A conversation with a Toyota service manager about modding and warranties
 

Today my car got its first oil change. It's one of the free oil changes, I chose to do it at 3000 miles even though the maintenance book says to do it at 7500 miles. They did the entire service, they didn't balk at all about the mileage and said I can do the free services whenever I want, they don't care about the intervals. $0.00 no problems at all.

Then I wanted to gauge how the dealership feels about warranties and modding a car. That's why I put this is thread in the Warranties section. I spoke to a very cool and helpful service mgr who seemed pretty knowledgeable and no BS and this guy mods his own car- it's a Mustang, not a Toyota though. I asked specifically about the powertrain warranty. Toyota covers the initial 60,000 mile warranty for our cars; I have an extended warranty up to 80,000 miles and this dealership has a "lifetime warranty" on the powertrain, both are covered by a 3rd party insurance co.

The service mgr said that Toyota is pretty lenient about warranties even if the car has been modified with aftermarket parts. The guy told me to just reinstall the OEM parts and bring the car in if there's a problem. He said TRD parts are not a prob at all they are treated like OEM parts (I was like well, duh- but I figured I'd mention anyway). He even said I could call him and he'd tell me which parts to reinstall for the issue I have. Yeah, he was really cool about HARDWARE mods. He said even if I wanted to do something like gut the OEM header, no problem, just keep the orig header so I can put it back on just in case- it's what he does with his own car. Intake, full exhaust, full suspension, wheels whatever- do anything and everything just keep the OEM parts.

He was honest about the extended lifetime powertrain warranty. The insurance co will be a "real pain in the ass" (his quote) and will try to deny warranty work on the powertrain for any mod you do. He said they try to deny coverage on the engine if you even put aftermarket wheels on... Again, his words. Toyota is not the prob from what he says, it's the insurance co that tries to bone you.

Hardware is one thing, tuning is another. He said that if Toyota sees that you have tuned your car, reflashed or messed with the ECM at all- your powertrain warranty coverage will be denied. Period. He also said that there's a flash counter in the ECM and they can tell pretty easily if the ECM has been flashed. He also said screw it, just do it, it's YOUR CAR do whatever you want. He didn't say anything about flagging cars or noting what mods are done. If you need warranty work, Toyota sends a rep down to look at your car and that person decides on whether you are in warranty or not. So reinstall the OEM mods before that guy looks at your car. But he says you can't hide ECM reflashing and they look for that first.

TL;DR Do whatever you want to the hardware and keep OEM equip to reinstall if you have a warranty issue down the line. Don't touch the ECM if you want to keep the warranty intact.

And that's just a blanket statement that can be picked apart.

If you reflash the ECU you still have the warranty.

Example:

I reflash ECU. MAF sensor goes haywire. I have a claim.
I reflash ECU. Cam sensor goes haywire. I have a claim.

Just because you have the ECU flashed doesn't mean you lose ALL your coverage on the powertrain.

I'm just relaying what he said. But there again, those sensors aren't part of the powertrain and I didn't ask specifically about ancillary engine components.

So he's recommending that you commit fraud? Reinstalling OEM parts and pretending they were always there for the purpose of convincing Toyota to pay for warranty work is fraud.

Actually it is.

Powertrain is all things engine and transmission related, up to (and including) rear axles, rear wheel bearings, ECU, engine electronics, etc.

And he'd help by letting you know what to reinstall. Maybe his boss would say something different but I'm calling the service mgr i dpoke eith for advice if anything bad happens.

I'm not going to get an OFT or Ecutek tune until my car's paid for. I'm going to get the Unichip and a catless header based on this conversation.

Never ending story about Modding with Warranty..
i heard same shit 10 years ago
i heard exact same shit 5 years ago.
Guess what now?
It hasnt changed

If you have to ask the service tech about the warranty and modding you shouldn't mod your car. You pay to play, and if something fails related to the mods don't go crying back to the dealership

Nope! Please note that itemized list does NOT mention sensors, or any other I/O devices associated with engine management. "Powertrain" refers to the system of mechanical components

Are there even Unichip tunes for catless headers? On this platform, Unichip has been kind of pointless.

I've read that it can utilize catless headers- there are lots of custom "tunes" you can download- I still have a lot more research to do on it though. But it can't turn off the P0420 from what I understand so I'd have to use an O2 spacer. Unichip isn't as good as a remap, but it's easily uninstalled.

Even if you exclude the harness and sensors, any blanket denial of warranty claim just because the ECU is flashed can still be picked apart.

I don't care how much of a d-bag a car owner can be, there's still no grounds for blanket denial of coverage just because one item is modified. That's just dealers and corporate reps taking advantage of misinformed end users.

Plus, this info coming from a dealership advocating fraud is just funny. At the end of the day the dealer just cares about their money and nothing else.

-alex

Depends on dealer...SOME will try to deny you even for exhaust while others will be more welcoming and provide more lenient customer service.

Unichip is a joke and daemano knows it :lol:

A OFT tune is just as easy if not easier to uninstall, and leaves no footprint as does flashing back to stock on an ecutek tune. If you as you say are putting your oem parts back on for warranty work this shouldn't be an issue.

Is it possible to just remove the ECU, put a used one in and flash that one and then if the situation arrives there, put the original unflashed one back in?

yes if you want to go to that much trouble.

They might be talking BS about the flash counter, i cannot find it in techstream software toyota uses.

ecu replacement see here

Replacing a Bricked ECU with new or used ECU (engine control Module)
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102810


.

Here in Honolulu, Hawaii the dealership Servco Hawaii owns TOYOTA period. They have their own agreement with TOYOTA of Japan. It's like their own entity from TOYOTA Japan. Servco Hawaii is not part of TOYOTA USA.

The Servco Hawaii service center I go to the service rep told me about the Mossman warranty thingy. He said they would have to prove the aftermarket part caused issues/failures with the car. When I was interested in TRD exhaust he said, "$1300.00 for TRD exhaust is a waste because you can buy a better after market one!" He told me I wouldn't violate my new car warranty and extended warranty with a aftermarket exhaust. As long as the stock header is not switched out the warranties would be fine. ;)

yep! I love mine but understand the exhaust is not the best. Still braggin' rights haha

I asked specifically about the header and the service mgr said it's not a problem. Of course, he also said if there's a warranty issue that the stock header can be switched out pretty easily....

Them asking you to reinstall all OEM parts is not fraud (especially considering it is a Toyota EMPLOYEE telling you to do it) they need to have the car in OEM condition for their diagnostics to work.
Even if they know that you had aftermarket parts on the car they need it back in original condition to diagnose it properly.


Yes the sensors that control the engine ARE covered under the powertrain warranty. If it makes it go, it is powertrain. The ECU is covered, therefore the sensors that feed the ECU are covered. I believe there is an exception for O2 sensors in the extended warranty, but not sure (they are certain to wear out before 100,000 and depends on the quality of your gasoline)

Yes it is. The Toyota dealer and Toyota USA are two separate entities. Warranty repairs are paid for by Toyota USA on the dealer's recommendation. So the dealer is saying they'll conceal the potentially warranty-voiding mods and misrepresent the issue in order to get money out of Toyota USA. Which is the textbook legal definition of fraud.

My first motor expired at 20k. Rocker arm. Dealer saw perrin crank pulley and told me to bring stock pulley in. For some reason Toyota instructed mechanic to inspect main bearings. New shortblock was the result. That lasted 500 miles. Cam gear issues. Finally got a complete motor, ecu, all new plumbing etc.No problems since. Im rather grateful. It could've been worse.

Except I saw a Toyota tech post on this forum that they require the system to be returned to OEM for diagnostics. If they are concealing that fact from Toyota corporate, then it is NOT fraud on the part of the consumer, but on the part of the DEALER.


Its the same as a Police officer telling you to make a U-turn when no U-turn is allowed. Did you break the law or not?

It's still fraud that you are helping commit. And yes, it is still breaking the law, because it's not allowed there. Just because the police officer says he won't ticket you for it doesn't make it legal. I can't decide if you're living up to your name or if you genuinely can't grasp this principle.

I believe YOU are wrong.

If the authority (the Dealer tech representative) tells you:
"Put your stock parts back on and bring it in"

If you follow his instruction you are NOT committing fraud.
You are following instructions.
You have NO IDEA what he intends to do with corporate.

Using your logic, if I make a bank deposit, and the teller steals that money and buys illegal drugs, I assisted with the law breaking? NOT

Your example makes no sense and doesn't relate at all. And when the dealer says "put the OEM part back on so we can get it warrantied," you know exactly what they're doing. Sure, it's the dealer committing fraud against the corporate office, but you are knowingly assisting in that by swapping the parts for the purpose of getting a repair covered under warranty. It's very apparent that I'm speaking in a vacuum though, so you keep believing whatever you choose to believe. I'm tired of explaining why you're wrong.

I will try to keep this simple enough for you to understand:


If the dealer says:
"Put your OEM parts back on and bring the car in so I can run standard Toyota diagnostics on your problem"
(Which I have personally SEEN a tech tell a customer)
You are NOT committing fraud. Period.
If the dealer says:
"Put your OEM parts back on and bring the car in and I wont tell corporate, wink wink, nudge nudge"
You are assisting in the dealer committing fraud.


"Your example makes no sense and doesn't relate at all."


And the example definitely DID relate.
If I give someone cash for one thing and they use it for another (illegal) thing, did I help commit the crime or not? NO
Because they did not use the cash for what it was intended for.
SAME with the car example. If I put the parts back on to assist with the diagnostics (what I was told) and the DEALER uses it for something else (say to pass an inspection from corporate) then my actions are NOT assisting in fraud.

Seriously guys? Fraud? Toyota manufactures the car, and the dealer sells and maintains it thereafter. If a dealer is telling you to put oem parts on/reflash and bring it in so they can work on it, why are you complaining? If you feel guilty about "lying" to a corporation, you've got bigger problems.

Here is an example of another customer being told by the dealer to remove the non-OEM parts before bringing the car in.

I guess ALL the dealers just commit fraud all the time:

That was a DEALER SERVICE dept. telling a customer to remove the aftermarket parts before they would try to diagnose a problem.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...=109186&page=3