Why can't I decide... Direction for audio build
 

For whatever reason I can't for the life of me figure out why I'm continuing to second guess myself so much with my audio build.


Initially I was going to do an OEM Audio Plus build with an 8100NEX. I decided to up that and got a couple of sound shops to do up a build quote, mostly consisting of Focal KRX2's or Morell Elates, Alpine PDX or JL amplification with JL subs and Audison DSP.


I then bounced back down to just doing the OEM Audio Plus build, then bounced back up to going all the way with a build focused around Focal Utopia BE No. 5 / No. 7 with Mosconi zero 3 amplification.


I'm not looking to simply throw money away. In Canadian pricing, I'm probably looking at somewhere around $3,500 for the OEM Audio Plus build (with replacement head) which in some ways feels like too much money for not a lot (though I could be wrong). At the other extreme if I go with the Utopia's and Mosconi's I'm probably clocking in right around the $20k mark which feels like too much money to be putting into a car audio system when I only drive my car a couple of times a week and will not be doing any audio competitions or anything. The midpoint with KRX2's or Elates is going to be around a $12k build and I start thinking both directions from there - too much to spend for what I probably get over the OEM Audio Plus build, and if I'm spending $12k on that build, I may as well spend $20k on the Utopia and Mosconi build.


Am I just overthinking this? Is the $20k build really that huge of an improvement over the OEM Audio Plus build that it makes it worth dropping the extra $16k on?


Half of me thinks "It's just car audio, it's never going to be as good as home due to the nature of the environment", then the other half of me wants to have as good a system as possible.


Any advice? Have you experienced the same dilemma and if so what did you do? Would you do the same again?


Thanks all.

A pet peeve of mine is when you do something and know that it could have been better. I personally would build my own system (and have several times). However you have to ask yourself, are you spending money on brands or on actual good sound? Brands go old pretty quickly. But if your system sounds good, it will keep you happy a lot longer.


I would look at specs. What can a system do? What is the signal to noise ratio? What is the frequency response? Do they provide time alignment or phase correction? Ignore the brand names and look for performance. IMO, $20,000 US or Canadian is asinine to spend on an audio system for a car as small as a BRZ. Maybe a competition SPL machine but not for a small car that barely gets driven a few times per week. Buy the system that is not going to have you regretting that you could have done better, or regretting that you spent too much.

Holy shit batman.
Sly is right spending that much money on audio is insane.

I keep hearing the word "build" as its some PC desktop or some mmo character. It's not.

First of all how much driving are you doing?
Second OEM+ audio is not as great as it sounds. Your just paying the custom setup and plug and play install. That alone to me is where your money is spent. Pretty good deal if you don't know jack about car audio install.
Thrid, do you really want to spend that much?

In the end it's going to be up to your wallet and your ears.
My advice go to some car meets ask what people have in their rides and listen to them. You'll be surprised with just how inexpensive small upgrades will sound over stock.

Just because a set of speakers are a grand a pop doesn't mean it's going to sound great in your car.
It's like buying race slicks and putting them on a 100% bone stock car.
Will it feel better, go faster? Oh yeah it would, but you'll only be getting 10% of its true potential. Then again if all you do is daily drive, what is the point?

If your just spending money to spend money, remember no one is going to see your set up. Unless you build it to show off.... I mean have it custom made.

It's all in the crossover / environment management.

You can always spend more money, but that does not guarantee anything at all in the results. There are super expensive drivers I won't touch, and some very well priced parts that sound amazing (especially well implemented.)

If it was me, and I wanted to spend money, I'll start off with a way better head unit. Even the new one 2016 are utter dog shit.

A good aftermarket one will have all the bells and whistles and more than the stock head unit has. And let's not forget way better audio controls and mofo'ing eq 's and pre amps!

Then some nice $200 components (insert any brand here) with the full sound dampening. I already have the amp and sub. That would be way more pleasant than stock.

Then again I am driving a mofo'ing cheap sports car not a 7 series bmw.
So eh...

If you really want to spend money, get a good processor. The focal utopia's and mosconi amps aren't going to sound good anyways without proper processing. I would look towards the alpine h800. Yes, there are others on the market, but it's the only one I've seen to be absolutely bullet proof. I've seen problems with every other processor out there, especially the audison units.

After that, you pick speakers based on frequency response and output needs, and amps based on output needs and noise floor.

For sound deadening, refer to my testing thread that will hopefully be stickied at some point. Sound deadening is not where you want to be cheap, but that doesn't mean expensive is better either. The thread says it all with actual testing.

Sgh...im just across the pond on van isle.....$4/5 k cdn...is good enuff in the small car...I have subs,focal speakers,audison,alpine head unit,alarm $3500..it thunders in my f350.....ill do same in my frs....only diff is double din to single.....

I would agree on that price range. Unless you get really serious into it, $3500 is plenty for an excellent sounding system.

OEM audio plus sounds as good as my $15k home theatre.

You'd be stupid to spend more.

Seriously??....oem sounds better than your $15k home unit??.......

There's now way oem+ should sound better than a 15k home system. I don't mean any offense by that, but a car is one of the most difficult places to build a high end system. If a home system costing 5x as much doesn't sound better, it's either not set up right, or something is flawed with it. Again, not trying to offend, that's just my experience with home and car audio.

For example, my last car audio system cost me $5000, and I didn't pay a dime for labor, except $20 to get my concrete/fiberglass/steel kick panels carpeted. That system was good enough to be compete for state in modex class sound quality. My home system on the other hand is just over half that, at about $2800. That includes 1k for a budget turntable. And my home system sounds night and day better than my car did. My car got louder and had more visceral impact, but it couldn't compete with the home system in terms of clarity and imaging.

:lol::laughabove:
Really? Pics of your home theater.
I hope to god it's not a Bose set up LOL.

It's a klipsch thx ultra 2 and a denon avr.

It can go a lot louder than the OEM audio plus, but unless you've got supersonic hearing, are parked in a sound deadened room and have the engine off, you wouldn't pick the difference.

No photos, it's in the cupboard prepping to be sold. I moved and I no longer have a HT room

I could also be full of shit :)

I worked in a sound studio as a recording engineer. It generally takes a pretty good system to impress me.... But probably not as much as you crazy audiophiles.

I'm not a fan of super loud, so if that's your goal by all means, spend the cost of the car on the audio. Having money to burn is a beautiful thing.

I can't really believe oem has a fuller,deeper,warm sound that your set up........oem provides a class a product like denon and klisph??

See if you can find a demo unit somewhere. I'm wrapped. I'd buy this unit again.

Let your ears judge, not your cheque book :)

And yet a $300 set up would sound just as good if not better than OEM+. As I said on the first post your paying for the custom look, and plug and play install.
It's great if you don't know jack about car audio install. But for those that know what a positive lead to an amp is, it's not even on the radar.

Oh ok.

I did demo a set of amped up morels with and without a sub before I chose the OEM+ unit. Not a super high end system, but close in cost to the OEM kit. Did not sound as good - specifically mid to high range.

But since you have heard the OEM+ system and know $300 can do a better job... Why not start a super profitable business?

No need to. that $300 is combined from just off the shelf amp, sub, and box form any online or audio store retailer. The savings are you do the install yourself, cutting wires, taping into the factory amp, running power cables, looking for a good amp mounting location, etc. Its like doing your own oil change. If you know what your doing and have the tools its fast and simple.

The whole point of OEM Audio + is their factory looking plug and play install. Thats what your paying them for.

What did you think of the OEM+ system after hearing it?

From experiencing the system, I think you're dreaming if you think the price tag is because they have a moulded box, and preloomed/cut cables. Sure, that might be some of the cost, but you're discounting what it actually sounds like, what the DSP does, how it's calibrated to the car acoustics.

My sound guy, who has 25 years experience with car audio install was impressed by the audio. After hearing it blind, he asked me about the system, and thought the price was good.

This is not at all correct. You couldn't even buy a cheap dsp and amp for $300, which would be ABSOLUTELY NESSESARY to beat the sound of the oem+. The "magic" of oem+ is not the plug and play install, it's the dsp tuning.

Isn't one of the big selling points of the OEM Audio + is that it is tuned with the OEM headunit for "seamless" integration. I'm not sure if switching out the headunit would be a good idea with that system.

The biggest reason for me to switch out the head unit is to get nav.


Thank you for all the comments so far everyone. I don't think I'm any closer to making a decision, other than likely not doing the Utopia / Mosconi combo unless I can find a screaming good deal on the components.


I suppose if I did go OEM+ and I wasn't happy with it I could just pull it out and sell it off even at a loss.


Edit: Oh and the OEM+ can be ordered specifically for different head units including the 8100/8200, so the seamless part is still there for the different head units.

Definitely not trying to knock your hearing or experience. I just have a hard time with the idea someone saying that oem+ would be indistinguishable from the home system. The decay time alone in a vehicle it huge compared to an actual room. Keep in mind I'm saying that based on my references, which are;

My home set up which uses a pair of $130 a piece andy Jones designed pioneer towers, a few subs to distribute room modes, and a onkyo avr. The weakest link in my home system is the lack of manual processing power.

A pair of 90's era Kef Q500's, powered by a crown amp.

A rediculous demo room using mark levinson monoblocks, a $20k pair of towers, and two 10k subwoofers.


Vs

My car, which cost me 5k to build, in terms of pure sound quality, every setup above beat it out. I would place my car as above the level of the oem+ system.

Through competition I've had the chance to hear some of the best cars in the country. The cars that can beat out my home system, cost generally 8k plus and are placed in the extreme class due to the modifications done to get that kind of sound. I would only put the top 3-4 cars in the country as sounding better than that sound room I demoed.

You mean the Digital Sound Processor. Yeah I read the brochure too.
Call me Sussie but 90% of all amps from 2000 have DSP. The level and quality goes up depending on price/brand, bla bla bla.Then again it's could be marketing lingo. One companies DSP could be a better form of the line in converters.

I'm still sticking to their price is about pnp. And being the first in the market with custom enclosure.

I would first start with a better head unit and sub, than jump in with expensive components.

Then again if you just want to listen to Pandora or streaming music while driving, this whole thread is worthless.

No, no streaming / Pandora. I was going to do FLAC / other lossless on SSD or USB. In the pricier builds I would put a couple of docks in the trunk for SSD drives. In the OEM+ build I would just do flash drive.

Your way off base. An adjustable crossover and bass boost is not real dsp.

The oem+ uses active crossovers, time alignment, and multiple bands of parametric eq per channel. Car audio amps have barely started including time alignment in the last couple years, and even then it's only a handful. And not one that I know of has parametric eq.

You keep focusing on the amp and speakers, but it's processing and tune that matter. This is what separates a real sound quality from a basic set up.

I'm not sure why the OEM+ distaste. He obviously hasn't heard the system.

Good luck finding a review of it less than 5/5 stars. I did my research and couldn't find a single negative.

As I said earlier, I'm accustomed to good sound and equipment costing a lot more... And I'm still impressed.

He just doesn't know what he's talking about.

Good luck OP. :). You know my recommendation.

Something to keep in mind about processing power and sound in a car.

The car itself has more of an effect on the sound that the soeakers, amp, or head unit. This means the best speakers in the world are still going to need processing in the form if eq. Especially when the speakers are in the doors, off axis.

We sit off center in a car. This means we need time alignment to fix the offset. The human ear can tell a time delay difference of 0.2 milliseconds. I didn't believe it either, until I got the chance to install a head unit that had real time adjustment capabilities of time alignment.

Without both of these capabilities, a car can never have more than mediocre sound. This is why the oem+ system sounds good. They use those tools to correct the sound for the environment.

Now...im interested in the pursuit of happiness at that pricepoint on the full meal deal they have.....ive researched the product and only negative is more wattage.....on that price,about $2100 canadian...for amp,sub box and front dash,door and rear speakers.....i can live with and I dont want to spend more these days...kinda itchin a gibson les paul.....for $5k...I can get the oem product,new head unit and.....the gibson!!!.....fml...I just sold myself on it.....and the $300 set up,really??...kraco??

Well here's my beef(if any, I still think OEM audio+ is a great product) the size of their system vs. every aftermarket amps and DSP out there. It's pretty small.
Not that it's a bad thing but I'm used to the industry standard so to speak. Don't get me wrong, it's still a 110% better than stock. In my case could do it for less with the same result.

Then again, is their DSP user adjustable? Or has it been preset? I would love to spend a full day with an OEM Audio + on the road.

As much as I want to beat a dead horse about sound adjustments and time delays, here's the bottom line: it's an audio system in a "cheap" sports car. The moment you turn it on and drive it on the street, all that adjustment to sound go out the window literally.

Now if where where talking about an audio system on a 7 series BMW yeah I'll be all in for fine audio control. But we are not. We have to worry about body panels rattling with the OEM stereo.

But it doesn't go out the window. Time alignment is useful whether parked or driving. So is eq.

My last build was in a cheap economy car. 98 dodge neon. I had 0.8ms of delay between the left and right midrange, and I had relocated my seats further back and used kick panels to minimize path length differences. That 0.8ms of delay was dead obvious whether driving or parked. I had 5ms of delay between the driver side midrange and the subwoofer. It took 5ms to get the subwoofer to sound like it was in the front, and not coming from behind me. Again, that didn't change whether parked or driving. I had different eq settings for the left and right side, to compensate again for sitting off center. Also noticeable whether parked or driving.


The bottom line is, dsp is NESSESARY when building a sound quality system, no matter what car, no matter what amps, no matter what speakers, no matter what install.

I have to agree that time alignment is absolutely necessary in a car. In a home theater, moving 3 feet makes a relatively small angular change. But in a car, moving three feet has a huge impact on speaker dispersion and time alignment.

In my WRX I built a custom DSP that provides time alignment, minimum phase EQ and FIR filtering. Think of time alignment as focusing a lens on a camera. Can you hear 0.8ms? No. But try being 0.8ms off compared to being dead on. Accurate time alignment makes the speaker locations disappear. Your ear detects slight alterations in time to give the perception of location and depth. If your speakers are not aligned properly, you will always know where the sound is coming from. Considering a car never puts the speakers in the ideal location, some of the sound will be coming from in front of you and some from behind. If you time align them, you put them all in the same plane. It no longer matters where the speakers are located. As long as the highs and tweeters are properly positioned, the rest will fall in line.

I have a 5 way system with all the speakers located in the factory positions except for 2 stereo underseat mid-bass modules and a trunk mounted sub. Even with the low mids mounted in the rear doors of the WRX behind me, they sound as if coming from the front. Even the trunk mounted sub hits from in front and not behind.

In a home theater you can place your speakers ideally. If you get comb filtering of the highs, you can place curtains around the room to improve the imaging. The speakers are spread far apart and moving slightly makes little difference in the angle of approach. But in a car, none of this is possible. You can't position all of the speakers in the perfect spot. If you could they would all be outside the car at a 60 degrees apart. You can't hang curtains on your windshield to block reflections and moving slightly changes the imaging drastically. That's why you need digital signal processing and preferably with different user profiles. Since you can't fix many problems mechanically, you have to fix them digitally. No $10,000 speaker in a car is ever going to sound as good as a home theater without using DSP. The problem is not the speakers, it's the car.

I'm sure the OEM audio is a fine system. But it's plug and play. You can't tweak the DSP as far as I know. The listening position is preset, the EQ is preset with a house curve for the person who tuned it and I'm sure there are no linear phase crossovers. To me, it's a vast improvement over what the FR-S/BRZ came with but would in no way be a competition system. You can definitely build more with less money. However unless you want to become a sound engineer and spend hours tuning, OEM is probably the way to go.

^Absolutely agreed with everything above.

I judge sound quality for MECA, and one of our jobs is to ask the competitors to position us exactly where they want us to judge from, because even a couple of inches can make the difference between a good score and a bad one.

Just an update to a very old thread.

I ended up going with the OEM+ system after shelving the entire project for a long period of time.

I went with the Reference 450Q with the optional rears. Overall I'm a bit "meh" about it and not sure I would do it again. I'll post my longer review on the OEM+ review thread.

I'm going to take my own direction here:

Sony XAV-AX100 CarPlay/AA - $350
Peerless 6.5" Woofers - $55 off a friend
Dayton Audio 4" Mids - $60
Peerless 1" Silk Dome Tweeters - $60
MiniDSP C-DSP 6x8 - $300
Rockford Fosgate 4080DSM - $175
Rockford Fosgate 40ix DSM - $95
AudioQuest RCAs and Speaker Wire - $100
Second Skin Dampener - $TBA

This system is ~$1200 before I factor in sound dampener. It will have fully active six channel DSP and time alignment- I'll weigh in once it's done. I'm hoping to blow the OEM+ systems out of the water, but we'll see.