
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First off I believe respect should be both ways not just one way. When people speak to others as if they are ignorant I lose respect quick. If my opening post was a little to blunt for some and their feelings are hurt I apologize . Now as far as bars go, I could care less who's bar it is, if it's bolted to the brackets it will perform the same.. IF they are built comparably the same. Here is the kicker that really needs to be addressed in my opinion. The brackets are not designed to be used for a crossbar and that's apparent. 1. they are thin 2. they are spot welded with 4 spots. The factory bars are designed to absorb kinetic energy from a crash. Along with the crumple zones. So when you triangulate the bars you just strengthened a safety feature and effectively rendered it useless as it will no longer perform as designed, that's a fact.... Some people don't care, some people don't think about it but all in all it should be known to all this is a safety device modification. Now as far as stitch welding, spot welding and seam welding it is far from a minimal in strength difference but that's another topic. The bolt shear strength doesn't really matter as the welds will fail before the bolts. In all fairness I will say I run a crossbar and it is bolted to the bracket. Also I run the Grimmspeed hood struts.. I have no problem with Grimmspeed...Or any other vendor but I will never lay down and let someone talk to me in a belittling way. Period....I don't hold it against the company that one engineer made some questionable remarks he could have been having a bad day, we all do..... |
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It was the negative comments insinuating that what we do isn't true engineering, and that we have no clue what we're talking about that forced me to leave the conversation instead of further explaining the strength of the brackets. A 3 dimensional formed piece of steel is stronger than its "thin," flat counterpart. And the strength of the bar must be at least comparable to provide significant benefit. That is why my comments about the bracket were relevant, despite your claim that they are not. Again, this is why I left the conversation and will be gone after. I apologize to those who were interested in continued discussion. Quote:
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However with that said, respect belongs where respect is due. I'm all for engaging in productive and educating discussions. When we make claims we provide evidence via testing or data. Many choose to ignore that, and that's okay. But to insult our abilities and knowledge as engineers and say that we're ignorant of the structural components and forces involved in vehicles that we make components for is beyond insulting. The anonymity of the internet I think makes people forget they are speaking to real people. I greatly apologize for how off topic this review has gotten, and for that I'll be exiting the conversation. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree unless you have any data to back up any of your claims. Chase Engineering |
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This thread have been interesting and educational. :thanks: |
Ok let’s do this,
1: After my initial post the first sentence you said was “Presenting opinion as fact is a very dangerous thing to a community. The "POS thin metal bracket held on by 4 spot welds" is a LOT stronger than you think. Just because a bracket is thin, doesn't mean it's weak, especially if it is stamped into a known TESTED structure. 4 spot welds can also hold a LOT more than you think, especially when they are designed with a specific mounting intent to do so. The engineers who designed this car were not born yesterday, and certainly knew what they were doing when that designed a mount that takes loads from both cornering, as well as braking” I find this very rude and condescending, then you close with this jab. “Cue that mic drop, Chase Engineering” Cue the mic drop???? You say this and think I should show respect? Nowhere did I state anything about Grimmspeed, I even gave examples of what I was talking about. Here I will post it again so you can re-read it and maybe understand what im talking about. That’s basically what you told me right. I didn’t understand what I read. “I will tell you right now the Xiiimotorsports bar will do everything anyone elses bar does...... Not for one minutes will you sell me on stronger better faster.. Look what the bar bolts to, a piece of shit thin metal bracket held on by 4 spot welds...... (its only as strong as its weakest link) It's getting real annoying people say how their crap is the best and it's nothing more than a copy of what's been done. How about we invent something new and revolutionary, equipment that works instead of a modified copy.... Look at the new turbo kits mostly copies of something that someone else has already done. roll bars just about a identical copy of what's been done. And half the new shit is worse than the old and dangerous.... Come on People we are better than this........shm” This is directed to everyone, anyone who wants to develop not just you. I’m not going to address every time your feelings were hurt so let’s move on. “I engaged in this discussion providing not only facts, but actual photo evidence backing up my claims about the mounting brackets not "being the weak link." Your photo evidence is not factual at all because it does not, will not, and cannot pertain to this discussion.
“Now as far as bars go, I could care less who's bar it is, if it's bolted to the brackets it will perform the same.. IF they are built comparably the same.” “ That's a lofty claim, do you have any data to back that up, or is that purely anecdotal?” I should ask you the same Please post your results and data on the bars you tested against yours. No butt dynos or it just feels better please… hard data please “So when you triangulate the bars you just strengthened a safety feature and effectively rendered it useless as it will no longer perform as designed, that's a fact...”. I should clarify on this because I didn't write it clearly. Its not useless but is no longer up performing to factory spec. I apologize for the confusion. Again, I'm interested to see any data or information about this. I know that I posted a picture showing the opposite of this, but I'm open to any proof that you have if that is a fact.” Actually the picture shows exactly this. Engineering 101 a triangle is strong right, well the brackets didn't tear away 1: No one can say for sure because the car crash was not in a controlled environment under precise conditions so there is no way really to say. Now when it comes to engineering a part or system everything works together change one thing and you and you changed the whole matrix…. I have over 30 years in the automotive field. I don’t dream this up. I will try my best to gather the info you requested it might be hard but I’m willing to try I have some contacts at Subaru. So in closing does any of this really matter? Is a crossover bar going to fail and cost someone their life? Probably not or better yet most likely not very slim chance. Probably have a better chance of getting in a shark attack. But yes it does change things. |
Smh i put a Cusco strut bar on over two years ago and have never felt a difference lol
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Wasn't Cusco sticker sufficient for that? :)
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I bought my Grimmspeed bar cause of the development thread on here, they are the only company that worked with the community to develop it, and showed so much of the testing and R&D that went into it!
For a company to do that, it earned a lot of respect in my books! Keep up the good work boys! Cusco I think had their strut brace out before the cars were released.. I also bought mine pretty much for looks, was surprised when I noticed a difference (think its due to the stiff, aftermarket coilovers) |
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