Subaru trying to deny my warranty please help!
 

Moderators: I don't mean to SPAM this topic I am just not sure exactly where to post it and feel having it in numerous areas of the forums will help get the most feedback. Thank you!


Hey there FT86 family,

Admittedly, I have been holding back from writing this because I feel like an idiot for even finding myself in this predicament and more so, because I undoubtedly expect some people to doubt my story that I know as truth. Not to mention, the internet is full of those who take joy in watching others pitfalls. Anyways, here it goes. I am looking for any help, support, advice, or knowledge that can help me get out of this situation as intact as possible. I have been in major stress since Monday and figure it’s worth taking a shot seeing what type of responses this post will garner.


I bought a 2016 BRZ Series.Hyperblue for 2,000 off MSRP from Subaru of Glendale with 193 miles on it. I was told the car would still maintain all factory and manufacturer warranties (which still seems to be the case). However, I was sold the car as used. I was told the car was an unwind vehicle and while being asked to keep this information quiet, the car was purchased by a salesman in order to hit the monthly sales quota and then unwound. Unfortunately, upon purchasing the car something with this story seemed to be shifty as from what I know now, that all may be true but there also seems to be an owner who purchased the car in late January. Anyways, I dismissed it because the car ran perfectly and rest assured, I had manufacturer warranties if anything was seriously wrong. With that said, I had driven the car with absolutely no issues for three months until I took the car to be tinted and upon picking up my car, the car failed to start. I tried everything from forum searching, to attempting to jump start the car, and to no avail, nothing worked. The vehicle had full electricity from alarms, stereo, lights, etc. However, the engine would not turn over (crank). The steering wheel was locked and I was being shown a blinking immobilizer light on my cluster. In conjunction with this, when I would press on the clutch it would recognize my key fob was in range (per the light on the cluster). Finally, I gave up and had the car towed to Puente Hills Subaru {PHS} (Subaru Roadside wouldn’t assist so Geico was my only option and they towed the car to the nearest dealer).


From this point, I initially received a call from a service advisor at PHS stating that my ECU was producing readings (ignition count, etc.) with all values indicating “0”. He then told me he had not seen anything like this and that despite the unusual circumstance he would keep “prodding”. However, before he let me go he asked if I had ever “tuned or flashed” my car. I told him no because to my knowledge the vehicle never had been. I know at the very least I for sure did nothing of the sort. The next day I received a call from the Service Manager at PHS asking me for a full detailed history of the car and I gladly obliged telling him everything from the time I bought it up until it arrived on their lot. At that point, he told me he noticed the tint stickers saying the windows should not be rolled down and I confirmed the car head been tinted the day it stopped working. He then told me either I or the tint shop was being dishonest (insinuating I was lying) and that according to him my car had been “flashed or tuned” with a “2015 STi profile using a COBB Accessport”. He then proceeded to tell me that was the reason my car would not start because the ECU was locked up with a profile it didn’t recognize. After staunchly denying his allegations, he told me he had already spoken with a Subaru of America technician to have my car flagged as modified for this alleged “flash or tune”. He then told me I had two options, to find this accessport that my car was married to, or pay for a new ECU as my warranty would be denied for this repair and more than likely any other future engine or powertrain problems should they arise.


I then went to the place where my car was tinted and sat with the owner for upwards of an hour and a half watching surveillance footage of my car from the time I dropped it off to the moment the car was towed away. During this time, I could find no time where foul play could be insinuated. Moreover, I called the service manager who wrongly accused me and told him what I was currently doing and that I would like some proof of his alleged claims. He told me that he could do so as soon as I decided to pay for the service or towed the car off of their lot. He then told me he had “9 minutes to get to a meeting across the street” the moment myself or the owner of the tint shop wanted to speak with him. All he did was reaffirm his allegations that my car was tuned with the aforementioned “2015 STi profile using the COBB accessport”. He also claimed that this would have had to been done to the car right before it’s mechanical/electrical failure based on his ECU readings printout of all zero’s for the values listed. Later in the day, the service manager called me to tell me that he was mistaken in his allegations regarding the “2015 STi profile/COBB Accessport” but that he remained steadfast in his claims that my car was “tuned or flashed” but that upon further research with a Subaru of America technician my car was producing these zero readings with the profile of a 2015 BRZ and that the calibration ID’s and numbers were not matching the VIN of the vehicle. He then told me he found two previous owners on the history of the car prior to me (an owner who originally purchased the car in late January, and “one of those Glendale names” (WOW prejudice much?!?!). I told him I had no idea and never did anything he was claiming. He told me frankly it didn’t matter what I was claiming because he had proof saying otherwise and regardless of whether or not I did it, the “tune/flash” whenever it occurred would still allow denial of my warranty repair and a “flagging” of my vehicle for future servicing needs. I then was asked by the same guy to deliver my second key as he was going to try and make the car operate/run with the current profile system of a 2015 BRZ. I then obliged and gave him the key and during my time there he showed me a printout of my vehicle and readings with values of “0” while also showing me what it would otherwise look like by comparing my readings with other customer’s readings of the day. He even went so far to tell me that he had seen so many people come in pleading for mercy and bailout and that Subaru of America would even sometimes provide up to 75% of the repair costs if they would just come clean on the alleged modifications. I told him I had nothing to come clean about because I honestly did nothing to the vehicle. He then told me he would be rich if he had a dime for every time someone lied to his face about modifying their vehicle. He then told me he would try his best to get the car working on its current situation but couldn’t guarantee me anything because of the alleged “tune/flash”.


I then opened up a case with Subaru of America detailing the aforementioned events for the gross lack of professionalism, wrongful persecution despite my staunch denial of his allegations, amongst many other issues. I was then told they would look into the matter and within the next day I received a call from the Service Manager asking if his conversation with a Subaru of America regarding my displeasure of the case was accurate and I told him yes. He then told me to come pick my car up and tow it away indicating he was refusing service to my car from here on out. I called SoA and they told me they gave absolutely no directive for such measures to refuse service but that all authorized Subaru Retailers were independently owned and could do as they wished regarding service but that they would note this on my case and further investigate. The story goes on and on but rather than elaborate on an already longer series of events than most will even read through, as it currently stands my car is still in PHS’s service lot and starting next week SoA will be sending a warranty/district rep to inspect and investigate all the findings and determine if whether or not my car will be covered by warranty for this repair and going forward if indeed the Service Manager’s allegations are true.


In short, I am wondering if any of you who have stuck around long enough to read this would have any idea if any of his allegations are even possible, if you have any advice to save me from what seems to be the inevitable consequences for something I did not do, or any other further information/comments.


Thank you so much,


Jordan

your best bet would be to try your luck at the dealership you bought the car from. if the previous owner did flash the ECU and it was the source of the problem, then regardless if you did it or not, it sounds like you are screwed.

Can you start the car with the keyfob physically touching the push start button?

If the steering wheel is locked, turn the wheel slightly so the lock isn't binding and try to start it (bet you this is the root cause, I came across this 20 years ago with the Integra and figured it out with the hairdresser lol, and if you google this it still exists with Push Button Start cars).

For example: http://www.rav4world.com/forums/99-4...nt-solved.html

Get a lawyer ASAP.

This doesn't sound like Subaru's fault (as in the company itself) but either the Dealership who sold you the car or the Tint shop did something. But in any case, you need a Lawyer right now.

Trying?
Sounds like you haven't even gotten past the regional rep and you've only dealt with a dealer.

If you don't want to deal with this service manager, give South Coast Subaru a call. Tell Ferdie that Alex sent you.

I never liked Puente Hills Subaru, especially since they tried to sell me a car in 2013 with a $4000 markup.

-alex

Thank you all for your quick responses. This has a very stressful week to say the least. I had tried everything insofar as turning the wheel, holding the fob close to the push start and nothing worked. I tried for a good 2-3 hours straight as I waited for a tow.

I have looked into getting a lawyer but frankly the financial commitment is what is limiting me from acquiring one at the moment.

Do you have experience in a matter like this? It sounds like you're familiar with the process of dealing with the regional rep and what not? What's the whole process look like in summation?

lofuckingl. The tint shop? The dealership that sold the car? Lawyer up asap?

Please explain.

The process:

dealer inspection > warranty work > claim approval or denial by Subaru regional rep > dealer gets paid or doesn't get paid.

From what I can see, the dealer is stupid and doesn't know how to submit proper claims, or they have submitted similar claims in the past and they got denied.

At this point, your fastest option is to find a dealer willing to work with you on this issue. If you cannot find a dealer, then start putting together a timeline w/ documented facts and find a lawyer.

But seriously, give South Coast Subaru a call. If needed, ask for Ferdie and let him know the situation, because assuming your facts are correct this is a fairly simple warranty fix that any dealer wanting money will take.

-alex

Very much appreciated Alex! I will definitely look into giving SCS a call. At the moment it's just become a mess. Subaru Roadside won't tow me anywhere because according to their guidelines they will tow to the nearest dealer and since I am already at one I am screwed with that. Geico will only tow me up to 20 miles with me being responsible for overage fees. This whole situation is a fiasco. I have been documenting constantly and I just feel like this whole process is so wrong. I am guilty until proven innocent and despite me mentioning the Magnuson-Moss Act and asking SoA how one claim from a Service Manager who couldn't even get his facts straight (STi Profile, COBB Accessport, etc.) they still seem to side with the dealer. It is just so crappy. As for my story, I would gladly take a polygraph if it meant I could prove my innocence, conventional logic would say that if I had any doing in this alleged "flash/tune" I would have owned up to it by now. I don't enjoy spending hours a day trying to get the matter resolved with SoA, the dealership, not having a car, no rental because my warranty is in question, documenting everything, costing me time and money with work, it's just a mess!

with my car I was just driving along and all of a sudden it died while cruising. Nothing worked either just like you. New battery didn't fix it, jump start, nothing. But I still had power to my radio and windows and lights. After a week at the dealership, to which they were extremely confused on and have never seen anything like this before. They tried to blame my trd intake on it... I calmly stated that a simple intake would not kill the car. A engineer came and looked at it, and found out it was a bad engine wire harness. After they replaced that (under warranty) it worked just fine.. So maybe you could ask to look at that also?

Is the car you're getting service at. The same place you bought it? If not I would definitely bring it back to where you bought it. They will be more motivated to get things squared away since it's their fault if the car was flashed prior to you purchasing.

Subaru probably made the assumption that the car has an aftermarket ECU flash if the emission control variables are all undefined / zero when trying to start the car, as the aftermarket ECU tends to have an infinite loop in place to not let the routine finish initialization in order to keep the check engine light off.

The BRZ has a Toyota ECU which requires a Techstream laptop to work on it, I don't think the traditional Subaru diag stuff would work.

I never trust Puente hills Subaru because they always put high mark up on cars, that says a lot of about their character. although I live close I would rather take it to other dealership. I would take it back to Glendale Subaru and have them to take care of it. But why your roadside assistance was denied too?

Something happened in the tint shop. Period. How long did you leave the car there? You had to sue them before taking the car from there. You gave them a functioning car and you got back a broken car. They have to compensate for all the service costs, the towing costs and provide you a rental car the complete period you don't have a car.


Unfortunately, you didn't sue them and now you need to ask a lawyer. You'll need also support from your Subaru dealer. The dealer needs to claim that the issue is the wrong ECU flash and that this could happen only when the car was in the tint shop. In a sense, they have to claim that the car cannot be driven for some hours or days with a wrong ECU!

By the way, the Subaru dealer has the full right to deny fixing your car under warranty. You can check your contract. It should say very clearly that whatever kind of chip tuning or flashing of the ECU is a void of the warranty. Period.

You would think that Subaru dealers are FULLY AWARE of any tunes on their used cars. To sell the car they remind you that it has its original warranty. You feel reassured until something like this arises.

It is preposterous to think that the tint shop had anything to do with this. Butttttt ... Strange that the issue shows up at the tint shop. Cause and effect. Cause and effect.

I would work with Gendale Subaru. Speak to the Sales Manager. Explain the situation. Tell him you didn't touch the vehicle (hopefully you are telling the truth) nor did anyone else.
Ask them did they scan the car originally to determine if it was modified. Seems like most dealerships would do a general scan for vin information, recalls, tsbs,etc. Ask for supporting evidence that the car was not tuned. That's the key.

If they say they don't typically scan all cars and they are sold AS IS. Then they are engaged in deceptive practice. You can't argue ignorance, tell you everything is fine since you have factory warranty .... And then this happens ... And you're screwed.

Ask for documentation that the car was "stock" when they sold it to you.

I don't know what the terms "unwind" and "unwound" mean in the context you used them when describing the initial sale.. can you clear that up for me?

It's a shame you weren't able to have the car towed back to the dealer who sold you the car. I've been a AAA Premium member (or something like that.. pays for tows up to 100 miles) for many years. Their tow service is usually at least pretty good, although I've had to wait for a few hours on a couple occasions. Even if you only get one tow every two years, you still come out ahead. I hate their home and auto insurance; their service is abyssmal. Their roadside program, however, is worth its weight in gold. Consider it for the future. Next time you break down, just tell'em to tow it anyplace you'd like and there's no charge.

Was your car a "certified" used car? If so, you've got 12/12,000 coverage bumper-to-bumper from date of sale, and 7yrs/100,000 mile drivetrain from manufacture date warranties, and any car that new w/ mileage that low bought from that car brand's dealership should certainly have qualified for the "certified" program. My experience has been w/ Toyota (I have an FR-S), but I would think that Subaru would have a similar program.

I concur with the previous poster; you need to be dealing with the dealership that sold you the car. His suggestion re/ asking them pointed questions regarding tunes and documentation prior to selling you the car are dead on. You may wish to ask them about the "certified" used program, and, if your car was NOT a "certified" vehicle, why wasn't it? That may help get some further information out of them.

Your situation sounds really painful. I had an AWFUL used car purchase exerience about a year and a half ago. Long story and I won't bother to relate it, but it resulted in my license being suspended due to the dealership not processing registration paperwork properly (or at all for a few months), losing the title, and about $11,000 in repairs that I couldn't make due to the title/registration issues that delayed my ability to drive the car for about 100 days after taking delivery of it. Coincidentally, that was 10 days longer than the 90 day lemon law in NYS. Well played, felonious used car criminal dealership. I feel your pain, O.P., and wish you luck. No matter what, this WILL pass and in another year or two you'll have a story to tell.

Best wishes,

Barry

FWIW, many auto insurance policies cover towing. I've used mine a few times. You might be paying for something you don't need.
Sorry for the hijack. Carry on...

Thank you all for your support and help in providing knowledge and advice.

@SleepingPanda. I will try to get the car to where I purchased but the tow is the issue as of right now.

@krayzie I appreciate your input and knowledge on the technical side of these things. Unfortunately, I think that is where the dealer is trying to get me. They know the average consumer wouldn't know there way around how the ECU works, or calibration ID's, 0 value readouts, ignition counts, etc.

@Speed2th. I purposely did not buy from PHS when they also had a Series.Hyperblue during the time of my purchase. The salesman redlined it as it was cold with absolute carelessness. Definitely not a car I wanted after that. As for Subaru Roadside, when I called about my initial need for a tow they told me they had no in service providers in my area (I was in a city, not some rural area). I had to call Geico which would only tow me 20 miles (which is why PHS was the only place the car could go). Now, Glendale is 27 miles away and Geico won't cover that far, and Subaru Roadside won't assist because they tow to the nearest dealer, well my car is already at a dealer so they won't tow any further even despite me telling them they are refusing me service. They told me take that up with SoA which I of course had already done.

@nikitopo believe me I thought the same regarding the tint shop and so they were my first stop. I went to an incredibly reputable shop and on top of that, there just isn't much logic in a tint shop tuning my car for me because in what way does that activity benefit them or in turn, help me? Nonetheless, I went and sat with the owner and watch complete surveillance footage from various angles from drop off to pickup of my vehicle. In that time, there was no conceivable foul play. The only time I could not see what was going on was in an interval of maybe 40 seconds tops. Even then, I doubt any flash/tune could be done in that amount of time, not too mention they drove the car out of the bay at that point. Moreover, I never saw any sort of device that was slyly put inside any pockets, and lastly, I had the guy who was in my car for that 40 second interval brought in the back of the shop so I could question what he was doing. All in all, while I agree the tint shop should assist because my car's well being was left in their possession, I highly doubt they had anything to do with this.

@Braces Thank you so much for the helpful advice. I will definitely be using your line of questioning with Glendale assuming I can get their in person. I don't feel like an over the phone will get me the answers I need. Once again thank you! I definitely feel like getting info from Glendale and getting the car to Glendale will be two feathers in my cap dealing with this matter. As for whether I am telling the truth, as I told SoA and the service manager, I would gladly take a polygraph if it meant I could prove my innocence. Futhermore, as I have mentioned in other topics, I highly doubt I would keep fighting this hard considering the circumstances (no transportation, no rental, no work, no pay, endless hours of documenting events, endless hours of calling PHS and SoA, stress, etc.) if I had any level of guilt.

@MuseChaser Thank you so much Barry, what a horrible situation you were in, I cannot even begin to compare mine to yours. I definitely will keep fighting and keep my head up but this has been so stressful over the last week. I will look into AAA, my car was sold to me as "used" I believe but I assumed CPO and Used were essentially the same thing considering the mileage that the car had when I bought it (193 on the ODO). As for an unwind, my understanding is that an unwind is somewhat common where someone can come in and "finance" the vehicle but for some reason or another the car has to be returned because financing didn't go through within the allotted time of their option contract, etc.

I don't see how towing your car is an unsolvable issue. just pay some money out of pocket. if you are so strapped for cash that you cannot pay $100 for a tow (at most, if you use your insurance coverage) then I don't know what to say to you... please don't take offense to this but that was the kind of vibe I was getting from reading your posts.

That Dealer that is doing the repair has not clue about ECU. The 0 sums he is reading can only come from a car that has be reflashed with less than 100 miles on it, a newly replace ECU with less than 100miles on it. Or the wiring or ECU is bad. Good luck.

If the Subaru Rep finds the ECU has indeed been modified, then there is no recourse through Subaru or through his warranty. A lawyer MUST get involved to pursue the independent party responsible for the failure, period.

@ryoma No it definitely is something I'm going to have to do I am just trying to find the least costly way of getting it done. More than anything, I am just cautious to pay money and tow it to Glendale for the fear of them just denying fault and following suit by agreeing with whatever notes the service manager from PHS made.

@skye67 could you possibly elaborate further? What would cause the sums to be reading 0's. The service manager claimed that it indicated the flash had just been done but as I stated, I watched the footage at the tint shop and can obviously say I didn't do it, so what could cause this. Is there any direct way to dispute his hypothesis that just because some numbers read 0 that it doesn't mean it has been flashed or tuned. I honestly believe the car has never been tuned or flashed. I just can't see a way that someone within 200 miles would do that to the car. I feel like it was just an easy way for them to blame me (so I have to pay) and meanwhile replace a whole part that would surely fix the issue (the ECU), rather than digging around deeper to really see what's causing it.

@Kostamojen I will definitely look into lawyering up but I figure I should wait to exhaust all other resources before entering into what will surely begin some long litigation and arbitration process in small claims court.

As always, thank you all for giving input. Any and all input and feedback is helpful.

before even towing the car to Glendale, talk to them and give them as much information as possible. ask them if they have ever encountered this problem before and tell them that you bought the car from them (this is the most important part). if they deny everything, you need to be assertive and don't take "no" for an answer.

If your dealer told you that someone tried to flash your car with a COBB tune, you have to believe him. He knows something more than us. I would expect that someone in the tint shop did this and now they're trying to hide the truth. Obviously, they wanted to flash the car and go for a ride and have some fun going sideways. They were stupid because COBB creates tunes only for FI engines and there is no tune for our cars. They saw that it is a Subaru, but they didn't think it is not an STI! So they flashed your car with an incorrect tune. The easiest solution would be to find the guy with this COBB accessory and re-flash the original factory tune. Your factory tune is stored there. This will cost you nothing. Otherwise, good luck installing a new ECU unit from the factory? By the way, I am not sure how you could see this in the surveillance video. You alter the tune when you are inside the car. There is a port under the steering wheel. You don't need to open the engine or do anything else.

not sure if youre looking for a good dealership, but i recommend Subaru in Torrance. They literally fix anything and everything for me without having to worry about asking them any nagging questions.

Good to know. Thank you!

You have no clue what your saying, most of the techs are clueless, they simply diagnose an issue like a mechanic then look at a factory service manual to confirm. Sometimes they can't even do that because they know it will cost that franchised shop a bit too much and SOA won't pay. Also a cobb accessport literally won't flash a a file over to our ecus it won't get past the first tests to write it over. 0 values are being read most likely due to a damage wiring harness and the dealer has a preconceived notion about the BR-Z and the WRX STi immediately blaming it on a modification

Thank you so much! I will definitely see if maybe I can redirect there immediate thoughts of a tune/flash to the engine wiring harness. If you don't mind me asking, you seem to know more than I would about why it would be producing "0's" and such. Is it possible to have a "2015 BRZ profile or tune" or whatever the service manager is claiming? Also what about the fact he's claiming I have calibration ID's and such that don't match?

You don't have a Subaru problem, you have dealership problems. Take it back to the dealer that sold the car and get a real inspection done. I'd bet money you have a damaged ECU or something affiliated with it. If the Glendale dealer gives you the same runaround, I'd get SOA involved immediately if you haven't already.

For sure there are bad and good technicians, but don't you think they have ways to find out if a car was flashed? They also mentioned that the calibration IDs are different. Check the comment below. I am not sure if a COBB flash can pass the first tests or not. Have you ever tried?

This is the main reason I believe this is what happened. How the dealer knew that the flash was made using a COBB unit and not something else? If he cannot provide a proof of this, then check if your ECU has an issue.

If the dealer said a brz or 86 has a cobb tune its BS, cobb dont tune brz/86. The 86/brz ecu is different to wrx or wrx sti. the processor is different

If the dealer can read the ecu calid and the CVN then the ecu is working.

The zero values the dealer is talking about is likely whats shown below , shoen is toyota techstream diagnistics. all the se counters get reset on flat battery , battery disconnection, or if ecu us reset of reflashed.

This is normal and does not effect operation.

subaru SSM diagnostic toll shows similar counters/timers in ecu.


http://i.imgur.com/j2Dyd.png

Your car couldn't start after the tint work.

If you tinted the windshield, was it possible that the tint shop did short-circuit your ECU? Because the ECU is located below the dash near the firewall, the water/solution used during the tint process might drip down pass the gap between the windshield and the top of the dashboard and reach the ECU/harness. Just a thought.

In any case I wouldn't like to be in such a situation. I hope this guy to find a solution quickly ...

Agreed. That's a more plausible explanation. Laughing at the idea that the tint guys just decided to install an improper tune on your car to do burn outs while you waited in the reception area.

I never heard tinting the front windshield. Is it legal in U.S.?

Are you 100% sure the battery is ok? Does the key on the dash turn green when you get in the car and press the brake?

@steve99 can answer better than I can but this should explain it and should call him to the thread:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62332

Your ecus cal id should be something like ZA1JF something something something

If it were a 2015 calibration id it'd have something like ZA1JD something something something or the like, theres no real way to prove this without someone having an OFT or tactrix cable or a techstream laptop and cable to confirm what the dealer is saying.

I've used tech stream before values of zero only really appear when theres a power interruption or reflash, I think the tint shop pulled the battery just in case or alternatively the wiring harness is loose or came loose. If the dealership read the cal they have a stable canbus connection.



Edit: Looks like steve99 already answered :lol: