Learning manual on the 86
 

So after saving up and loads of patience, I picked up a clean 2013 Toyota 86 in manual, however I only have experience on autos... for the past few days I've managed to learn all the basics however I'm still struggling with hill starts.

My main question is in regards to the clutch, I really do not want to damage it, It only has 22,000 km/13,000 miles which clearly was looked after by a good owner, two days ago I accidentally burned the clutch for a good 2-3 seconds practicing uphills, it was the first time ever, and honestly I hope the last.. I'm questioning whether it was a good idea getting a clean 86 for a first manual...

Overall, I'm on day 4 now and I'm much more smoother going up gears and getting off the brakes onto the clutch and I avoid riding the clutch, I still stall occasionally at the green lights, but I still struggle "down shifting" and tend to hold the clutch down and go down the gears... a really bad habit...

So, should I be worried... or is this car's gearbox fairly durable? And from experience, how long till I become second nature and really connect with this car? I try go for 1-2 hour drives daily..

Many thanks, and glad to be apart of this awesome forum for once :thumbup:

The hardest part of learning to drive manual is worrying about learning to drive manual. Just relax and try not to over think every move. Eventually (in days, weeks or years) you will do a whole trip and realize that you never even realized you were shifting.


There is no issue with heating up the clutch a couple of times just don't make it a habit and all will be fine. If you had got a beat car as your first manual you would be no further ahead.

Welcome, @emishor86 ....... to the forum and congratulations on your new car ....... :clap:

Yep, the clutch on these cars can be a challenge to some folks, when they are new to manual transmissions.

The reason is, the engine has relatively low torque and the flywheel is relatively light.

Just keep practicing, you will get the hang of it before you know it ....... :)


humfrz

Thank you :lol:

Yeah, defiantly the torque deficit makes it so easy to stall

I learned on mine, and I stalled. A lot. You will be fine. Take your time, practice a lot and learn how a manual transmission works, that can help a lot in giving you clues if you're doing things wrong.

For hill starts, just give it a bit more gas than usual to get going and be careful not to ride the clutch unneccesarily. Hold the brakes until you're ready or use the handbrake to hold you still before you take off :)

My clutch is still holding very nicely to this day and I'm now tracking the car from time to time.

Not much to add to the previous posts, really. Don't worry, be happy. The hint to learn about how the clutch and transmission works is a good one. You'll eventually get a feel for the "clutch engagement point".. the spot where the engine and the wheels are first introduced to each other as you release the clutch pedal. Once you can find that spot reliably by feel, the rest will all come together quickly.

When I was taught, I was told to give it gas first, get the revs up a bit, then slowly release the clutch until I felt the car start to move, add a bit more gas, and continue releasing the clutch. It works, but most folks tend to panic a bit at that point and either pop (release quickly) the clutch resulting in a stall or give it too much gas and end up peeling out and squeeling the tires (if the car has any power). When I taught my sons and my wife, I had them release the clutch slowly WITHOUT adding any gas until they heard the engine start to slow down slightly, then keep the clutch right there.. the engagement point. THEN slowly add gas and simultaneously slowly release the clutch the rest of the way. That seemed to keep the beginner "panic" factor lower.

Of course, neither is exactly the best way to do things. You don't want the clutch partially engaged or slipping for any longer than absolutely necessary; in real life, the clutch pedal and throttle pedal dance happen pretty quickly. Like all things, though, slow practice is sometimes the only way to get a rapid motion learned smoothly. Clutches don't particularly like "slow," i.e., slipping, but they REALLY don't like it under high power situations. Take your time, get the feel, and it'll come together quickly.

Once you've got it down, you'll never look back. The feeling of control you have with manual transmission... well.... with no disrespect to those who prefer the convenience and, at least in modern cars, the admitted better efficiency of recent automatic transmissions ... now you are DRIVING your car, always selecting the exact gear you want for the task at hand; prepping for accelerating through a curve, anticipating a steep uphill, upshifting sooner than usual on snowy roads so as to minimize torque. To this day I still would rather drive my manual FR-S on snowy or icy roads than my wife's Benz ML500. Her SUV is a tank.. but I still can predict and react better to what the FR-S will do when it loses traction than I can the ML500.

Just some thoughts. Opinions vary; take what you like and ignore the rest. Good on ya for taking the plunge; you'll be grinning and having fun in no time, and you'll never look back.

Best to ya,

Barry

Sounds great, does the car feel amazing now being comfortable with the clutch?

Yes! This is extremely relatable and I was squealing tires at the start until I gave gas second

I have been driving manuals for 45 years and still accidently squawk the tires time to time. I also sometimes miss a shift and once a year or so screw up a clutch release and stall. I don't do these things often but it happens. Anybody that tries to tell you they do not mess up once in a while is either a liar or have a very short or selective memory. Just don't get bent out of shape when it happens and you will be a pro in no time. There is no huge mystery or special skill required just practice.

At the moment I just need to master down shifting smoothly, but I guess practice makes perfect :happyanim:

However, the 86/FR-s feels like absolute sex around declined or inclined corners & apexes, I'm in love with this car and I'll spend mornings drinking tea and just looking the aesthetics haha :drool:

I may be a bit crazy, but I guess thats why we are "petrol heads"

The clutch is a wear part. It's meant to be burned up and replaced, like brake pads.

You're going to put more wear on the clutch when you're first learning. If you worry about it, that's just going to make you overthink it, and you'll burn it even worse. So just accept that you're going to put a little extra wear on it while you're learning and don't worry about it. You're not doing any lasting damage to the car that can't be remedied with a new clutch.

And clutches on modern cars are made to go tens, in some cases hundreds of thousands of miles before replacement. If you take a few thousand miles off its life while learning, it's not going to matter all that much in the big scheme of things. If you have to replace the clutch at 140K miles instead of 150K, will you even know the life was reduced?

Relax.

Seriously, people are complaining about insufficient torque for LEARNING TO OPERATE MT?

I learned driving MTs in cars that had less than 50 HP and probably corresponding torque. Even though they were for sure much lighter than modern cars, the weight to power (or torque) figures were enormous, and still one could start without stalling.

Yep!
1964 Karmann Ghia.
Only 4 speeds.
40HP and 60 torque.
0 to 60 in about an afternoon.
Top speed 70MPH.
Fun as hell!

Whats people's opinion on learning downshifting/rev matching on FRS/86? Is it fairly difficult? The throttle seems sensitive but the gearbox is smooth

LOL.. yep. I learned to drive manual on a 1960-something VW bus. Talk about lack of power and transmission slop. Still, I LOVED that car.

Barry

Rev match a little. With how light the fly wheel is it is fairly forgiving on this. Just lightly tap the gas right before you down shift then let the clutch out smoothly. Best advice I can give for starting out on hill starts is use the parking brake. Set it then its more or less just like taking off like normal but as you ease the clutch out also ease of the hand brake and away you will go without worry about rolling back into anyone.

Once you get the hang of the transmission, it's smooth sailing.

Learning to blip-shift was fairly straightforward, the hardest part is learning the amount of throttle required. It takes a bit of getting used to, every car is slightly different (with mods it can change too). I got a Cusco pedal to make it a bit easier at the track too.

I would concentrate on normal operation before learning to rev match / blip downshift. Just take your time with it.


I always tell people it is a smooth progression. You let out clutch and add same amount of gas slowly. That was the easiest way to get people to learn. I always had them feel the engagement point of the clutch without gas before hand though.... Without someone teaching you, it can be a little challenging. My dad taught me in a day and by the end of day three I was able to get around without much issue in my first manual vehicle. Just take your time and have fun.

As stated by everyone else, take it day by day, light by light, learn at your own pace and enjoy the ride.

Like yourself, this is my first manual car as well. No prior experience, just a bunch of youtube videos. lol Though only driving the FR-S on the weekends, I'm slowly getting the hand of it.

Yup, patience and practice. In my first 2 or 3 lessons of driver's ed the instructor took me to an empty back road. And there I started, changed gears up to 2nd or 3rd, stopped, started, and again, and again, and again.

I am in the same boat as you, ive only ever had auto cars. The 86 will be my first manual car and i just think with repetition it won't be much of a problem.

Riding the clutch for a few seconds won't hurt it. It's the only way to hill start without the hand brake

I drove an automatic for about 7 years before I got a manual. Took 6 months to change my mindset. Took another 12 months for things to truly click.

My biggest mistake: Reading well-intentioned comments on the internet about the right way to do things. The moment you think too much about it you end up getting a great big whiff of roasting clutch.

I think it is 70% muscle memory and 30% feeling when the wheels and powertrain are in sync.

I had a bad week last week. At every stop I was revving it up over 2k and riding the clutch until 10 mph. I awkwardly jerked into 2nd and 3rd. I couldn't get my feet to do what logic and reason was telling me. This week, I don't think I have gone over 800 rpm or not gotten off the clutch under 5 mph. My shifts were like butter.

There are good weeks and bad weeks. C'est la vie!

Best comment on manuals ever right there^^^^
Guys will give you all sorts of "tips" but they mean nothing in print since the whole operation is so tactile.
Not to mention that everybody's style is different. I read what some guys here do and think "WTF why?" all the time.

^ Handbrake on a hill start comes immediately to mind.


OP, stay away from the "how do I drive a manual" threads.

What wolf said, stay away, just learn by feel. If you feel you're doing it wrong, experiment

I learned how to drive my first manual car with my FRS. But it was a bit easier since I knew how to ride a motorcycle.

I had one of my friend thought me since he was riding along. I knew the basic stuff, but wasn't good at hills. What we did was we went and found a commercial area that had a hilly area (It was empty) and practiced clutch control and gas control on it. We started at a slightly steep hill and went to more steep hill.

Burning clutch is gonna be normal since we're still learning. I had a parking lot area hill where it was really steep to get up and its always busy, so imagine how that was, I could smell the burnt clutch for a few mins even tho it was for a few seconds lol.

But take your time, don't rush it, and don't think about stalling. Keep watching different videos on YT and read about it to learn more about the car and manual. I'm still iffy on the gear changes, but I'm getting a lot more used to it, so I'm like you, my main issue right now is steep hill area, but I got the idea on how to do it, but still not smooth and my gear change is not smooth all the time. For those hill, you can use the e-brake method too.

I agree with comment saying that there are good weeks and bad weeks and I especially think it's true for beginners. I've only been driving stick for 3 years and I feel that way.

That's part of what makes stick so fun in this car--it's like you have so much control and the car needs very precise engagement so you never know when your shift is gonna be precise or 80% precise. Thus, it really keeps you engaged.

I am curious about something. When I took my drivers test the e-brake was considered the AT version of park. Has that changed?

I would think using the e-brake would be a distraction but that could just be how I was taught.

And yes it's been a good while since I learned to drive a MT. I learned first on a Ford 8n (farm tractor) and then a lovely (not) baby blue pinto wagon that was older than I was at the time.



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congratulation on your new ride!!hope you enjoy it.

Took me 2 days to learn,,2 weeks to get used to it. I think it depends on person.
But if you practice more,,you ll get used to it faster. Watch some youtube about how manual work will give you the idea and increase the processes.

When you take off from the green light, put little more gas to 2500 rpm,and let go the clutch slowly with confident. Thats what i have been experience.

It's more than that. You may (and should*) use it to secure the car when parked. But you can also used it in ways that do not work with Park, like help with uphill starting, emergency brake if the main brake fails, or to induce drift ;-).




* it is sometimes discouraged in freezing temperatures, supposedly water can freeze within the cable sleeve or between pads and rotors and you won't be able to disengage. I always use e-brake when parked and it have never happened to me.

Most drivers ed classes only teach the basics.
A lot of the fleet cars they use only have a foot parking brake with the ratchet and a release handle located in an inconvenient place.
It's either on or off.
It's a foot brake and not a hand brake. You can't really release those smoothly.

To get around teaching about how to use a handbrake they just don't..

How are you supposed to park these cars if you dont use the hand brake though?

I live in the city so pretty much anywhere you park, your car has a chance of rolling around. Either due to unlevel/uneven ground or just something nudging your car.

Leave it in gear.

Yup. But gear plus parking brake is safer. Plus, on inclines turn the wheels so that the car will stop against the curb if everything else fails.

I learned to drive manual transmission on my BRZ. I'm not going to rehash what others have said about technique, and I think too much thinking about technique when learning to drive manual is not always a good thing. What helped me the most was remembering that if the car starts stalling, give it more gas or more clutch. I had a habit of panic-dumping the clutch and stalling the car when things started to not go my way.

The most important thing I can tell you about this though, is do not be afraid for the car. You are not going to damage your clutch learning to drive stick, and the car will tell you when it's not happy with you. Your clutch pedal will heat up under your foot if you're shifting constantly, this doesn't mean you're screwing up, it just happens. If you start smelling your clutch (you'll know, it smells bad), stop the car and give it a rest for an hour.

I probably stalled my car about 20 times before I even got it rolling once (this was also on a test drive, it was great). I managed to run it into a curb in a cul-de-sac, couldn't figure out how the reverse gear lockout worked, and had to put it in neutral and push it backwards. However much of an idiot you may think you are while struggling with the stick shift, I guarantee you lots of other people have been there before. Keep at it! One day everything will suddenly come together and you'll realize you're shifting with no effort at all. Practice is all it takes and the reward is a way more fun driving experience.

Also a decent advice I got from YT. If you feel like it need more gas, give it more gas (Not too much tho, like 10%-15% more give or take).

But like other said, we can give you tips and advice all day, but at the end its what you're more comfortable with, since we all don't drive the same way. Practice, practice and practice. Empty lot works best. You can try those driver instructed course (Autocross I believe and a few others, depending on what they have at your local track).

Come to think about it, My dad taught me how to drive a manual too. Thou I think my nissan was like a lot more forgiving then twin's clutch... Funny How that car is probably lighter then the twins judging by the feel I remember.

But ya, one thing about this car is that it took me a while to figure out where the bite point is, cuz when it was brand new my clutch was light as feather... & it got heavier overtime. So you just need to remember where the bite point is with muscle memory then it will be super easy.

I learned to drive manual on my brand new BRZ, i was a bit scare to mess things up in the beginning, but like people have mentioned above, DO NOT OVER THINK IT!!. Learn the basic and your brain will just adapt to the new driving habits with time.

You do need to have good reflects and have good cordination between your foot and hands IMO...

Straya kunt! Maybe this yt vid can help you visualize it a little bit. [ame="http://youtu.be/ErCw1FfLPf4"]http://youtu.be/ErCw1FfLPf4[/ame]