My review of the FRS (RW Steer discussion)
 

TL;DR Underpowered with good handling but artificially enhanced.

Started my trip off right talking with the sales guy, turns out he is a collector to, 7 under his belt. I didn't give much hint about what I knew besides when he asked what I owned. I asked what rev limit to keep it under, he said he didn't think I would hurt it if I maxed it a couple times. He mentioned sport buttons and whatever shift times, which I ignored as I turned everything off. I noticed the steering wheel was way to thick, and I have big hands.

Just leaving the lot, it was apparent that the low down torque was closer to the 2.5 than the 2 liter, and the ride quality was very smooth. The auto trans shifted smoothly and authoritatively. The first couple turns through the lot I noticed something extremely familiar, which I would soon find myself in a big argument with the sales guy about...

Heading to Realto, after I let it warm up, I flicked off the AC and told Lisa, Here we go. I pinned the throttle from a crawl, the trans dutifully jumped to first and as the revs climbed, I waited for that VTEC moment. When the first shift hit right at the redline, I looked at Lisa and she said, "Really, thats it?" Nuff said. This thing doesn't have enough power to rotate the rear, and barely enough to shift the weight around.

Back to the steering. The electric steering was quite apparent but same as what I was used to. Weight was fine, I'm just concerned with how the car handles itself with what grip it has. The trait this car shares with its donor as fault of the suspension is the passive rear wheel steer. This trait is noticeable more in some cars (Impulse RS) and not as much in others, but its a trait Subaru builds into its suspension geometry. The magical reactive steering that you hear people talk about with this car, its because it has a high amount of rear wheel steer. In short: as the suspension compresses, the tire toe changes, inducing a bit of extra yaw. This effect helps make the car feel like its pivoting around its center, but has its limits. Its great for AWD because it helps relieve some of the strain put on the fronts under power. In the FRS, the effect is so strong you feel it on the smallest of inputs.

Here is why it is bad: the limits of passive rear steer. The rears only give you so much free yaw, and as you load and unload the rears it gives and taketh away. This makes for very unpredictable for-aft swapping of grip, keeping you about even understeer and oversteer.

Of course you can learn to deal with it, but I personally don't like it. I prefer to manage yaw myself with for-aft balance and the throttle. Its a trait of a RWD car that I think makes it unique. Taking it from the AWD Subie land and forcing it upon a RWD platform doesn't fit in my opinion.

On the flip side, I think this would be a great car for the beginner to RWD. You can have a bit of yaw inducing fun without actually having to do it yourself.

For an experienced driver, this car would need several mods out the door to provide the complete sports car experience you can get from other brands.

Good try Subaru engineers. I'll stop by again with high hopes next revision. After stepping out of the FRS, I stepped into my S and had a properly fun 2 hour drive with less tire grip (all four tires balding). After Lisa listened to the sales guy blab on about how great the FRS handled, she said I should offer him a ride in mine to see what he's missing.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUJXtk1CPps"]FRS on Rialto - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtMTDg4RkwE"]Rialto Road, West Chester Ohio - YouTube[/ame]

You say that you can't get the rear to rotate, did you have have traction control on? The way Toyota and Subaru programmed the rear doesn't want to step out, but with it off it will rotate with ease.

People drive the automatic on granny mode and complain there isn't any power...nothing to see here, move along folks...

In other news, the grass is green and the sky is blue

The S2000 has passive rear steering. In fact, almost every car has passive rear steering. It's not just a Subaru feature, or for AWD cars.

Good try though. I'll stop by again with high hopes next revision.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET2hsLLnibI"]amazing car crash - YouTube[/ame]

End of story, you've waisted your's and our's time.

You turned off traction control but left AT in city-driving mode. Once in a while, listen to others: AT in SPORT and shifter to MANUAL. Then come back here and tell us something new, collector.

Seems like everyone that posts "slow" was driving the AT...

I saw that OP had an s2000 and when he mentioned waiting for VTEC to kick in all I could think about was that Johnny Tran picture from the Fast and the Furious :lol:

Found it...

http://honda-tech.com/attachment.php...1&d=1244238009

Seems that everyone who posted 'slow' were either coming from far more capable cars or don't know how to read the manual.

Summertime drop top!

I was just thinking about that.

In fact, let's borrow that video:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMf729n5avk"]Asian 350Z Bashing my FR-S/86 - YouTube[/ame]

True. But I still say it is not that slow. A brand new Audi A4 does 0-60 only slightly faster, and that car starts at 32k. People just need to keep their expectations in line. It's a 25,000 dollar car, not the second coming of Jesus.

lol passive rear steer, thats some good armchair suspension engineering you've got going on there OP. As a professional driver and master suspension engineer yourself, Im sure you can coach Subaru and Toyota in redesigning the suspension to your specifications.

http://i582.photobucket.com/albums/s...r/lol-face.gif

Its fine. Let's not bash another's opinion because it doesn't match ours

Everyone is different in various ways. That's why people have DIFFERENT cars rather than a monospec version. Only true review is the one YOU DO on your own and think, how does this feel to ME?

Plenty of happy FRS/BRZ members tearing tracks/AutoX up. Also the most demanded car in Japan right now, so get what ya'll want!

Thanks for your review! Weird the Twins weigh less and they have solid roofs (was just looking around)

Didn't you see the videos he posted? His evidence is irrefutable. I'm trying to find an S2000 right now because it doesn't have artificially enhanced handling.

LOL hillarious...that guys sounds like Khan from king of the hill hahaha awesomeness

Maybe it's because I'm not very good at subtle hints of a car's handling from the outside, but I saw literally nothing in those videos. Only difference was that the S2K was recorded much more dynamically than the FR-S. Oh and all of the tire squeal from the S.

Using balding tires may be more "fun" but it certainly isn't appropriate for true driving. I have never heard of using spent tires anything other than for Drift beginners who need help sliding a car.

Nobody here has a problem with negative opinions, just a problem with uneducated ones. They didn't set the car for the best drive possible and then come here to bash on it.

It's one thing to throw around words like yaw and vtec and try to teach car buffs. But it's quite another when you open a forum thread with such arrogance and ****iness. You must be a professional race car driver. Probably not though. Good try though maybe next years revisions.

Wow, I didn't know this forum turned into such haters. Pretty much all of your childish callouts are false, such as the trans was in sport.

I'll just leave now.

As I understand it, the GR Impreza rear suspension, which looks very similar to the BRZ/FRS (and shares components with), will actually toe-IN with articulation (bump and droop). This would actually have the opposite effect of what you're describing.

Considering I was able to hang the tail of BRZ out around a long left-hand sweeper at an AutoX yesterday without using the e-brake, I have to wonder about the OP's declaration that it can't get the tail out.

Hell, considering all the video evidence of this car drifting, I again wonder about his assertion that it can't drift. I think the issue might be the wingnut behind the wheel, not the chassis.

I noticed OP mentioned he used to own a ae86, but now currently drives a '01 s2k. I currently own a '85 corolla gt-s and a MY06 S2K and between the two cars I could also make the argument that the corolla "cannot get the rear out"... That is if I'm relying on using only the gas pedal to swing out the rear with extra power. I've noticed over the past 5-6 years of driving both my old sprinter and the s2k that the S2K is considerably easier to do a power slide with (read: power + gas pedal = rear begins to slide mid-turn), but not as easy to get the corolla's rear swinging without proper steering input + speed + braking (whatever combo is required for the upcoming turn/drift). I get the feeling that the BRZ/FRS is similar to the corolla; enter a little hotter, little later breaking, little more gradual weight shift, little more precision steering, foot on gas a little earlier at higher revs. I believe this neat guy name Tsuchiya once mentioned everyone is moving to higher powered cars because they're easier to initiate a drift and maintain it... (insert sarcasm)

While I haven't had the opportunity to test drive a brz/frs (L.A. subie dealers are so anal with their 3-5k markups and not letting people test drive :(.. and FRS are getting sold as soon as they hit the bloody dealers!!) it seems like the driver's inputs are much more crucial for this car compared to just using the gas pedal to turn...

Though I would like to comment that manual BRZ/FRS will be easier to turn with gas pedal due to shorter gearing ratios, though I am inclined to believe that difference is rather negligible.

Well, dyno test already showed that the auto gets about 10 less HP and about 5-7 less torque than the manual. I've been able to get the tail out whenever I remember to turn off traction control stuff lol. Also, how is the steering wheel too thick o.0? I have fairly average hands and it's perfectly fine for me and my wife.

Anybody have a rear toe-curve for this car yet?

As an AP1 owner, that's my only major criticism of that car's suspension. Big changes in rear toe with bump is and always been a gimmick that doesn't work. It makes the AP1's handling a little weird and non-linear. Drive-aroundable, but not ideal, and of course it's caught countless uninitiated drivers out.

I believe the AP1 would gain something like 1/8" toe per inch of travel (that's HUGE!). I would hope that the FR-S/BRZ rear toe is much more stable/consistent throughout uppie/downie travel.

Using same components vs. other cars doesn't say anything. AP2 used the same suspension components but relocated the toe-arm pivot location on the chassis to minimize toe change with bump.

Again, anybody have a rear toe curve yet?

No need to bash the OP of his remarks, his entitled to his opinion.

OP, when people spend a hard earned 40k on a car they really don't want to see this kind of feedback, its something they wont want to hear or even consider... I dont know what you would have expected from the people on this forum.

For your information, I took the manual for a test drive and had the rear end out without any problems. Of-course I wouldn't do this in an auto.

I watched your video of you driving the S2000, I am not sure if your trying to show off but just to let you know:

Your at constant high revs, your car makes a lot of "sound", if you actually put headphones in you would realize that your car isn't actually performing that well. How do I know this? because I thought the same way... I always use to have my car in low gears/high revs.

For an experienced driver, this car would need several mods out the door to provide the complete sports car experience you can get from other brands.

Your not an experienced driver and your no where close to one - seriously an auto.... I never knew why people actually bagged the crap out of Honda owners, you my friend just explained that to me. Dont get me wrong I love Honda S2000's and its probably the only Honda out that I actually like.

For your information I bought this car as a daily (GTS86 in Australia), I dont expect it to be a supercar for the price or to have Ferrari's engineering, however it has some great features and the sporty feel to it that suits me. Just the same way that you Honda suits you.

Peace out!
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l6...hhxwo1_250.gif

P.S. try a manual BRZ next time, you may like it more. The pro drivers do!

Somehow, I was reminded of the "I drive flat out" video...

I'm also noticing a trend that the "geared for fuel economy" auto trans doesn't have the grunt of the manual. I have no issue moving the rear end around on my manual BRZ, even with the nannies on. It still allows for some wheel slip.

I guess your car wasn't an S2000 (or FR-S/BRZ for that matter).
These cars make peak power very near the rev-limiter. If you aren't revving the bejeezus out of them, you aren't putting as much power down and are giving up speed/time.

This isn't true for some cars. Maybe yours is a MazdaSpeed3?

Don't assume that what works or doesn't work for your car applies to others!

FR-S BRZ you're going to want to keep around 6k RPM, if you dip below 4k you're going to hit the torque dip and then you really won't be able to spin the tires.

I stopped reading after this part... haha. V-TeC never kicked in bro! :D

How is rear steer a cheap way to get rotation? Isn't that how early Porsche 911s were set up, which is why they are known for their snap oversteer? Without having the engine behind the rear axle I don't see any way it would become unpredictable in turns, unless you are driving over rocks.

As for your power comments, try driving the manual. A manual BRZ and an s2000 both do the 1/4 mile in just under 15 seconds so you will probably not be as disappointed with its performance. Actually, you still will be because you sound like a moron, but it's worth a shot. I get the feeling from your comment that you have read a few too many magazine articles. Your glamour vid reminds me of the old fat guy in Napoleon Dynamite filming himself throwing a football to show everyone how awesome he is. Wow, you can take turns at 35mph. Cool story, bro.

I didn't understand much of what you wrote OP. Guess I'm not as big of a gearhead as some folks.

I traded an 02 S for my FR-S, and four weeks into it, I have not regretted one bit. I love the S, and yes, the VTEC-Yo was fun, but was a pain daily driving it for other reasons. The S2000 is a fantastic machine, but just wasn't for me anymore.

The S2k would toe out under bump though, correct? That seems to be what the OP is assuming the BRZ does, but it should do just the opposite.

I haven't seen a toe curve, but Kojima's writeup from a while back noted:
I haven't looked under the car in person but in photos is still seems the rear toe link is quite a bit shorter than the other lateral links, which seems consistent.

I'm sure it's also nice to have a hard-top in MN too!

No, AP1 S2000 rears toe IN under bump, following similar mistakes (I think...) made with the FC RX-7, original NSX geometry, and the first 2nd-gen MR2's.

The idea is that if you toe the outside rear IN as the car enters a corner, it will reduce oversteer, making it safer for noobs.

But it doesn't work, has NEVER worked! It actually makes cars less stable at the worst possible moment, and has put many a noob into the weeds.

The problem is that if the back end gets a little squirrelly, and the uninitiated driver does what comes naturally and abruptly lifts off the gas, the outside rear then toes relatively OUTward. So his noob mistake of lifting gives him the usual extra dose of oversteer from unloading the rear tires, PLUS another big dose of oversteer as the outside rear toe changes.

Mucho better-o for experienced drivers and noobs to have the rear toe remain somewhat consistent through range of travel.

Gimmicky rear toe shenanigans are just not good for anything as far as I'm concerned.

At the track, for max speed/min lap times, you're going to want to keep it around peak power rpm, 7000. To do this you'll have to wind it out well past 7000 in order to keep from being too far down on the power curve when you upshift.

Don't understand why you would want to be able to spin the rear tires. You want to maximize forward thrust, so keeping it just at incipient wheelspin. Not that wheelspin is going to be an issue for a well-driven FR-S/BRZ...

He was talking about taking it sideways. Someone else was mentioning he was keeping his S2000 at high revs. Similar or the same to the FR-S/BRZ you're going to have to stay very high in RPMs to get the most out of it. That's what my comment was about.

This sounds like a case of the Monda.... I mean, use of an auto tranny for spirited driving. The auto is significantly slower with its longer gears.

OP, find a friend or dealer with a MT frs. Should be much more enjoyable. Especially coming from an S2000.

so you even know how to drive?