Rear Suspension Do Over I guess
 

So I ran out of talent, coincidentally with all traction control off on my car with shitty tires, but really, I just lost talent. I crashed/wrecked/bumped my car a few days ago. Oversteer, countersteer, snap oversteer the other way into some fun little 60mph spins until I hit a curb square on the passenger side.

Shop got back to me on what is wrong. Basically needs to be replaced: two wheels, two tires, the rear subframe, along with my cut brake line, one shock (I'm having them put on RCE springs while they've got it torn down) rear sway bar, looks like a bunch of types of lateral link assemblies, rear sway bar, wheels and tires somehow will need to be replaced (I think they're only going to replace two).

So, MY QUESTION! If you had to remove and replace all those rear components, anything aftermarket you'd replace OE with while you were down there? I figured sway bar, springs, (shocks wouldn't necessarily be cost effective since they're only replacing one). And then wheels and tires if possible. What would you spend some money on to replace? Or is there nothing down there of consequence?

And I'd like to support forum vendors when at all possible of course.

Thanks again for all your help!

Jeff Higgins

Im not an expert on aftermarket pieces by any means. But if they are going to replace only 1 shock, I'd go ahead and replace both. Even if you still put OEM back in. Shocks degrade over time and their dampinenig abilities diminish. Having a brand new shock on a corner with 3 worned down shocks elsewhere is going to give you uneven handling on right and left turns, possibly under acceleration (tho power is not something we have a ton of...).

You said you would be replacing springs with RCE, why not go ahead and get Bilstein b6 or something like that to go along with. It might even be a chance to go with coilovers if you ever planned on that down the road.

You car, your decisions of course, so dont dig too much on what people say and make your own conclusions. Be careful out there and dont let this bump, time to level up!

If I tracked my car, I would replace the LCAs, toe arms, and trailing arms with SPL products. Since I only daily drive my car, I'd get a cheaper LCA and OEM for the others. Get Whiteline diff carrier bushing inserts and maybe subframe bushing inserts.

When you replace the swaybar, what effect do you want it to have? More oversteer or understeer?

Make sure they inspect the CV joints and maybe inside the diff for damage. Axles are pretty strong when they're used properly, but they're not meant to be smacked right on the end like that.

Thanks! Well, I like oversteer, but this snap oversteer thing I wasn't fond of. I'll be replacing my tires with non-shitty ones, so I'd probably lean towards a touch more oversteer, and removing my traction control turn off buttons from the car and put in my garage. :)

The only thing worth upgrading back there is the rear lower control arm for camber adjustment. And I wouldn't bother if the front is at stock or stock-ish camber (read <-2 degrees).

I'd say save some serious cash and buy used parts but it sounds like it's too late for that. People dump their OE stuff that still has new car smell on it for peanuts around here.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107788
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104599
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103889

I've seen OE toe links and LCA's and other bits and bobs as well, just nothing recent.

I would upgrade everything possible. Its going to be torn down and the car has an unclean history now, might as well put new suspension, good wheels / tires, adjustable suspension components and some polyurethane pieces. Check out "power by max" as they seem to have some low prices but everyone says they're good quality pieces. If you're already doing springs on all four corners might as well go even further.

Seen someone selling braided brake hoses too, might as well jump in to brake upgrades as well.

Jmo.

I'm going with a mixture of whatever aftermarket I should get, brand new OEM, and there's a wrecked FR-S that had 4,000 miles opposed to my 27k, I'll use the used parts in some areas... Tires, required, going to spend a little on those to get really good ones. They're only springing for two OEM wheels, so I'm not sure how I'll swing new wheels.

All we know is.... He's called The Stig

Part of my response that I forgot: I can disassemble and change the rear springs in my car in about 1 hour with another pair of hands helping, it's not labor intensive to replace parts back there imo.

Oh, my shop is switching stock springs for RCE springs and doing a performance alignment when it's all done.

All we know is.... He's called The Stig

The stock parts work just fine. After four years of owning my car, I've never seen a reason to upgrade the arms, links, or sway bar.

12mm camber bolts can get you camber adjustment for the rear.

A bigger sway bar will only cause more oversteer.

The only reason to upgrade the rims is astethics and extra width can lose steering feel.

Good tires, Yellows, and B6 dampers is all I would do.

Uhh, how about buying some talent? Not digging at you, and I don't know what your talent level is, but bolting on more grip only means that you'll be going faster the next time you lose control.

Go spend some time/money on track days and autocross.

EESCC is local to you.

Next autox is Aug 5/6 at Willamette Pass.

edit: I'll be there if you need a helping hand (if it's your first autox).

I don't know what EESCC is (I'll look it up when I'm done posting), but an autox would be very cool! Not even necessarily to participate, at least to watch and dip a toe in.

We should definitely hook up there, pm me!

All we know is.... He's called The Stig

Emerald Empire Sports Car Club.

www.eescc.org

http://www.eescc.org/EESCC2016Schedule.cfm

Better tires isnt the solution. All that means is you will have more speed when you run out of talent next time.

Prius tires are actually good for that exact reason

I didn't take it as a dig, no worries. Nothing but truth. In reality, I've driven some pretty exotic cars in some great places, but that doesn't mean I'm incredibly talented by any means.

I have only had this car for a month, I've put no performance mods on it, nothing but a better head unit (and cup holders that were missing).

My goal was to save up money for safety gear and to take a couple high speed performance driving classes (need two before you can go out alone on track days I think) at PIR, then go for an occasional track day once I had any kind of talent.

So, I completely agree with you! I just have been having fun with all traction nannies off, but that morning I must have been just out of my mind. Completely juvenile, dangerous, and not "me."

From now on, traction control stays on at all times. And I will not act like a freakin' 19 year old.

You know the worst part?

I wrote my deductible check, yeah, it would have been enough for my performance driving classes. Ironic.

All we know is.... He's called The Stig

When I was on the Prius tires I wasn't getting enough feedback and found I didn't get enough warning before things let go. I had a couple of near misses. So, I started looking for ways to get more feedback. I put in some bushing inserts and started doing what I could to become smoother, but it wasn't working. The bushing inserts helped, but I still found the back end came out unpredictably, no matter how smooth I was. Putting better tires on it made a world of difference. Yes, there was more grip, but it was easier to manage.

Tuning your car towards more oversteer will just make the "snap oversteer" worse. You need to figure out what driver error cause the problem. Over countered? Lifted off throttle? Turned off traction control on the street with curbs around? Other?

Rce yellows and better tires and alignment would help a lot. Suggestion to go to a track day/hpde or skid pad to learn/practice.

Thank you. Yellows waiting to be installed, better tires on way after wheel is chosen, and, just as the above two were already explained in the thread, if you'd bothered to read the thread you'd know that I'm also fully committed both before and more so after the crash, to take two HPDE classes so I can get my approval at PIR to go out on track days by myself.

Who knows, maybe even more classes! I like to learn. Do you @swarb?


All we know is.... He's called The Stig

Just adding another opinion.
Yep, I learn every day.
I learn from other's mistakes.
Some people learn the hard way.

Also suggestion to get some good brake pads and fresh/better brake fluid before you hit the track.

Absolutely! CSG Mike is going to set me up with specific track pads and high quality brake fluid before I go to classes. I can't remember how many track days before replacing fluid again, but I'll ask him once I'm booked and place my orders



All we know is.... He's called The Stig

Like Clarkson said when he reviewed the car, that's the beauty of the Prius tires - you're going so slow that if you make a mess of things and are headed for a tree, you can simply open the door and get out.

I can attest that THAT is incorrect. You can spin going pretty fast too... Although I didn't have Prius tires.

All we know is.... He's called The Stig

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
- Douglas Adams

Best of luck and enjoy the seat time!

:cheers:

Hey wait a... Did he... Did he just call me a fool?

Lol

All we know is.... He's called The Stig

Good on you for wanting safety gear. For getting your feet wet, you're fine with a helmet plus upgraded pads and fluid, plus trackday insurance from Lockton. If you go to an autocross you don't even need to upgrade the pads/fluid or bother with trackday insurance, and they might have loaner helmets.

The problem most people have is they don't understand how much they don't know about car control. Dip your toes in and you're not going to turn into a hero driver overnight, but you will begin to understand just how much you don't know. This knowledge alone will generate some respect for the car and probably save your butt next time.

So I would encourage you to get out there and not just watch, but participate the first time whether it's autocross or a track day. You've even got people willing to help show you the way. Go make it happen.

Am I reading this wrong, or did you just call me a complete fool for getting the back end out in a stock frs?

I think you've interpreted it incorrectly, I thought about explaining more thoroughly but decided against it. Here's the long and short of it.

My intent is that you and OP appear to think you know better than Toyota's engineers, Subarus engineers, experienced and respected journalists, racing drivers, enthusiasts, tuning and aftermarket companies, and a huge chunk of trusted drivers education and training materials by blaming the tires for the behavior you experienced.

Yes it's possible to get the ass end out in a stock 86, I did it many times myself. The key there is "I did it", not the tires, not the road conditions, not the suspension design: me. The nut behind the wheel is in full control, placing blame elsewhere is dumb.

Sure the car can be improved, but to imply there's something dangerous or wrong with the car in stock form is foolishness imo.

As the OP, I would like to respond to @strat61caster,and let him know I do sometimes respond to utter nonsense or disparaging statements.

***Please cite sources where I blamed tires for my accident.***

Even though it's beside the point, you have no damned idea what tires I have on my car or their condition.

I can guarantee that no Toyota engineer, Subaru engineer, racer, or drivers education peeps had anything to do with them, and, if examined by them, would not only not sign off, but run the other way.

Again, that's a little evidence you may be assuming a bit much in your holier than thou post.

I did NOT blame the accident on the tires, ever. At worst, they simply didn't make the situation easier.

So again, ***please cite sources*** (or to make it simpler, just one source in context) of when I said the tires were to blame. If you can't, maybe not accuse me of such bullshit? Think you might be able to handle something like that? Thanks.

Wow, really? Thanks! I'm such a noob at driving, I couldn't tell at all. I mean if it even happens to you...clearly!

If you're going to disparage my skills, knowledge, honesty, or intent, etc. again, you better have proof or ***sources*** of what you believe I said.

I'm not on this freakin' car forum to have flame wars with immature people who have no idea how to conduct themselves, or even read and interpret other people's words.

Again, broken record, you really need to learn to ***cite sources***. I don't even believe this car is inherently dangerous or anything wrong with it, so why on earth would I say it?? Jeez

I've talked about it in multiple threads over the last few days (at the obviously real risk of getting trashed and made fun of, and that's fine. I know when I do something wrong, and when I don't). I'm assuming you know about multiple threads since you believe you know what I say and think, but I'll say it unequivocally, again. This time, feel free to use it as a future source. I'll even separate it so it's easier to copy.

***Source***
This accident/crash/whatever, was absolutely my fault, and I made multiple mistakes that led up to it.

I had traction control completely off (except the pedal dance). No reason to do that on the streets. I was driving too fast. I was not familiar with that corner at those speeds. And, unfortunately I can't tell you exactly what, it happened fast, but I'm sure I made multiple driving mistakes right before, and during the spin. I've taken motorcycle racing education and schools, but not cars yet. To make it clear strat, I understand both machines have tires and many of the same controls, brakes, throttle, steering mechanism, etc, but these machines operate very differently and have different emergency avoidance procedures.

I will say, and strat, don't take this out of context, but I know for a fact this would have been less likely to have happened with different tires than I had. That's just like saying though it would have been less likely to happen if I was going a reasonable speed, or if I had traction control completely turned on, or if I was a better driver, whatever.

So, let me know when you get those sources strat. Until then, troll someone else.

Have a wonderful day!



All we know is.... He's called The Stig

Oh and just to remind people, I started this thread with the words "So I ran out of talent." Yeah, so there's that.

Now I'm not in as good of a mood anymore, thanks strat!

Lol

All we know is.... He's called The Stig

@FNCrazy that post that you took offense to was directed at @Calum I did not intend to slander.

As for why I came to the conclusions I did, here are the highlights:

I wasn't the only person who got a similar impression out of your posts.

I've seen @Calum post similar things for years about the OE tires which is what prompted my post along with your sentiments of upgrading the car. Again, that post was written for Calum because he asked the question, if it was targeted at you I would have quoted or mentioned you. I have nothing else to say about your personal situation other than I hope you get your car back soon in tip top shape and you enjoy driving it hard.

:cheers:

So you crashed your car and now thinking about aftermarket parts? The chances by throwing random parts here and there is to have an even more dangerous car. I would suggest to focus more on your accident and think how you can improve yourself. Especially how to drive on public streets and in general what are the car's limits. Next time you might not be so lucky ...

You call him and the OP out specifically. I'm assuming OP still stands for original poster, yes? Hi, that's me!

First, I've never even been on OEM tires, so I don't like or dislike them. I was talking about *mine*.

I also never said I gave them a glorious review, I definitely don't like them, and did say they were shitty. If you were here I'm sure you'd agree.

The tricky part though, was where was I laying blame?

Ill just do the first of your quotes of my quotes... If that makes any damn sense.

In that sentence YOU quoted I said not once, but twice, that I had ran out of talent (I said that when someone asked what happened). First, at the very beginning, then I mentioned I had traction control off and shitty tires (which are two facts by the way, not used as excuses), and finished the sentence as in reality, I just ran out of talent.

That says to you I blame the tires??? OK... I don't see it, but it's all good.

I'm out. I have no idea what this little tire war y'all got going is, but I want no part of it.

Peace.


All we know is.... He's called The Stig

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to sound that rude. Just a stressful day and shorter fuse than normal.

Also, it's a pet peeve of mine when people don't take responsibility for their actions and blame everything else.

So, for someone to insinuate that about me kinda hit a button.

I have tried very hard each time I've talked about this on the forum to make sure people realize I know I screwed up, and take full responsibility for it.



All we know is.... He's called The Stig

Wow, I just need to stay out of this thread I think. Lol.

Yes, I talked about replacing some parts with aftermarket. And? I believe we wouldn't have a forum without aftermarket. Aftermarket and fast/crazy/dangerous aren't synonyms.

Who said anything about throwing random parts here and there anyway?

I talked to people on these forums, and 3 racers about what, if anything, I should switch to aftermarket while it's torn apart. We put our heads together and sat down to get all crazy and shit, lob some parts around, see what happens.

The conclusion we came to, to really crazy it up, was a set of LCA's if I decide later down the road I'd like to adjust the rear camber a bit, and possibly a cat back exhaust if I can find a used one I like, since the oem will need to be removed anyway.

Not exactly lobbing parts around to see what happens, or even adjust the handling to dial out my lack of talent.

I've already said how stupid, dangerous, and completely unlike my normal demeanor to act like that. Said it many times on the forum.

Also, I said before and after that I planned on taking high speed driving classes, two of them, up at PIR. I just needed to, wait for it, finish wearing these tires out so I could go to the track with safe ones. Also save money of course.

Anyway, yeah, you can judge me if you want too. I had the balls to post the opposite of cockiness, bordering on self-deprecation, online for the "world" to see my mistakes.

I'm done making excuses. I fucked up, I am attempting to make sure it never happens again, I haven't lied, have taken responsibility for my actions, and took the high road for all but you last two that have piled on. Guess what? I'm not as bad a driver as I let on to be. It's just easier than trying to Internet race. I've driven exotic cars all over the world, gone to motorcycle racing schools, set pretty good lap times on bikes if I do say so myself. I was being cocky by turning off traction control, no doubt. The real reason for the spin was less cockiness and more not paying good enough attention to what I was doing.

Again, my fault. Feel better now? Now I've got to get back and start throwing random aftermarket gear at my car to make me a better driver.

All we know is.... He's called The Stig

The internet can be a cruel place. I think you've got the right attitude. Keep your chin up and get out to an event. :)

Wow, thank you. I appreciate that.

All we know is.... He's called The Stig

I'm really not sure why you feel the need to call me out on this, but if you feel the need to have a tiff with someone go find someone who cares.

I'm not going to stop driving, and modding my car to make me faster, because you think I should adapt to the machine and not the other way around. I'm not racing, I'm not following a rule book, I'm enjoying myself. And to me, that means making the machine work better for my driving style and abilities. Not once have I said the engineers didn't do a good job. I've been very clear that I know my abilities are feeble and that I'm trying to make a great car work better FOR ME.

You don't get it eh? I am not negative with aftermarket parts. There are also excellent choises, although many times is really difficult to keep the good balance of the car. Fact is that we are not car designers or engineers, nor is the majority of racers or local garages. Very few people have a clear understanding of car dynamics and chassis development. Also keep in mind that if you install racing parts in your car, then the car will be even less forgiving. You'll have a more dangerous car that will be suitable mainly for racing and more dangerous to drive in public roads. My suggestion is to learn from your mistakes and try to improve first yourself as a driver. When you feel you hit the limits of the factory car, then start thinking about changes.

You can also replace the front top hats while you're at it to adjustable aftermarket ones. When you drive on tracks regularly, you feel a lot less inclined to drive fast on the streets and keep things well below the limit. So sign up for all the track days! :lol: