Nightmare driving FR-S vs driving Miata
 

I am having nightmares driving my FR-S.

I bought the car after several lessons from my friend who taught me how to get the car rolling and how to upshift. I learned the basics of downshifting from youtube. I test drove both the FR-S and the Miata with my nooby skills and I managed to get through the test drives. Then I decided to purchase this car and practice on it.

So it's been a month now, and although I have learned more about my car, I still have the hardest time smoothing out my shifts.

My complaints/problems
1. The biting point of the clutch feels high to me. I don't want to release the clutch too fast to catch the biting point because sometimes it would give a slight jerk if I miss it just a by little bit, and other times it would give a huge jerk if I miss it by a lot (like catching the biting point at the end of the range or missing it completely). However, when I release the clutch slowly to catch the biting point, I feel like it's never coming... I keep thinking… wait for it (release a little more)... wait for it (release a little more)... wait for it (dammit where is it)... and when it finally bites, the rpm has dropped too low and/or the speed has also dropped too much, and then I need to adjust to a different rpm for a smooth transition into the next gear. I know there are threads out there for lower clutch engage mod, but the car is designed like this for a reason and other people can obviously drive it just fine, so I want to hear your opinion on this.

2. It is hell break loose in stop-and-go traffic. It has gotten better now since I go to neutral more often to coast at really low speed like less than 8 mph. If the speed is a little higher, I try to maintain the gas at a constant pace so engine braking doesn’t set in too often. But I feel like there is so much engine braking in first and second gear, and the engine braking is so rough that it makes it really hard to have a smooth and slow coast in traffic.

3. I feel like I need to feed this car a little more gas when starting off. If I just let off the clutch to catch the biting point on a level surface, the car would start to move a little bit but will lug and complain (it jerks very unhappily), so I have to give it a little gas to make it smoother. This makes it harder to control the car a little bit when I’m going uphill on my driveway and into the garage.

4. The shifter seems forcibly rough sometimes. Most of the time it is smooth and has a nice tactile feedback, but there are times, I feel I have to use a little more force and really push it into gear and I hear a louder clunk or click than usual. I’m worried, but other posters here said that this is normal and these transmissions make all sorts of noise.

5. The car sounds terrible. In terms of enjoyment, I don’t enjoy the sound of the engine in this car. This is not really a problem with driving, but it does bother me. I usually drive with the windows down so I can listen to the engine coming from the outside (which I prefer because it sounds better to me) and also because the wind masks some of that nasally sound. The other option is to turn on the AC or music a little high so it can mask out the nasally engine sound. Nasally is the best I can describe it; it’s a very whiny noise. I prefer a lower frequency sound like lower pitches that would hit my chest and I can feel them. My car however just makes whiny high pitch sound.

The main reason I’m making this post is because I recently went to test drive the MX-5 again, and I experienced none of these problems! The car will move slowly and steadily on its own from stop if I just release the clutch and catch the biting point (no gas used on level surfaced and just a tiny bit on incline surface). Stopping and starting and coasting at low speeds are smooth and little to no jerk. I must admit, I really, really love the clutch and the shifter on the MX-5 more than what I have in my car. The clutch bites closer to the floor so it is easier for me to feel it. The shifting is shorter and the shifter really wants to "suck" the knob into gear when you it move towards the gear. I don’t even have trouble shifting into 5th; it’s just one smooth motion.

If anyone has ever/is currently experiencing what I am experiencing, I'd love to hear from you. I'd also love to hear if you have suggestions for my lack of experience and skills in driving, or if you have opinions on FR-S vs Miata driving.

Update 1:
Thanks everyone for the encouragement--I am planning to stick with my car and continue to learn it. I know a month is really not that much time and the reason that I haven't gave up is because I know I can do better. I want to experience the joy and enlightenment that the people before me have discovered.

I really want to know if all the issues I am experiencing are because of my skills, or if they are just the design of the car. Are these issues I'm describing normal? There are good days though!

Update 2:
Special thanks to those who pointed out some obvious observations or aspects of the car that might not have been obvious to me since I am new to this car. Some of the things that comes to mind are 900-1500 rpm gas for a smoother start, moving the shift lever slowly and firmly since it’s moving heavy mechanical parts, dead spot at the top of the throttle, embracing the sound that comes with this car. After being aware of these things and to an extent internalizing them, my experience has really improved in just a day. The posters who had a lot of friends to ask questions are very lucky ;).

Things that I will try next will be plugging in the sound tube (thanks to the person who linked the video the demo’ed the difference with and without the plug), changing the transmission oil, and lowering clutch engagement point (I hope the people who recommended this mod tried it themselves).

There were many more helpful comments ranging from tips to critiques so thank you all who commented, and thank you for your encouragement! It seems I haven’t met the threshold for adding a simple thank you to a comment or I would!

Every stick shift car is a little different in regards to operating feel of the shifter and clutch. I've never driven a Miata but from friends I know that have owned the old ones, they told me these cars are indeed quite easy to learn on and drive smoothly.

It's really just a matter of how adaptable you are to driving different cars and what characteristics you really prefer. That being said, imo the twin is already quite easy to drive.

BTW you should figure out how to get it in gear below 8mph, you will do much better in bumper to bumper traffic and safer driving. Try a different gearbox oil that allows easier and smoother engagement (I'm using Subaru Extra-S / Eneos Gear Oil). You can also search the forum as to how to adjust the clutch pedal height or remove the helper spring (me personally I didn't need to do this).

Don't give up keep practicing and maybe give these instructional videos a try:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...8EA7254AE8EC79

Worst case just trade for a Miata? :D

BTW if you need to get a better and more accurate pedal feel, try shoes with very thin soles at both the forefoot and the heel, with straight sides at the midfoot.

Take your time. In 3 months you'll get it down. Burning your clutch isnt as bad as blowing your engine so don't worry.

Again take your time. Try to give it gas to about .9-1.3k rpm and slowly let go of clutch while rolling it. You'll get it down in no time.

You can try the clutch spring mod thing in the diy section. Sounds like it's helped others. I haven't done it cause I'm used to the weird clutch we have. Don't like it still.

What those guys said.

As far as the engine sound goes, in one month you probably haven't heard half the weird noises yet. It is a boxer in a virtually non soundproofed car so you either learn to love it or trade it. The sounds are not going away.

Keep practicing. When I was learning to drive (in a manual) I spent the first few driver's ed lessons on an empty road stopping, starting, going through first three gears, stopping again, and over and over again for an hour. Don't overthink it. This should be done automatically, it's a skill (in neuropsychological sense of the word) not knowledge. You don't learn skills by thinking, you learn them by repeating actions.

Also, in all MT cars I have driven some gas was needed. I haven't driven a twin, but I doubt they are different here, especially that there is not so much of torque. Ultimately, your right foot will go down while your left foot is going down and you won't even think or know or notice how it happens. Just keep practicing.

Re: sound, I thought some things that might help would be removing the sound generator and plugging the hole, and putting on a subtle axleback like the SP Elite (if you can still find it), or equivalent. Then you'll be able to hear the exhaust instead of the engine.

Welcome to the ft86 club!!

Nightmare driving FR-S vs driving Miata
 

when did you get the car? You are just picking, not driving. :) Drive more & the problem soon disappear

Ps: you problem will go away if you stop trying to be like a law abiding citizen/ drive like a granny/ normal car. Try shift @ 4K+ every gear before you get use to it.

Ps2: I'm not joking.

As for the sound- do the sound tube delete. I like the engine sound but I did the sound tube delete, changed my exhaust and added an intake and it sounds fantastic. But the sound tube sound can be grating.

The clutch and shifter is great on the FRS, but the MX-5 has had a LOT of R&D put into the clutch and shifter feel. I saw a review of that car on TV and they went on at length about how much time they put into just the shifting FEEL alone. As you learn to drive the manual more you'll grow into it, but I have a feeling it'll never feel like the MX-5.

Watch motoman tv, his tech review is the best on Internet cuz he get the engineer to talk about them.


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Sound tube would help, exhaust will make it better but in the end it still will sound like a boxer engine.

Well, HELLO chrisngn .... and WELCOME to ..... The Gang!

First off, I'll comment on driving the miata vs the FR-S.

I drove my Miata (NC) for about 80,000 miles before I purchased my 2013 FR-S. The first thing I noticed was the high release point. At first, I thought I didn't have it in gear. That just takes some getten used to.

I found the miata 5 speed the smoothest MT that I ever shifted. The balance, throw, gates and smoothness are spot on. I still find the FR-S MT a bit clunky and rough (relative to the miata) ...... but, hey, that is what it is.

Yep, with the clutch high release point, touchy gas pedal and relatively light flywheel ....... shifting is an learned science/art in this machine. You might try this technique:

I would suggest that when shifting, wind up the last gear pretty tight (4-5,000 rpms) before shifting into the next higher gear.

Also, when shifting, pull (or push) the shift lever slowly and firmly into the next gear.

It's not a toggle switch ..... the lever is moving heavy transmission parts.

I suggest you NOT "lazy leg" it ……. DO push the clutch pedal all the way to the floor (even though it does have a high release point).

Hey, don't feel bad ....... I've been driving MT vehicles for over 65 years and I still "kill" my FR-S about once a week ...... :(


humfrz

LOL Do you have a spiel saved or just memorized?

Miata manuals (at least the NA, NB and NC generations I've driven) are very intuitive. It doesn't take much time for those shifters to become second nature. Same for most Honda manuals, e.g., S2000 and RSX. Those are probably the best feeling MT's out there.

The manuals in the FR-S/BRZ are not quite as good. They are notchier going into gear, the clutch has less feel and there's a slight dead spot at the top of the throttle pedal. As a result I have to think a little more about shifts around town to make sure they're smooth. The good news is with practice, you'll be shifting smoothly in no time. One thing that helped me is lowering the clutch engagement point.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8040

About the engine sound, I wasn't thrilled about it when I first bought the car. A Perrin catback easily fixed that, and I really love it now with a UEL header.

Plugging the sound tube and adding a good axle back sure makes it much better, at least from my point of view. Plugging it in alone would be a good first cheap step. I totally get what OP is saying, the sound inside the cabin is tinny, hollow and nasal. By putting a fart pipe out the back, the cabin is filled with more low end tone, depending on what you get. Depending on RPM and windows up, I think theres some of that boxer left over, but with much more character.

@chrisngn
Regarding your list, let me go over it, as I was in similar boat, this was my first MT car, I got it new. I did have a few lessons with manual, but let me tell you, my first 2-3 months of driving it was pretty stressful, to the point that I would come home, but my mind would be rewinding and going over my commute experience of the day. My wife sometimes caught me being totally out of situation, cause I was so in it. Best thing I can advise is to get someone who drives MT, drive your car to get a feel for it and then teach you or tell you the tricks.
1. At first I thought so too, but no after 3 years it is so natural to me, I don't think about it. I think I become comfortable after a year or two, but I drive little, say by 10k.
2. Traffic was my worst nightmare, as I would stall quite a bit at first. Learn to get into first, try double clutching, rev matching. It is absolutely necessary, especially for emergency cases. You got to learn how it goes, you cant force it, but it does need a good push with revs at appropriate level. Its possible.
3. 900-1.5k rpm totally depending on how fast you want to take off. Yes, a little bit of gas helps.
4. Needs to be warm, will be worse when winter/cold temperature sets in. It does clunk etc, but there are explanations, depending on the case. Its normal imo unless its absolutely horrible sound.
5. As I initially mentioned, plug in the sound tube in passanger foot well - cheap first mod. Then see if you would go for an aftermarket axle-back/cat-back.

Miata may be different in some regards, I have not driven one, but I am fine now, so no problem. If after a few months you still don't enjoy it, just trade, if Miata works for you, great, its not worth it if it isn't fun. But don't give up right away, give it a try. I find it rewarding when you really nail the shifting, up shifts, all this mental, pedal and shifter masturbation... Its definitely not for everyone. The car seems to be designed to be clunky/mechanical in nature, I was actually blown away, coming from softer run of the mill cars.

:lol: ...... the spiel is saved ........ the memory part comes in when I try to find where I put it ........ :D


humfrz

Well...it takes time... I used to have all the problem you have addressed. You just dont understand your car very well yet.

High clutch release point? You havent driven a 350z/370z yet....

The only thing i dont like about this car is attracting too much haters lol~~

I am the biggest advocate of plugging/deleting the kazoo around.
Yes an exhaust will help but it remains a small displacement boxer engine and no matter what you put on there it will never "punch you in the chest" as OP stated he likes.

I have never had any of the issues driving mine that you described and have never once double clutched it or felt any need to. Even cold it is fine. I seem to be in a small minority with those statements though.

Nightmare driving FR-S vs driving Miata
 

I preferred the shifter and clutch in my FR-S to the ND Miata I test drove last fall. The Miata shifter didn't give much feedback (it was smoother). Top down, the Miata was super nice, but I did not like it at all with the top up.


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Lol I must agree as I saw this somewhere before.


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Maybe double clutching helping is all in my head. I dont think its necessary, it works without it, but to me it feels like it does or makes things easier. I have not driven another twin, but say I am going in 2nd, slow down too much, and have to get into first to go, it doesnt do without some work on my end. Certainly I think that rev matching into first makes for a smoother take off.
It did get better over time. I'm at tender mileage of 33k kms, so yea, not overly "broken in" by some people's standards :).
I also even find 2nd a bit clunky, so 1st is roughest, second is about half as bad, 3 and up its easy peasy.

Second (or third) the clutch pedal adjustment DIY - it makes things far easier (I've driven mine for 3 years, and rarely mess up a shift enough for my wife to notice, including in stop-go traffic). I think once you do this, it will also solve #2 and #3 as well (I typically start without giving gas - once you comfortably find the engagement point, it will roll on its own). First gear will always be very rough though when coasting to a stop (so your idea of popping it into neutral under say 10km/h is a good one).

For the sound, the stock boxer won't sound as smooth as an inline (this was one of my first gripes as well). If you want to enjoy the sound more in-cabin, try a drop in filter or possibly a (used/very inexpensive) short-ram/cold-air intake (I find I don't hear my exhaust too much in cabin, and I have a Greddy SP Elite axleback).
I had an Injen for about a year and a half - it sounded fantastic (throaty induction sound), but had an issue with bogging/stalling randomly on rare occasions.

Later years RSX Type-S also have a high clutch pedal catch point.

This too shall pass...
 

Give it some time. I've driven MT for decades and I too found the feel of the OEM clutch a tad finicky during the first 3-6 months. As the clutch wore in and I became more in-tune with what it needed (slippage and throttle), it is just fine and more to the point... it IS a "driver's car" so you will need to develop the muscle memory and such to keep revs and clutch in harmony -- while you have a BLAST!!

Don't get discouraged.... I've driven Miata's too... and they're a great rig... but it is not a 86 and an 86 is not a Miata, so "Apples and Oranges" both good, just different.

This thread is making me wanna test drive a Miata for kicks...

It's a good car, lots rolls & pretty comfy. :thumbup:

Careful ........ that top down experience can be addictive ......... :thumbsup:


humfrz

Probably a better match for the twins than the Miata is the new Fiat 124 Abarth - same basic platform but better soundproofing, slightly bigger and heavier, and according to all the reviews it's a great handling car. Some nice Mopar goodies are coming for it as well. Hope to see a head-to-head with the MCR'ed twins soon.

I was also between a miata and a frs but the frs felt better to me, I had driven manual before just never with dense city traffic more like a small town at first it was a hassle it still is seeing as I've only had my car for month but I've seen my progress and the car has gotten better for me or should I say I've gotten better for the car. The engine sound to me is decent, but a good exhaust will fix it
The sound tube delete really would help a lot helped me to shut up my gf and her constant complaints on how my car drones so much and all the noises bother her. After he delete it's decently quiet but as previous post say there are a lot of sounds, my gf is no in love with the car and actually asked me if I can put the sound tube back in lol but I prefer the nice quiet interior


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All the issues are you.

Some of that may be lack of skills but a lot of it is true to this car. Its clutch point is high, so forget feathering around in the city in first in traffic. Also, yes its torquey on the bottom in first, so leave your self a half a car if you can't control that. You don't want to jump into someones rear bumper. You can drive in second and just get your revs up to that gear when you start off, but that gets anoying. This car is a go car. You let out the clutch it goes, it doesn't sleep and its clutch is quick. I wouldn't think the miata is much different. I'd like to drive one to see

Guess you should have put more thought into the miata before jumping over to the FRS. From what I read, the FRS is a much better performing car. And from what you said of the miata; it doesn't have the characteristics of being a quick to go car. But like i said Id have to drive it

Driven both, the new Miata definitely has an easier to modulate clutch IMO, with its lower and wider bite point. But for the experienced MT driver I don't think it would be that hard to adapt to the GT86.

suggestions for each of your issues
1. Clutch Adjustment/spring removal - i recently did the spring removal and i haven't missed it. I still need to do the adjustment.

2. If i know the next stoplight will be red by the time i get to it i leave it in whatever gear it is in almost to the point of stalling then push in the clutch and brake. In lots of stop and go i just leave it in first-second. you'll get used to in time

3. it's all about finding that sweet spot of gas/clutch to get it going. It will take time to learn.

4. Motul 300/transmission oil change/mtec springs/weighted shfit knob will help - what you are experiencing is normal

5. buy an exhaust to drown out the engine noise

i say rev the heck out of your car and then shift up...like a sports bike it doesn't like to be going slow and shifting..but if you get it up to speed and the rpms up the shifts will be smoother

I suggested the clutch spring removal earlier in the post as well. Seeing that you've done it, did you get used to the catch point before doing this? I'm considering doing it as well but after 5 months owning my FR-S, I've gotten used to it. Do you like it better as everyone else has?

OP ... you have to EMBRACE the noises, clutch feel, notchy gears, road noise, etc. etc. because that's what race cars feel like. No sound deadening. No soft clutches. I used to own a 911. Trust me. Clutch was heavy. Engine was noisy. I could hear the transmission , gears, synchros all moving, tire noise. I LOVED it. It's part of the experience.

If you want ..... EASY .... then the 86 is not for you.

Keep practicing. In time ... you won't even have to think about shifting.

Just wait until you get the crickets.

Jokes aside, the FR-S isn't an easy car to drive properly, but it's worth the trouble and the effort to learn its quirks. Like Braces said above, this is a pure sports car. The Miata is more forgiving, but it's a different type of car, so in a way you're comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, it's possible you got the wrong car for you, but it's going to take some time before you can really know for sure - a month isn't long enough to really learn it.

I don't know what everyone's talking about. The clutch is easy to feather in first in traffic, it's easy to balance on the clutch at a stoplight on a hill (not recommended), it's easy to upshift smoothly, it's easy to downshift smoothly, the shifter requires very little effort to move between gears, the pedals are set up very well for heel/toe downshifting. This is not a difficult car to drive slowly. The only time I double clutch is from first to second if the transmission is cold (say, just pulling out of the neighborhood on a cold day).


My drivetrain mods. It doesn't cost a lot of money to make a tremendous improvement in feel. I haven't removed the clutch spring.
Motul 300 in trans and diff - $80
MTEC shift springs - $33
Whiteline transmission bushing insert - $31
Whiteline rear diff carrier bushing inserts - $54
Energy Suspension shifter mount bushing - $18

I didn't feel really comfortable until I put 30k miles on the odometer, it was my second MT car, 4th MT I've driven and I already had >15k miles and 3 years experience. I think this car is a little more difficult to figure out in daily scenarios than most. Shifts like butter when you're pretending you're a racecar driver on track, but in stop and go traffic? Like @humfrz said, it's an art, but the kind of art like a well stacked supermarket display: 99% of the world doesn't give a shit, and your coworkers will give you a pat on the back.

Props for giving it a try. Good luck, hope you stick with it.