Performance Cars - Are we going too far?
 

http://www.speedhunters.com/2016/03/...ars-going-far/

This is a great article and i agree with all the points. Thought i would share for anybody who doesn't visit speedhunters.

I've been saying this for a while now, but so many people are caught up in the numbers game and it's true that most of the new cars are disconnected from the driver.
Look at the new NSX for example...it's in no way what the old NSX was about. It's just this computer programmed car that makes you feel like a pro on the track.

Anyways, most people don't even track so I don't understand this focus on track oritented cars. They just do it so people can say there car did this time on the nur.

This is exactly why i love our cars. They are so raw compared to the newer cars today which lack feel and a lot of times are over powered. Also we can enjoy our cars to the full potential.

Anyways, i love our cars and i hope these types of cars stay popular and get more popular in the future.

My last comment,
My 2002 stage 2 wrx had around 300hp and i could barely enjoy it. I could never take it to it's full potential, so i don't understand how people enjoy these 400+ luxury sedans and sports cars unless they go to the track every weekend.

simple.. They don't. It's all about bragging rights

If you have never had a car with a lot of horsepower..... it is something you can easily enjoy everyday. Especially with the tuning available for most vehicles they can generally be made to drive stockish normally and then be on point when you hammer it. All depends, but you can have a "civil" racecar that is streetable. A stock Z06 is a great example of that.

I like the comment made by a reader that there are 2 types of performance cars, ones that you drive to their limit and then over drive them, and ones that you drive to your limit (supercars) but not the cars limit.

Aside from affordability, I am sure it is a lot safer driving the former.

Now, if track time (time attack style for example) was more affordable at a reasonably local venue. Got a taste of it last year and want more. Don't want to spend $600 on a driving course though (flamethrower suit on).

tl;dr: I agree.



This article and your quote almost brought a tear to my eye because they were so spot-on. Articles about self-parking, self-driving, self-braking, self-masturbating cars make me cringe. I legitimately fear seeing what cars will be like in 20, 30, and 40 years because the two aspects behind cars today, the driver and the car itself, will be completely secluded from each other.



I agree with this point 100% as well. I owned an automatic Honda Fit for eight years (it was my first car and I had it through high school and college). I made the switch to my BRZ because of aftermarket availability, overall appearance, and, of course, its performance out of the box. I have no track or performance-driving experience and I want this car to help me transition into that world. Going to a brand new, manual BRZ from an automatic eco-car with 109hp at the crank is a life-changing step and I absolutely love my car for this reason. I feel like I'm driving it and I hope that manufacturers do not completely abandon this crucial aspect in the coming decades.

to much text for me.



Because racecar. is my answer for whatever we are talking about

Some people I know are obsessed with performance numbers (0-60, skidpad, etc.) when buying cars and yet never go to the track. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I guess there are the bragging rights and "wow" factor that goes into owning those sorts of cars.

There's also the question of whether expensive track cars (Nismo GT-R, Exige, even a Z06 and Viper) make sense except to one-percenters. One of my friends bought a new $200k GT3RS intending to track it, then promptly sold it on arrival once he realized the risk in tracking such an expensive car. You really have to be massively wealthy to buy a new expensive car to use on the track.

These are some of the reasons I bought an FR-S. Its handling is great for weekend track use and it's cheap in terms of consumables (cheapest lightweight RWD coupe on sale today), yet it's low-powered enough that you can redline multiple gears on your way to work during the week.

Absolutely agree with the writer

It's the reason I will never sell my families 9-3 Viggen. Theres a laundry list of cars now a days that are faster, handle better, brake better than it. But I've yet to find a person that doesn't giggle or laugh when they ride shot gun and you drop it into 3rd gear and press the loud pedal, all while inhaling tire smoke...... and then look at me in amazement when they realize it's a 16 year old car

It's the reason I'd pick a E30 M3 over a M4, or an air-cooled 993 Turbo over a 991 Turbo S... there is something beautiful about simplicity and cars aimed to simply bring out the inner 10 year old in you by having that extra bit of lunacy or pre-built flaw for the shits and giggles

Hence why I want a GT86.... there simple, good, old school fun... and at the end of the day, isn't that why we love cars?

IMO, whether we like it or not, "pure" and driver oriented performance cars are a dying breed. Eventually, cars will be so advanced that everyone can drive like a pro. Not exactly a bad thing isn't it?

It'll make good drivers a thing of the past... Pretty soon it'll make drivers a thing of the past and have the car do it all.

Imagine, anyone can just get in the driver seat, buckle up, pick what mode and how fast you wanted and enjoy lol

Like Mistersheep said.... the end of "good drivers" is coming slowly coming to reality, cars are taking the driving element out of driving.

Sure for the average joe it's a great thing but for the 1% of us who genuinely appreciate performance or the art of driving in itself... It's a bad thing lol

You can hit the track for much less than $600 in Southern Ontario!

Trying to look into future of where car manufacturers want to be scares me.... I'm all for more safety, but if the endgame is to take the driver out of the equation, then as an enthusiast and a person that takes driving seriously, I hope it never comes to that point.

I feel like with all the fancy auto-braking and auto-accident avoidance, etc they are currently putting in, every time it has to intervene there should be some way to add points to your license...

ie. Fifth Element style... (robot voice) "Auto braking engaged... accident avoided... 2 points have been added to your licence.... you have 10 points remaining until suspension.... have a nice day"

A lot of track day events require to get a certificate which is often in that price range.

I am probably a little more knowledgeable that the average Joe off the street so I'd rather just do open track days.

Boils down to bench racing at the pub.
Avoid.

I absolutely love when people bitch and moan about cars that they will never or could ever own. Like Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren, Porsche, Mercedes, etc even give a fuck what you have to say if you can't pony up the cash to buy the cars that they're making.

If a self driving car is what it takes for me to be able to set my cruise at a reasonable speed, not hit stop and go during my commute and not have to worry about the fucking lady beside me who is spending more time with her eyes and both hands on her phone is thinking, I'm all for the self driving car.

Edit: Also, what the fuck are you doing on the street that lets you even max out the twins performance capabilities? Sounds pretty illegal to me.

Oh this brings memories. I remember that feeling when i bought my stock 02 wrx with 227hp. I was driving a 99 Nissan Quest van at that time and when i bought the Subaru i felt like i stepped into a rocket ship haha.

By the way, Honda Fit is like my dream daily car! I really want one, i love the way you had yours done up! Looked awesome! I live in a congested city, so small cars that are amazing on gas and easy to maneuver just make a lot of sense here. Plus i just love Kei cars, which are not available so the next best thing is sub-compact :D

Thank you, that means a lot! I loved that Fit to death but it was time for a change.

Not interested in 'performance cars' interested in what used to be called a sports car: affordable, lightweight, & fun. Horsepower is cheap, quality chassis and suspension isn't. Let BMW, Porsche, Mclaren & Ferrari play with their magazine reviewers and 0.1% buyers, idgaf, they're not getting my money. This isn't politics where I have to vote for the lesser of two evils, instead of bitching about how heavy and numb the M3/M4 is the enthusiast who actually cares about the things in the article will maintain his E30/E36, maybe go out and buy a Fiesta ST or Miata. Auto manufacturers make what gets them profit, the cars we care about simply aren't terribly profitable.

The 86 prompted a lot of hype, a lot of automakers saying to journo's "Oh maybe we'll do that too!" but it didn't outsell the mustang/camaro/challenger, and it was never going to. Mazda will keep doing what it does, other automakers may experiment to profit off of pent up demand (See Focus RS filling the gap the EVO/STI have left behind) but ultimately we keep putting our money where our mouths are.

Maybe we'll get a few S660's or SFR's, maybe Tesla's new Model 3 will deliver some Mazdaspeed3-like performance and practicality, maybe the Focus RS will outperform targets and will be a model that's here to stay, maybe Alfa Romeo delivers on the Giulia to cheers of praise and a large slice of market share. Those are the things I care about in the near future, let the armchair quarterbacks bitch about the GTR refresh or C7 overheating issues, idgaf, there's plenty of fun cars out there to tinker with and autocross and track and there will be for a very long time. It's always been that way and it's not going to change because now the M3 is 3,500 lbs instead of the 3,200 lbs it was 20 years ago.

Amen

Only someone that has never had a high horsepower car would say this.

I used to be one of you.

This past 5 days on my road trip, in a rented vehicle, I had never wanted my horsepower back so badly.

Passing, acceleration, going up hills, shifting, etc...... are all everyday benefits you enjoy in a high powered car that do not require going to the track.

I know you are going to argue with me but I owned an FRS. It was great and could accomplish much of what my Vette can do, it just did not do it nearly as easily and effortlessly as the Vette.

Its highly enjoyable not having to shift out of 6th or 7th to pass someone or climb a hill.

Its nice to know that if a douchebag wants to try and cut me off 99% of the time he cannot do it.

So yeah I enjoy and use that 460hp everyday not going to the track.

Whats even more sad? My Vette gets 28-30 mpg on the highway (the same as my FRS just about, and I dont even use the ECO mode that does cylinder deactivation). Actually tested and verified that last month on a trip to Austin and back.

So the benefits consist of not having to downshift and being able to prevent people from merging in front of you? I try to pull in front of somebody and they speed up to close the gap I know who the real douche is.
I could not possibly make proper use out of 460hp in my day to day driving about 99.98% of the time.
I know you are not a jerk (or weren't) but it was established a long time ago that not everybody on the road wants or needs high HP to have fun with their car.

I'm not saying you need to have high horsepower to have fun, I know you dont as I had fun in my FR-S.

But my point is to the OP posing the question are we going to far.

Just because you (or another person) does not want/need the high horsepower does not mean its going to far or useless.

Different strokes for different folks. :party0030:

As for the "merge" its easy to generalize my statement and think that trying to keep people from merging is being an asshole but I can tell you there are hundreds of scenarios that does not apply to.

There are quite a few times where the asshole is the person "gunning" it trying to force their way into your lane when they should not be.

With ya 100% on all points except the merge thing. If the guy is trying to force his way in it is to late to try and close the gap and just backing off and letting them is the prudent thing to do (as frustrating as that may be).

One thing I truly miss about the "high hp" (over 400) cars I have owned is that when I took a long trip, set it on cruise and it never waivered. Up hills, steady inclines, anything....they would stay around 1200 rpm and just take it effortlessly. Cruising just a little above idle also meant (in my experiences) little to no drone even with the exhausts I had.

Why are you even here if you are going to thrash on the car like that? Had I been you, the minute I bought my C7, these fourms would be historic history, never look back no regrets! It is what I plan to get next and you can bet your ass, the first thing I will do will detach here and attach to a Vette forum, UNLESS I end up keeping the FRS aswell, but I don't see that happening

First and second gear pulls to redline ;) . Pretty sure if my brother did that on his bike, he would break every posted speed limit in the country lol.

You know that straight line speed isn't necessarily the topic here, Dan. If we're talking super car, we're talking speed, grip, etc. And You can still get in plenty of trouble with speed alone, in the FRS. Since first and second gear pulls aren't where the car maxes out. Plus, I'm positive that if a cop saw you take off like a bat out of hell, he wouldn't hesitate to pull you over.

All I'm saying, is that outside of maybe kei cars, there's pretty much no way you can max any modern car on the street, legally of course.

www.corvetteforum.com


Unfortunately most of the people there talk about waxing their vehicles or chrome taillight covers and not actual performance or driving topics....


I visit pretty much every forum I have ever been a member of except dsmtuners, lol.

I'm not thrashing on the FR-S, please dont take my comments like that.

I loved the little car and if it had not been for a HUGE unexpected bonus I'd probably still be driving it today.

Why am I still here?
I like the community
I am still interested in the car
Most importantly, this is a good place to hear FT-1/Supra gossip/news. I am awaiting this fabled unicorn as the second this car becomes real my Vette will be on the "trade in" list. :drool:

If I could thank you more than once, I would 100 times over. I just got a ride in a new Explorer Sport ,and my buddy was proud as can be. He exclaimed he now only puts the car in cruise control and sets the car lengths he wants in front of him, and the car accelerates and brakes automatically and keeps you in your lane without touching pedals or the wheel. I was disgusted. He already sucks as a driver and this won't do him any favors... we keep saying that the driving future looks bleak, but the future is nigh!

I don't think it's a unicorn. The Supra will return I'm pretty sure

my dream car

audi r8 gated manual


:DDD

The article captures my feelings. I hate the new GT-R and people try to convince me I should love it because (insert nurburgring time), but that's not the point. I WANT TO DRIVE THE DAMNED THING! That car does so much of it for you, I don't want it. My 94' R is about as whiz-bang as I'll tolerate and I'd really like to lose the ABS too.

Technology is fine and I would gladly drive a big powerful luxury sedan daily, but when you speak of a sports car I expect the price of admission to be you better know how to drive or it will be very slow or soon punched into a ditch. Seems like the Ford GT40 was the last mass production car that didn't come equipped with a sense of humor. People were winding those up left and right when they came out.

My little BRZ ha a cute little wound up rubber band for an engine, but when I flip off the nanny tech, that car can raise some hell and find its limit. It's exciting and I respect what that little thing can do for a nice price and at speeds that allow me to learn my lesson with some chance of living to apply the new knowledge.

These uber cars will get you so damned deep into it that when it finally crosses the line, your just dead, end of story. You never saw it coming either. Everything was cool then it all comes crashing down. With a real drivers car you will have to work up to those kind of power and speed numbers and will have gotten better along the way.

I'm totally the opposite. My "fast" car is a 6.8 liter ~580hp FD RX-7. I love it, it is a real challenge to extract a decent percentage of its potential at the track :). But I still I LOVE daily driving and road-tripping in my 240hp S2000. On the street, I seldom need to even get into VTEC, so it's essentially a ~150hp 2800 lb. FR sports car, and it's BRILLIANT to drive every day. Except for the wind noise through the single-layer convertible top. That, I am sick of...

I would much rather see more cars like the S2000, Elise, Miata, FR-S/BRZ on the market than the never-ending parade of uber-hyper-megacars. Simple, lightweight, rwd, fun >>> megapower and 1/4-mile and 'ring times for me.

I agree with most of what is being said here but I shall offer my 4 cents worth of opinion for FREE!!

1/ From a marketing pov this year's model has to be "better" than the previous model. One of the most easily comprehended "improvements" is the new model produces x more power than the previous model.
2/ Why do people keep on thinking that a car purchase is a purely rational decision?
3/ Having a better car than the neighbour/peers is important for some people.
4/ Some people like being able to brag that their car can lap that race track in such a such time. (All the while failing to admit that they couldn't replicate such a feat.)
5/ Bigger numbers sell more cars. More power, more legroom, more boot/trunk space, more paint options.
6/ Some people like powerful cars. I don't have an issue with that.

End of free reading. If you want more you will have to pay.

This ^^ all day long!
I always chuckle when I read "Dude get a STi they are waaaaay more practical".
No, a mini van is waaaay more practical. A STI is just marginally practical.
We can try and rationalize our choices but that does not make them actually rational.

I disagree.

If I could afford one I'd have some "nur designed" expensive car and track it, but I can't so I have a BRZ.

And the research and development and countless test hours put into cutting tenths off lap times is very important. It's the expensive flagships that pave the way and the lesser cars get the benefits over time.