Track Data Logs!
 

Post your track logs here! I haven't seen any threads for discussing track-specific logs so I thought I'd start one.

@solidONE @DocWalt we had previously gone through some track logs but everyone should feel welcome to post up their logs here.



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Here's one of my track logs from a week ago. Tune was OFT stage 2 v2.076 (tweaked for track and slightly leaned out on the top end).

http://datazap.me/u/darksunrise/2076...=0&data=1-4-11

Ambient temps were ~85 F, low humidity.

Oil temps were good (239 F max) and coolant temps were good (203 F max). I'm generally happy with the FLKC, but will add a small amount of coolant timing compensation to help.

One thing that concerns me is the repeated instance of -3.5 to -5 KC at ~6000 RPM. It happens at the same spot everytime, just as I'm transitioning from full throttle (1.00+ g/rev) to part throttle (0.5-0.6 g/rev) entering a turn. Any suggestions? Since it's only happening under specific circumstances at part throttle loads, should I bother tuning this out by taking out timing at those loads/RPM's? Seems like a massive amount of timing to carve out of the timing map.

http://datazap.me/u/darksunrise/2076...zoom=2200-2605
http://datazap.me/u/darksunrise/2076...zoom=4057-4519
http://datazap.me/u/darksunrise/2076...zoom=7902-8023
http://datazap.me/u/darksunrise/2076...oom=9773-10620

You didnt have the throttle parameter logged, but the FBKC looks to happen right as you lift off or reduce the throttle. You can try to alleviate that KC you are seeing by increasing the transient ignition retard. Although I'm not so sure it would work for reduced throttle as I think it may only be activated during rising loads and not reducing loads. I'm really not sure. I've messed with the transient tables a bit, but there doesnt seem to be much talk about those tables on this forum. Perhaps there might be some info on the romraider forums.

http://datazap.me/u/darksunrise/2076...zoom=7950-8027

Other than that your logs looks pretty knock correction free considering.

Thanks - so it's better to try to tackle that FBKC through transient ignition retard rather than pulling base timing from those RPMS/loads?

I'm really unsure whether if the transient retard tables will pull timing while reducing loads/throttle. You can definitely try. Another thing you can test before making any changes is to run the engine at the loads and rpm where you are seeing the knock correction just to confirm that it only occurs during transient throttle and not steady loads/throttle.

What I'd do is go to your "test road" and with the OFT displaying engine loads, try to run the engine and hold it at the loads you are seeing the knock correction (.60~.70 g/rev or so?) and log the result while under steady loads throughout the rev range to see where and if you are getting any knock correction. If you dont see any knock correction then you will have narrowed it down to just reducing transient throttle where the KC happens. If you do see knock correction, you can try taking a bit out of the base ignition advance table.

Perhaps the KC isn't even due to real knock. :iono: it's really hard to say. You may be fine just letting the computer do it's thing.

Good ideas - I'll try those out. Will also look around to see what conditions the transient retard kicks in (i.e., on less than full lift).

for that knock that happens as you get OFF throttle there is a specific set of tables called "Transient Ignition Retard" you would be best to adjust those, hopefully they are defined for your rom.




http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50088

OK thanks Steve! I'm planning to take additional timing out of the Transient Ignition Retard table, specifically at 6000 RPM at loads of 0.50-0.70 g/rev. Based on the amount of FBKC I'm seeing there (-3.5 to -5), should I just take an additional 5 degrees out?

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...H/tables-2.jpg

yep id go an extra -5 in those areas your having issues, worst it do is dull the throttle response a little, but should stop that transient knock

Here's a couple of logs from last fall (ambient ~60F):
http://datazap.me/u/docwalt/10-24-15...data=1-6-11-12

http://datazap.me/u/docwalt/10-25-15...data=1-6-11-12

The logs I have from this year don't have knock correction info, or coolant temp (both oversights on my part). That said, I'm not at all concerned about knock with a mix of 93/104 octane gas in the tank on a 91 tune, lol. Coolant temps haven't even remotely been an issue yet, so I didn't log that. Logged IAT though, which isn't nearly as important, haha.

Here's the log from Putnam a few weeks ago (ambient ~90F):
http://datazap.me/u/docwalt/06-25-16...&data=16-18-19

Nice. If you happen to do any logs recording knock on a hot track day this year, I'd be curious to see those to see what kind of a difference the 91 tune makes.

Don't know if I'll get back out when it's hot, but if I do I'll post it up. Next track day scheduled is in November at VIR... Hoping to do NJMP and October Shenandoah too, but we'll see how things pan out.

Haven't read the linked thread, but you can confirm that the Transient retard tables work for both throttle tip-in and throttle lift as well?

my understanding is that the transient retard table activates on rapid throttle movements. So this should be on both throttle on and off. What the actual rate of change or delta in throttle movement required to trigger the table I do not know other than what is in the table descriptions for the Transient retard table and associated tables in romraider

I believe there's is a table that works in conjunction with it that control how much throttle% change in throttle for the retard to kick in. I would assume it only kicks in with rapid throttle change. What the computer considers "rapid change" is another story I guess.

Edit: Must have remember wrong about the Throttle percentage change to activate transient retard. It's actually for tip-in fuel enrichment. Though there is the "transient ignition retard temp compensation" table that adjusts to IAT's, so with that table you can increase the amount of transient retard in higher temps to deal with heat related transient knock corrections.

Not quite a track log, but here is one going up the canyons today. Log started after a decent pace run up and down the canyons so oil and coolant temp should be up there. I'll have to remember to change the parameters next time. It looks like I'm getting pretty consistent transient throttle flkc. Not a huge amount but consistent FLKC at throttle tip in and each time I close the throttle suddenly. Did not have the KC logged either. I may look into doing some more adjustments on the transient ignition retard tables as well after I get some more logging done with the relevant parameters. Will also check my exhaust hardware just to be sure I'm not getting this flkc from exhaust vibrations.

http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z6-kc1h...og=0&data=1-11

Just because it may happen at tip in doesn't necessarily mean it's due to tip in settings. More likely it's due to not enough closed loop fuel or plain old too much timing.

Also, you have to look at the very first occurrence of the knock to see what the problem is. All the repeats in that same rpm/load cell are noise.

Example (marked):
http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z6-kc1h...1711&mark=1576
Data:
- Constant load
- Constant rpm
- Closed loop
Cause:
- Too much timing
- Too lean closed loop

Here's one you would probably like to think is tip in:
http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z6-kc1h...mark=1576-7884
Data:
- 5700 rpm
- 0.75 load
- CL/OL transition
- 14.0 Commanded AFR
- -1.0 FLKC
Cause:
- Open loop, and possibly closed loop too lean. Open loop should probably be around 13 and closed around 14 then commanded would likely be more around 13.5 and that knock would be less.
- Or take some timing out of that area if you want it running around 14.0.
- Or reduce transition timers or whatever other people like to do.

You're at 14.0 COMMANDED AFR at 5700 rpm, then 0.2 seconds later at the same rpm and load you're at 13.0 which is what you actually want. Tip in enrichment is a work around when the real solution is to fix your commanded AFR by 5 to 10 points.
OR if you want to be at 14.0, just make open loop 14.0 in that column and take the timing out. Then it won't knock in both closed and open loop.

^ You're right 14.0 is too lean, I'll have to take a look at my fuel maps. but 14.35 commanded @ 0.7 at 5700 sounds too lean. I still want to log again with the oil and coolant temps as well, cause pulling base timing I'd want to do as last resort, since I'm pretty satisfied with it under less stressful circumstance. If I can get the computer to retard timing without touching the base ignition advance. Or if making it run richer under those conditions removes or reduces the flkc, even better.

Coolant temp never changes, and there's no logic based on oil temp. I only make people log oil temp to ensure I'm not looking at logs from straight after the car was started. That's it.

And driving through canyons is still nothing like driving on track.

You gotta stop treating that lumpy-ass timing table like it's inscribed in stone or something.

Here, this took 30min or so and has all the lumps taken out.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1stpjmbt5z...0A01G.zip?dl=0

I'm assuming you're talking about this lovely little lump?
http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z6-kc1h...5&mark=107-110

That WOT log was taken same day with AC on full blast BTW. I left that alone because of the location. At around 4000rpm is where the torque really builds on my setup. I want to maximize the effect at that rpm and try not to compromise if I don't have to. As far as high or extreme temp related knock corrections go, I want to try to get the computer to deal with it as much as possible so I dont sacrifice too much "normal temp" performance if at all possible. Got to preserve that faux v-tech feel lol.

Appreciate the input though. I will have a look at that file later when I get a chance.

No, I'm talking about the whole map as I've always done. WOT is about 5% of the whole map and the easiest to push/pull timing to.

I think I see what you are saying. On you base timing B map you have the ignition advance set up so that there is only one "peak" per row. Each row has only one highest point of advance (say @ 3600~4000rpm) where the timing build up to smoothly then reduced smoothly toward redline at the same engine load row, yes? On mine some of the rows has 2 humps, where it peaks (@ say 4000rpm), lessens a tad as the rev builds (maybe by -5* from 4000rpm), then increases a little bit ( by say 1.5*) toward redline.

I honestly don't see much of a problem with the "lump" as its does so relatively smoothly while coinciding with the cam timing I'm running. Although @ 0.5g/rev and below mine looks similar to how you have set up with it building up to a single peak smoothly then reduces smoothly toward redline. I'm curious to see how you have your current long-tube el header and any other long tube EL set up.

Edit: I will try evening out the lumps in the ignition advance tables at loads above 0.5g/rev when I get a chance and if making it run richer does not have a satisfactory effect of reducing knock corrections.

Before making any changes, I took a "investigative" log trying to hold the engine loads between engine loads of 0.6~0.8 g/rev through the rev range. (same areas where I was seeing knock corrections in the earlier canyon log)

http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z6-kc1h...6431-6986-6981

The log was take under slightly warmer conditions than normal, not quite up to the temps you'd see on track or canyons, just to gather some information. I was getting a lot more knock correction than I expected where I didn't before @ 0.6~0.8 loads. That might help explain the amount of knock corrections in the canyon log earlier. Fuel quality may or may not have something to say about it, though afrs seems to be the leanest where I'm seeing the most knock corrections so I will start there by making it run a little richer with changes to the OL and CL fuel tables. Also included some on/off throttle toward the top of the rev range to see how much transient knock corrections i'm getting there.

CL, CL/OL transition:
http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z6-kc1h...6431-6986-6981

Open Loop:
http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z6-kc1h...6431-6986-6981

Open loop:
http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z6-kc1h...5592-5581-5595

Transient:
http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z6-kc1h...5592-5581-5595

Edit: Minor changes in the OL fuel table and CL Fueling Target comp tables. A bit conservative, but hey... I'm a conservative person. :lol:

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...44149703_o.jpg

I'll be looking at not just knock corrections, but also if my LTFT in OL operation will remain as stable they have before the changes (+- 1% LTFT). Hopefully my gas milage does not get reduced. Also the MAF IAT compensation has some very minor tweaks. Should not change anything besides idle fuel trims stability.

Edit 2: Looks like my changes to the fuel tables did not make much of a difference. CL to OL fueling is still a pretty big jump at around 0.6 loads. My OL fuel map indicates 13.8 afr with a -0.19 CL fuel target compensation, yet the commanded goes from 14.8 in closed loop then jumps to 14.0 open loop. I'd assumed that with the CL fuel target comp set at -0.19 the commanded would have been 14.2 in closed loop. I guess I have some homework to do on the CL fueling and CL/OL transistions... Any advice on this @Kodename47 @Wayno?

http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z6-kc1i...mark=1574-1575

Steps to try:
Minimise the CL > OL delays and check all transitional settings
Maybe increase the switch over point to OL on the OL map. It's set to 14.0 as standard, maybe set it to drop into OL at 14.25 if your MAF is well scaled.
I also match my CL map to my OL one, personal preference so that the transitions are smooth.

This is really good to know going forward with adjustments. Thank you! The main thing I'm trying to do is to make it run a little richer and a little less timing between 0.6~0.7 loads while it's in CL.

Edit: @Kodename47 I did as you suggested, dropping the Minimum afr from 14.0 to 14.25 along with subtracting from the CL fueling compensation at .6~.7 load columns and got the desired effect. Still can use a tiny bit of adjustment to make the transition a bit smoother. I also found that my afr from MAFv 3.0~3.3v is riding right on top of the commanded AFR in OL instead of right below it, the way I like. not a huge deal, but I enjoy being a bit OCD on my own stuff. lol I may also shave off the top of the ignition advance at those loads and trade off some part throttle pep for more knock resistance.

Results switching from 14.5 to 14.0 as opposed to 14.8 to 14.0 previously: http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z7-kc1i...1559-1656-1515

After a few more adjustments I will wring it out on the canyons to see if it looks any better than the initial log.

edit 2: After some more adjustment in the same .60 .70 rows on the Cl fuel compensation tables I was able to get it to run as rich as 14.0 (14.35 Commanded) before switching over to OL. Bad thing is that after the adjustment I'm now seeing 2.34% LTFT under OL operation which is the most LTFT I've see before the adjustments (no more than +-1% previously in OL typically runs at 0%). The flash is still relatively fresh, so I'll keep running it keeping an eye on the fuel trims in open loop.

http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z7-kc1i...1410&mark=1303

WOT pull: http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z7-kc1i...3-1337-199-120

Another thing thing noted was some somewhat consistent KC that happens at 0.5~0.7 loads between 3400~4200 RPMs or so. I've shaved a considerable amount of ignition advance in the same areas (the peaks or 'lumps' in the ignition advance base map) but it seems to have little to no effect on reducing this. Though, as I've said, the flash is relatively fresh. Will keep a eye on that, but it's possibly 'false knock'.

http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z7-kc1i...zoom=3833-4986

Edit 3: LTFT in OL is already up to +-3% vs +- 1% before modifying the CL fueling... back to the drawing board. Not sure exactly why the previous settings made the LTFT so stable, but become so out of whack now, @Kodename47 ? A/F learning tables were untouched.

http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z7-kc1i...1584&mark=1021

Edit 4: I decided to take a different approach to try to bring back the OL LTFT back to within +-1%. Instead of making it run richer in CL (which seems to throw my OL LTFT off a tad) I reduced the values in a couple of the CL to OL transistion delay tables, which was one of the suggestions made earlier but I did not apply. Transition delay period is now set to 35, and transition rpm in 2/3/4 gears set to 3200rpm. I'm hoping this will richen up the 0.6~0.8 load areas where it was running leaner than 14.0afrs at and above 3200rpms.

1st log: http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z7-kc1i...zoom=1537-1768

Seems to be doing what I intended it to do pretty well (keep AFR richer than 14.0 at around 0.6 loads above 3200rpm). I'll have to see if I'll stick with these settings since I believe my fuel mileage will suffer. I will run the car like this for at least 100 miles or more just to see if the LTFT is more stable this way than with the previous adjustments to the CL fueling. Although the main goal is still to reduce knock corrections at those loads. If not then I'd probably leave it the way it is and let the computer do it's thing dialing the timing back.

Went back up to the canyons in low-mid 90's*f ambient temps. Looks like the changes made some minor improvements, but did not eliminate knock corrections completely. A lot of information to digest. Oil temps got up to as high as 266*f in the logs, so it's pretty close to the kind of heat seen during a run session on track. (really need to get me an oil cooler) LTFT in OL was at +2.34%. Not too happy about that either, though it's much better then getting fuel trimmed back in OL. The first log also had LTFT as high as +3.12%, so it not any worse.

Uphill 2nd~3rd gear: http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z7-kc1i...-352-2040-6659

Downhill in 3rd gear: http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z7-kc1i...=1&data=1-5-11

3rd~4th gear higher speed road with AC on full blast: http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z7-kc1i...=0&data=1-5-10

Comparing the IAT's from the initial canyon log (80's *f) and these higher temp logs (+100 *f) it would appear that my IAT compensation may have something to say about the amount of knock corrections I was seeing. I have the compensation set at -2.11 @ 104*f and just -0.7 @ 86*f. While the IAT may have a 20*f difference, the oil temps were probably not much lower in the initial log. From experience it would seem knock corrections have more of a correlation to oil temps than intake air temps. Coolant temps did climb up to nearly 200*f while I was running it hard then dropped down to 192*f after I slowed to normal commuting pace, save for when the car was idling at a standstill where the coolant temps climbs back up.

Log with coolant temps recorded (3~4th gear high speed run): http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z7-kc1i...2019-4793-7936

Edit: Reducing and flattening base timing B advance (as 'ol Wayno suggested, making the peaks less pronounced *flattening for less "lumpiness") at 0.6 load had little to no effect on the amount of FBKC I'm seeing while trying to hold it at steady loads.


Difference between older (Z6KC1h) ignition advance and new (Z7KC1i):
https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...1f&oe=581DFD20

Previous log: http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z6-kc1h...6431-6986-6981

Similar log with reduced and smoothed ignition advance table at 0.5~0.6 loads: http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z7-kc1i...=2&data=1-5-12

My best guess is that the FBKC is cause by valvetrain noise at those loads and not actual knock.

Quick update on my track logs. Just came back from a hot & humid track day. Good news is it appears I was able to substantially reduce the FBKC in my track logs using the transient ignition retard table. I had been seeing -3 to -5 degrees FBKC in the logs around 5600-6400 RPM at loads of 0.5 - 0.7 g/rev. I took out around -1 to -4 degrees from the transient ignition retard table in those areas and that helped immensely. So yeah that TIR table is pretty important (at least it was in reducing FBKC in my case).

Still seeing slight FBKC and FLKC in certain areas but given how hot it was today (95-100 F), I'm encouraged that my tweaks seem to be helping. Link to data logs below:

http://datazap.me/u/darksunrise/2076...=1&data=1-4-11

@solidONE - sorry looks like I missed your post above. I'll try to take a look at it after this track weekend but I've also found that there isn't much correlation between knock corrections and 86/104 F IAT's.

Since the temp have been spiking up I decided to check how my car does against the high temps, air conditioning and fan on full blast going up and down the side of the Glendora mountains.

http://datazap.me/u/solidone/gmr-6-2...-720-6035-2800

No oil cooler and about 5K miles on this 0w-20 oil since winter. a lot of small flkc, and as much as -2* KC at the .60-.70 load range at various RPMs. What do you think? I've been using this tune for almost a year. Considering a small oil/air cooler soon along with flex fuel. I'll try to replicate condition of this log if I manage to get it install before summer's end with all else the same (hot, humid, up the side of the mountain) except for oil temps.

I think the log looks good other than the -1.41 to -2.81* KC in the 0.55-0.77 load range you mentioned. Not a huge deal since your FLKC looks minimal but it's significant enough KC that I'd work to reduce it if it was me.

BTW your oil temps were getting up there for street driving! If you're thinking about a small air/oil cooler, I'm using the Perrin cooler (13 row Setrab core) and my max oil temps at the track are 245* F in 95 degree weather. It's hotter than I'd prefer (and oil pressure is borderline at those temps even with 5w30 oil), but on the flipside it doesn't overcool on the street with a small blockoff plate. I think it's a decent compromise.

Ambient temps were at or close to 100*F, humid, A/C on max. So I was intentionally beating on it for "dat datalog". lol

I'm counting on that being the case with the small oil cooler for my daily driver. I dont got time for extended warm up time on my DD car. I plan on using a similarly sized unit. Either a 13 row 12x3.5x2 or 16 row 12x4.5x2 size core (slightly smaller or roughly equivalent to your setrab core).

For the KC I'm going to try a more aggressive transient ignition retard setting at the 0.6-0.8 load range (ala MY17 transient retard settings) and increase the amount applied to the higher temp ranges on the temp compensation table. I dont want to touch the base timing before getting to take some logs after adding oil cooling.

Yeah I had good results when I ramped up the transient ignition retard settings to eliminate the KC I was seeing. It looks like the KC in your logs is sometimes happening as your engine load is decreasing, so it's definitely worth a shot addressing it that way first. I hardly noticed a difference in throttle response even after pulling up to 5* timing in the TIR table in some areas so don't be afraid to aggressively cut timing as needed.

I recall trying to tackle the KC I was seeing at .60-.70 loads by dialing back base timing to no avail leading me to question whether if it's even real knock or just noises caused by the cam timing settings I'm running at that range. This is a big reason I'm not overly concerned about whatever that is causing the KC doing damage. I'm more concerned with it not running optimally with the maximum amount of timing being dialed back by the computer due to phony or 'phantom' knock.

I added around -3~4* of transient retard at the trouble areas and beyond the trouble areas. So far my logs are looking a bit worse after the fresh re-flash with the new settings even under "normal" operating temps. Computer is probably still adjusting... I'm guessing/hoping.

http://datazap.me/u/solidone/z7-kc1i...=1&data=1-5-11

Yeah looks like the TIR tweaks didn't do much for you. It should have had a noticeable effect with -3 to -4* added. I remember seeing an immediate reduction in KC with my track data logs when coming off the throttle. If you've also tried taking out base ignition map timing and that didn't help, maybe it is really phantom knock :iono: