Anyone coming from more powerful cars to the BR-Z?
 

Just curious if anyone else here is coming from more powerful / higher horsepower cars to the BR-Z, and what your thoughts on the BR-Z are comparatively.

I too have been following the BR-Z / FR-S from the beginning. However, given my background...owning and daily driving a slightly modified 2000 Honda Civic EX for 10 years (through high school and college, modified before the fast and the furious craze). Before this my very first car was a 1988 Mazda RX-7, if you know anything about these engines, they arent exactly reliable...

http://i.imgur.com/rrQzQnh.jpg

Anyway, when it was finally time for me to get out of the Civic in the Summer of 2o12, I was ready for a high horsepower car with the classic sports car layout. I ended up buying a 2009 Pearl White Nissan 370Z, base model and was in love with the car. I didn't even drive anything else, the 200+ hp jump from the Civic alone was enough. I also thought the car handled very well at the time. I believe the 86's were due to arrive the next month, but I scoffed as I knew I had 100+ more horsepower, and what I believed to be a better handling more sophisticated sports car all around in the 370z.

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However, one afternoon on my way to lunch, just two months into ownership of the 370z, I was run off the road by an elderly gentlemen into oncoming traffic. I collided with a VW Passat head on at 50+ mph. Will edit and add pics this evening. That was the end of the 370Z. Of course I had made the payment on it just hours before...

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At this point, I was 28 years old, and had only lived in the state of Georgia my entire life. It was time for a change. My girlfriend and I, and our dogs moved out to Colorado. After living here for a year or so, I got the itch to buy again. I was looking for a 2o15 WRX base model, but they were not readily available yet. However, almost all dealers in my area had at least 1 2015 Launch Edition WRX STI available. I reasoned with myself that if I got the STI my payment would be higher, but I would be saving overall because at least I wouldnt "have" to modify it right away...

I test drove the Launch Edition, and despite my insistence on owning a rear drive, sexy sports car, the Launch Edition STI was now mine. Even though there were years in between drives, the STI made the 370z feel sloppy in every area. Maybe this isnt quite a fair comparison, and maybe the NISMO 370 would stack up better against the STI, but I still felt it shouldn't be possible. The layout of the Z alone, despite the AWD of the STI, should have made the Z a better handling car. This simply was not the case.

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I loved the STI, and it would have been a track monster stock if I had ever taken it out. It was also very fun to drive daily, and very capable in the snow. My only complaint at the time was that the car was very stiff, and not kind on my bad back. However, even with the nice factory gold STI wheels, and exclusive blue interior of the Launch edition, and knowing the car was 1/1000, I never once got the same feeling looking at the car that I did with the 370Z. Because of this, the fact that I was now trying to buy a house, and the fact that the STI with insurance was costing me very close to $1000 monthly, I decided to sell the car after putting just over 15k miles on it. This was a very sad day.

Fast forward another year, and i still haven't been able to find a house that I like enough to buy. I've also now finished recovering from 3 spine surgeries, and my back is feeling much better. Apparently I had a broken piece of bone just chilling in my back since the accident in the Z. Anyway, with my back feeling better, and now once again being tired of only driving my girlfriends 2013 Altima when she wasnt using it, I was ready to buy a car again.

I finally convinced myself that I needed to at least drive a BR-Z. I have always loved the way they look, but have never been impressed with 200hp on paper. After the first test drive, I wasnt entirely convinced that I wanted the car. I loved the handling, the inputs, and the overall connection I felt to the road, but the car really felt slow. I expected this being that my last car was the STI. I decided to wait on the purchase, for once. Side note, I later relized that the a/c was on during my entire test drive.

I started calling around and realized I could easily get a limited model brz in my area for the price of the base or premium model. Each dealer only had 1 BRZ, so they were willing to deal. I finally settled on Valley Subaru because they added an additional year / 40k miles to the powertrain warranty, so 6 year / 100k mile powertrain. When my girlfriend got home from work, we made the drive to Valley Subaru...

On the way I started questioning myself, are you really going up here to potentially buy a car you have been shitting on in your head for the last 3 years? By the time we arrived, I convinced myself that I needed to drive a base model WRX as well, since these cars are basically the same price, pending options. I drove the WRX first. The car accelerated fairly quickly stock, but I was mainly interested in the tunability of this car, since the turbo was already there. Body roll was noticeable, but the car still handled very well, and would obviously be much more capable in the snow.

I then got in the BRZ and took the same route I had just taken the WRX. I made sure the a/c was off this time. The stiffer suspension / lower center of gravity in the BRZ was immediately noticeable. This is the feel I was looking for. What wasnt noticeable to the "seat of the pants dyno" was the 70 or so horsepower I knew I was missing compared to the WRX I had just driven. I decided then that I liked the BRZ better than the WRX, and there is now a 2o16 WRB BRZ Limited in my garage. I may be kicking myself when the 2o17's roll out, I read September, but couldnt get any info on arrivals from local dealers, and I couldn't wait. I am now paying 1/2 of what I was paying monthly for the payment and insurance on the STI, but I certainly do not feel that I have 1/2 the car. I can honestly say that I love the BR-Z more than the 2015 Launch Edition STI and the 2009 370z.

Never again will I let a # on paper be the sole basis for judging a car...

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My last car was a Genesis coupe 2.0t that was modded. It was putting out near 300 hp and about 320 tq at 3280 lbs. It handled pretty well (very fun because it was tail happy), but the brakes were terrible and the TC/SC/ABS were all atrocious. Modding that car was REALLY EASY and because it was a turbo, there were a lot of tuning options.

Sometimes I miss the power because on the highway I'd mash the gas and there would be no problem getting by. If someone wanted to race, that car could take most challengers. People saw 2.0 liter and figured it was slow. It was a fast car, but not a very good car overall.

The lower CG, stiffer suspension, terrific TCS/ABS, awesome LSD, less caster angle, reduced weight and everything else come together to make the FRS the better package. But the slow thing kind of sucks, but no turbo until it's paid off. With a turbo this will be an amazing package. I think 50 HP and 70 tq would transform this car.

The FRS handling with Gencoupe power:weight would be a dream car.

Good opinion on why the BRZ worked for you. I agree that these cars drive and feel much different than most cars available, even with less straight line performance, these can be very enjoyable.
Check out Everyday Driver TV on YouTube. They have a long term FRS that one of the guys drives daily in UT.

but that car kind of exists! the only problem is if you want that it can't really come in at $30k anymore.

http://p.images.boldride.com/porsche....24.748178.jpg

Thanks, I'll check it out. I know I'm late to the scene, trying to catch up. Seems like most have been around the forums since 2o13.


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Was the 370z really that bad? I have been contemplating getting a used one and boosting it.

We all know Subaru could build this car for 35-40k. Not the Porsche obviously, but they could easily build the turbo we all seem to crave. Incorporate the turbo in exhaust towards the rear of the car to have room for / not upset the engine balance. I'm not an engineer obviously, but I they could make it work if they wanted to. I would have without a doubt purchased it over the WRX STI at the time if it were available. And no loss to Subaru because I'm still buying a Subaru...

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I had a heavily modded 02 wrx putting down 320 320. Even with a full sti drive line and aftermarket springs and struts as well as other suspension components it could not even compete with the brz in terms of handling. Eventually I plan to boost my brz after Ive done as much as I can with parts to bump up the power NA. Plan to get ACE headers next and a new tune run that for a year before making the final decision if Im going to Supercharge it or not.

I highly disagree with that statement. There is no way they could market that kind of car for that price point. Bump that price up at least 5-10k and you are more in the ball park.

Maybe for the aftermarket but it's not that simple for the OEM.

http://www.spannerhead.com/wp-conten...4_Turbo_Ad.jpg

35 to 40k I doubt it. Most people forget that Japan has been broke ass for at least 20 years. Didn't you read the Reuters article on illegal foreign migrants earning minimum wage in the Japanese auto parts industry. This is no longer the booming 1980's unfortunately.

I'm very glad the twins actually even happened.

The 370z was a great car, don't get me wrong I wasn't meaning to bash on it. However, there were a few things I really didn't like about it. Mainly, the engine.

I know this is a V6 and isn't supposed to be as rev-happy, but the engine really felt wheezy towards the top end of the rpm band, and I mean well before redline. Don't get me wrong, the car was fast, but when you are driving it hard it feels like the engine is fighting you, like it isnt comfortable doing what its doing if that makes sense. The engine starts vibrating, and you can feel this in the steering wheel and shifter. The best comparison I can give is driving my dads 1998 4 cylinder, manual transmission Ranger. This was a manual trans truck, no tach included from factory on the dash. You literally shift when it sounds / feels like you are supposed to. Low rpms are fine, the engine feels very nice and torquey in the Z, but the last quarter of the rpm band feels too much like that ranger 4 cylinder vibrating that you are guessing at how high the rpms are...

Secondly, and I did test drive another 2009 370 base model while I owned the STI to confirm...and maybe the later models of the 370 have improved...

There is a lot more play than you would expect in the steering wheel. It is not as direct as the STI or BRZ. I'd give it 3rd out of all the cars I have owned. Compared to the other 2, it really does feel sloppy.

Same with the shifter in the 370z, it feels very loose or artificial compared to the 2 Subarus. I will even say that both of my Subarus have had the same issue with shifting into second and third gear when cold from new. However, the shifter in either if them still felt more direct and tight, which made me feel more connected to the car.

Lastly, I was never a fan of the interior of the 370z.

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I currently have a 2006 Pontiac GTO and a 2001 Subaru Outback. I test drove a BRZ while my Outback was in for a major maintenance, and fell in love with how it drives. I don't care that my GTO is three to four seconds faster down the dragstrip. Outside of the local track/strip, I don't go any faster than 70 MPH, and I don't street race... so there really isn't a point to having all that power other than the few times I have some fun at the track. Sure, getting on the highway is cool, but that's only like less than five seconds of fun. I'd rather enjoy normal driving and not have twisty roads be a chore.*

The Engineering Explained guy explained it best in his video explaining why he's selling his STI. Once you get past the ego and desire to have bragging rights on power, you'll come to realize that a lightweight car that is fun to drive is better to have. Why have fun less than 5% of the time in a way that may get you in trouble with the law, when you can have fun 80% of the time safely without getting into trouble?

The only car I've driven that comes close to the BRZ in enjoyment is the MX-5. Thing is, I hate Mazda's current weird alien spaceship designs. I like how the new Fiat that's based on the MX-5 looks, but I hate soft-tops. I joined this forum, because I'm a huge fan of the BRZ and hope to get one.

(*I also used to have a gutted Saturn SC2 as an autocross track car, and that thing was crazy fun. Autocross is so much funner than drag racing. I didn't want to get too long winded with my personal experience, since this post is already four paragraphs long including this one.)

There's something esoteric about the twins. The hp lack is a barrier to some. But, for many of those that 'get it', this car is primarily about daily driving fun. That it can be modded, tracked, etcetera, is one fuckava bonus.

Last coupla decades, 0 - 60's were falling with every subsequent vehicle I planted under me. The BRZ broke that mold - it's slower (in a straight line) than many of my past rides, and I've never been more thrilled - this one makes you work for your pace {sic} in line.

I studied this car for a number of years, hoping for a factory turbo that was not to be. I pulled the trigger a few months ago, and my higher hp rides have faded into oblivion with every paddle tap that barks my Borla.

Clearly, you 'get it'.

Congrats.

You are right. My numbers were a bit skewed because I was using 25k as the price point for the BRZ now, since thats what I got my limited for. technically it is closer to 30k msrp. So adding 10 to 15k would put it around 40-45k. I would still buy this over a WRX STI.

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My previous car was a 2013 STi. I had bought it brand new because it was my dream car from my teenage years and man did it bring me a lot of joy. I started getting a lot of seat time at the track with the STi - primarily at Englishtown Raceway Park, NJMP, and Watkins Glen. I did a bunch of DE events with PCA, and the STi was an extremely capable car having no problem keeping up with the 911s in my groups. Spent a lot of time and money to get the car set up exactly how I wanted it with top quality mods and man that thing was a rocket. The winter months were insanely fun; it was incredible what you can get away with by having a proper set of winter tires. After getting more serious about track time, I've been feeling that the car is just too porky and I really wanted to get into a light-weight RWD platform.

I had test driven the BRZ about 3 years ago when I first got my STi but it didn't really call to me at all. After test driving the BRZ again, I took a more spirited approach to the test drive. I swear I was sold instantly. The first track day I did with the BRZ was at Watkins Glen with nothing other than upgraded brake fluid & pads and I couldn't stop smiling. The BRZ out of the box is so incredibly sorted, I couldn't believe it. Even the street manners are so much better than the STi.

Long story short - the BRZ is slow as a slug in a straight line compared to the STi, but driving dynamics and the way the car moves around around a corner has me with an ear to ear grin every time. 1000% no regrets. I've had people say "you gave up your STi for that!?" Like OP said, once you drive a twin the way it's meant to be driven, everything about the car makes sense. I don't think there's a single *new* car out there in the market that comes close to what the twins give you for the money.

Exactly, I never raced anyone on the street in my STI or 370z. Most likely due to the fact that I was close to 30 years old before owning either of these cars.

I really wanted a high hp car because of the many years of driving slower cars than all of my friends when I was young.

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I came from a 2002 Subaru WRX STI with 300hp
And a 2007 BMW 335i with also 300Hp.

I was enjoying the 300Hp club, however the BMW felt way too heavy for my taste. Also very unreliable.

I used to always think the 86/BRZ were slow but once I test drive them I fell in love instantly. One of my favorite cars today and always want to find reasons to drive it!

Another nice thing is the NA motor. After forced induction, NA is just more fun for me and every little part makes such a difference :)
I also love the simplicity of these cars.

Now I'm a 200Hp club fan. I'm planning on picking up a 4 door Civic SI also for a family car in the future.

My past 4 "fun" cars have been a 2009 STI, 2009 Boxster S, 2005 350z AE, and 2013 FR-S. All had 300+ hp other than the FR-S. If I had to rank them:

1) The Boxster S was my favorite - roughly the size/weight of the FR-S but with 310 hp. Wasn't a huge fan of how the car looked, but everything else was pretty damn amazing. Might buy another 987.2S one day, it was that good.

2) The FR-S is a close 2nd, lots of smiles and fun times with it. Surprises folks in faster cars at the track. Still enjoying it and no matter what else I buy in the future, I'll probably always keep it as my track car, especially having finished a set of track mods on it.

3) The STI hatch would probably rank 3rd. Loved the blend of utility and power, but the handling and feedback were a letdown. Interestingly a lot of friends/family (non-car folks who rode as passengers) liked this one the best. Maybe it was the alcantara/leather seating and roomy interior.

4) I'd place the 350z 4th. I liked this car, but it never blew me away in any category. It wasn't light enough to make you feel connected to it like the Boxster S or FR-S, but also not practical enough to justify its extra weight compared to the STI hatch (AWD, rear seats and a hatch). Sort of the worst of both worlds - heavy and impractical.

I can't say any of them have been bad. There are certainly times I miss having 300+ hp, but the FR-S has earned its spot in my garage. :)

A BRZ is very close to the power-to-weight ratio of a WRX. There are still differences in torque curves and real life drive situations, but if you high rev a BRZ you won't miss a lot. It also depends where you are living. Only issue, is on high altitude where the NA engine stays pretty much breathless. Did you have a chance to drive to Colorado Springs?

WRX STI for me is another story. If the BRZ is a fun car, then the STI is the weapon car. Those that had this car and still saying that BRZ is better, they never realized or explored the full potential of the STI or they never needed such a car. Different drivers, different needs ...

I had a 2013 BRZ when they first came out. Had it for a year and then traded it in cause I wanted to get the WRX. I managed to get 3k worth of equity back. I ended up with '13 WRX hatch for my wife and a '15 STi for myself. In the end, I missed the BRZ very much. I learned the hard way that all this talk of HP could never trump the amount of fun I had with my BRZ. The STi was as good as it gets for me. It just wasn't going to be my long term car. I always said had the STi shed some weight, became a coupe, and changed the looks on the tail then I'd be perfectly happy and content.

So here I am now, about to return to the BRZ. I've missed some minor updates since I've sold my old BRZ, plus I'm going to benefit from getting the refresh due to all the updates it's getting. So aesthetically speaking this car checks all the boxes for me that I want right from factory. It looks pretty close to the STi concept from the auto show awhile back. That's all I could ask for. I know how the car drives already and now I can jump back to a car that's light and pretty nimble. Power means nothing to me at this point, give me looks and a fun car and I'm set.

Let's see...

"...more powerful cars to the BR-Z?"


Does our old Ford Mini-Van count? HA!

Ha, yeah there are plenty out there huh...I guess I should have specified...all of the aforementioned cars have been my daily driver / only car. I do not have kids, or have the need for a family car. I work from home so it could be argued whether or not I even need a car at all.

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Lol i've had a modded r35 gtr and now the 458 along side my FRS. Like others have said once you get past the whole ego thing the FRS is great. I do think everyone should have at least one 'fast' car in their life, something in the 10 second range 1/4 mile... just to get it out of your system. I did that and realized that I could care less about holding the wheel straight and pressing a pedal to beat someone by a few lengths. If thats what you need to feel good about yourself you have some issues. Power gets old after a while... a stock GTR is ridiculously fast.. yet you see soooo many modded ones because people just want more and more.

Miss the torque from my old v6... But that's about it.
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Thanks I appreciate your feedback. The 15 and up wrx shifter is terrible stock (have no idea on the STI), but I do love the one in the twins!

As for the engine that's interesting to0, I used to have a 350z and can't remember if it had that issue or not but I'd imagine it did. I did like the seating position and shifter in the 350z though.

This video really made me want to get back into a z though ha ha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0U1...ature=youtu.be

I have not yet made the drive to Colorado Springs I've only got about 400 miles on it, so I haven't even really driven it yet.

I agree with you, I never came close to realizing the full potential of the WRX STI. I never drove the car anywhere but on the road, never on a track, and I rarely drove it hard.

I realize that the many of the things I love about the BRZ are the exact same things I loved about the STI, mainly how direct and precise the steering inputs are. Simply surgical in both cars. Every movement of the hand translates into a movement of the car. I like the feel of the BRZ slightly better, just because the wheel is smaller.

I remember the STI felt more firmly planted at high speeds around corners, with very little if any body roll or twist. The 2015 STI suspension is amazing. AWD probably has adds to the more planted feel, as well as the STI coming with bigger wheels and tires from the factory. You can feel a bit more of a twist of the car in the BRZ at high speeds around corners, due to back end wanting to slide out, less rubber, RWD, whatever. To me, this provides a bit more fun feeling on the daily drive.

Its like you said, it's what you are looking for in a car. I've always wanted a rear drive, good looking coupe. Even after owning the STI fir a year, the BRZ has been enough for me so far, at below 4k rpms.



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Ha I dont blame you there. Thats a quick 370Z!

I would suggest driving the Z back to back with whatever other car you are contemplating buying / trading if possible. As obvious as it seems, this helped me the most in my decision.

I came from a 2007 BMW 335i with the whole intake/exhaust tract modified except the turbos themselves. 245F/265R tires, M3 control arms, full Coilovers, upgraded brakes, stiffer engine/tranny mounts, the works. ~425 WHP, 450WTQ, tons of grip and balanced handling. Or so I thought.
I love that car still, and miss it. It was amazing and perfect to me.

Got a Saab 9-3 for baby needs, but that wasn't cutting it for me and I soon went on the search for more.

I drove an FR-S on a damp Saturday morning and by the first turn I was in love, as the salesman was grabbing for the ohshit-handle. The engine doesn't have any torque from 3-5k, but that is okay because between 5-7k it buzzes around like the angriest little bee that just wants to rev and rev and rev. Some places the car feels thin in the metal and a little cheap, but that is okay because it's legitimately light. The interior is spartan when compared to my previous BMWs, but that is okay because the seating position and driver controls are brilliant.

I fell in love, started researching the twins more (i remembered them from the concepts in 2010) and decided on setting my sights on a BRZ limited for under 20K. My modded 335i was so much fun, but only when you could use the power, which was almost never. Cars aren't much fun when driven at 25% speed. The BRZ is fun 95% of the time, because you can push it whenever.
If the twins didn't exist, I would still be commuting in my Saab 9-3 and taking the wife's 335i (which we still have) out for a spin when I need an automotive adrenaline shot. Now I'm on an IV.

This

And this, also used the value is even better. I got one of the best sports cars money can buy, fully loaded for 18K :burnrubber:

That's what I love about the FA20. Everybody always says the FR-S is only fun on mountain roads. I don't live anywhere near mountain roads. I have fun just driving it to work everyday. I love revving it out to RPMs that most other engines can't touch. And when you do rev it out it's actually pretty peppy.

Exactly! And when you wind it out the engine sounds straight out of Initial-D!

-Josh

It's still kind of weird to run the revs up to 6000 and it's not a big deal. Still 1400 to go! I love revving the engine too just tooling around having fun around town. I really wish there was a mountain near me

welcome, my previous car was a 04 wrx and G35 6MT coupe. I have most of fun in the BRZ. It is true, it is funner to drive a slow car fast than drive a fast car slow. Even driving my BRZ to a supermarket i can feel the thrill lol.

Before the BRZ, I drove a 2013 328i with the premium package. Had 260 hp and 210 torque so it was noticeably faster than the BRZ. Probably the only thing I miss from that car was the ability to mash the gas pedal and take off. BMW inline 6's are just wonderful things to behold.

That being said, I got the same "fighting" feeling that you got from your 370z. When I revved high the car felt very uncomfortable and wouldn't shift right. Essentially, the engine wanted to go, but it was being held back by the small stock air intake and two, that's right, TWO big mufflers. Even at redline I could barely hear anything. It annoyed me so much that I could barely enjoy driving it. With the BRZ, I feel like it just wants to do whatever I tell it to. Whether I want to rev, downshift early, go around a corner outrageously fast, whatever, it says "ok! Let's go!". True, the lack of power is embarrassingly obvious at times, but you learn to get over it, and it's relatively easy to fix.

It's also very fun having such a wide and accessible tuner market, as this car is easy to mod. BMW's get all hissy when you try to do anything to them, and usually you have to go to a professional, but the BRZ is just so open to change.

Last car was an STU-prepped 350Z.
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A friend of mine totalled it at ZdayZ in May. I get to drive a lot of cars at the track so I had a nice "short list" of cars when I started shopping. The FRS is classed well in CS, so I went with that.

I have a very similar experience as the OP.

- Started out with a 95' Honda Civic VX model back in high school and college. Manual transmission, 95HP model that was purely built for fuel economy. Most people don't even know about it but it got right at 50MPG on trips, even had a shift light to tell ya' when it was best to shift for fuel economy.

- In college, I landed a nice internship out in Mississippi. I saved as much as I could to finally get a 'real' performance vehicle. I had my sights set on the S2000, 350Z, E36 M3, and a Mazda Miata. I test drove the S, Miata, and the 350Z. Ultimately, I got the 350Z. It was a fun first RWD car that I honed my skills on and got lucky a few times when it ended up in the ditch. Learned to autocross and run the North GA mountains with it. I always liked the looks of the car, but the transmission was rough and as the OP mentioned, the engine sounded horrible above 5K RPM. My gosh, it sounded like a grenade preparing to detonate at redline. What a rough motor.

- Fast forward to 2012, I was planning on trading it in for an S2000 when my brother told me I might be interested in the FT86 platform. I put a $500 deposit on a WRB BRZ at a dealership in North GA. They informed me it would be a 6 month wait time in which case I said no thanks and waited another month or so. I then purchased the first BRZ that was sold on this forum as 'used'. The seller had 800 miles on it and claimed that his kids simply didn't like the back seat. Fast forward to today and 36,000 miles later, it's been a great ride these past few years. This car has seen Road Atlanta, Atlanta Motorsports Park, Carolina Motorsports Park, Tail of the Dragon, autocrosses, you name it. It's my daily and even carries around my 55" RC airplane.

This is the least powerful car I've ever owned by a long shot, only 4 cylinder, still a ton of fun.

Came from a string of boosted Mustangs, all of them over 400whp and my last Roush put down 570whp. Driving experience is night and day, though I quickly missed the power.

This is my daily work beater, but the 93 model. Try driving this car and twins back-to-back... then they feel like a rocket ship!

I've had three LS1 cars and a 04 Mustang GT.


I miss the power, or rather, I miss the torque.