Car losing traction in corners
 

I have a 2013 scion frs, I have put 18x8.5 inch rims and Michelin Pilot SS on them, also have eiback lowering springs, with real control arms. That is all for the suspension. I am having a problem now when going around turns that my car sways/rolls a lot, and my anti braking system comes on a lot more! the biggest issue is, it does not feel safe. I have gotten everything calibrated and aligned to the best I can..

I am looking for a way to reduce this and have not found a solid answer to my question since there is a lot of different items out there. I was thinking about purchasing a rear sway bar in hopes it would fix it...possibly a front? idk, because im not sure if its the front or back that causes this.

Whatever it may be, if you guys do think my best bet would be to get a sway bar etc.. would i need a re alignment or what would I have to do when putting it on?

What's your alignment?

Which model eibach springs?

Why rear control arms?

Adding to the list of questions, what size tires?

if you did the alignment yourself, then bring it to a real alignment shop. to me, it definitely sounds like alignment issue. did you install all the items at once? make sure all your bolts are correctly tightened.

And pressure?


Sounds like you've discovered the bump stops to me. If that's true, start with trying to get smoother in the corners, not all, but a lot of the pitching and rolling can be smoothed out by good driving. Once you've gotten to the point that you can't fix it any further, then it'll be time to looking into stiffer springs and appropriate dampers.

How fast are you taking corners?

Read these:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...light=handling
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45554

MORE QUESTIONS.

You shouldn't need to get an alignment if you're just installing sway bars, to answer one of your questions. I also don't recommend going to a big-ass rear bar.

Sway bars are for fine tuning the balance of the car for more or less oversteer and is a driver preference thing, not really a performance mod. They are also the last suspension thing you should change.

As others said get an alignment I would start with -2.5 front and -2.0 camber rear with 0 toe all around.

Again as stated you may be "over tired" as in your tires are not well matched to your suspension, i.e. springs are too soft, tires have to much grip, that will get you into the bump stops rather quick.

TL/DR -2.5 camber front -2.0 camber rear. stiffer springs. Don't do swaybars unless you know what the hell you are doing.

Instability can come from many sources:
- Some tires can be a little greasy for the first few miles... and that will sort itself out.
- Alignment (especially rear toe) can cause the back end to get loose.
- If an impact wrench was used on the top nut, it might have worn some seals in your front struts.
- The most likely option is as @Calum said: Less Compression Travel + Full-Length Bump Stop = Surprise Skids

Eibach springs SHOULD have come with new bump stops. Those would be the ideal solution. Also, you can chop the existing ones (per this thread LINK) 3/4" from the bottom.

If your troubleshooting doesn't find anything wrong, you can always go back to stock and move to an "all in one" system later (coilovers or reuse the springs with Bilstein/Koni struts).

All an alignment can do is fix toe that's wrong, if the toe is good (zero toe front, slight toe-in rear which should help stabilize the rear) then OP is feeling the effects of heavy wheels, potentially poorly sized tires (lots of floppy rubber or stretched and unresponsive) and maybe the lowering springs have affected his roll center, but I'd be surprised as I don't think even the Eibachs go low enough to do that.

Oooh, did you zero the camber on the rear with your lca? If so, that's it right there, you dun' goofed, you should have somewhere around -1.5 degrees.

FWIW OE suspension can handle a sticky tire in OE size quite well (ran 215 Z2SS all last year on stock coilovers, big thumbs up imo), given that the eibachs are stiffer (less body roll) and the MPSS isn't the stickiest tire in the world I'd be surprised if that was the only factor.

imho
Step 1: Check toe, post numbers from the shop if you have them from before (unclear if you do or not), go to a shop, whatever
Step 2: Test if you change it, report back
Step 3: Bolt on OE wheel/tire if you have them available
Step 4: Test and report back

Buying a sway bar to fix this is like putting a bandaid on a heart-attack given your description of "it feels unsafe".

For the sake of our 86 brothers, I wanted to +1 the idea of stock sized Z2's. They add significant grip and only a little weight during low-speed steering (no "numbness" that giant tires give).

This Road & Track's article (LINK) convinced me. Direzzas in stock size took 2 seconds off the lap time and made the car more forgiving. At 235 width, it just slowed them down.

If you're adding significant power... bring on the meaty tires. At stock power, you don't need much.

Put everything back to stock and sell your car. Thats the only solution I see here for you that doesn't result in a significant loss of money or injury.

The extra roll is probably from the lowering springs. One thing to try would be roll center adjusters, and/or raise the car back up.

What wheels did you get? are they significantly heavier than stock? lower bump travel, better tires, and more unsprung weight all need more spring. You might be bottoming out on your suspension which is really bad for traction.

To try and answer as many questions as I can...
Size of my tires is 225/40/18 but I have eibach sport line, with Michelin pilot super sports on 18x8.5 rims. I got my car aligned at a professional dealer but everything was not put on at the same time...I have rear lower control arms because when I put on the springs my car would not align properly without them so I had to get them. I am seeing her it looks like a strut bar/sway is not the answer. And it seems to be something else...I might take it to Toyota and get it aligned what specs should I get them to get it too?
Everything is new also. I have had the rims and tires for going on 3 months. The springs and stuff less then a month.
Below is a picture of my alignment specs Lord hoping it uploads.

The speed at which I'm taking corners depends...at about a 60 degree angle it starts skidding around 65 give or take

Picyure

looks like it might be the rear toe

Yeah, the Sportlines don't give you enough bump travel. Sticky tires will increase roll and combined with not enough bump travel, you're finding the bottom of your suspension travel in hard turns. You could certainly use a little more camber front and rear, but the setup you have *should* favor understeer, if anything.

Also, where are you turning 60 degrees at 65MPH? That's a little brisk for the street.

EDIT: Not to say that I'm blaming the Sportlines for loss of grip, necessarily. Just pointing out a potential issue with the setup.

If anything, positive toe should make the rear end less likely to rotate.

I'm totally guessing. Even if that was gone, possibly I'm just thinking I drive a corvette but I was driving down the highway today at 108mph and I felt like my car was gonna start flipping because it was swaying so much, kind of like a roll and the under carriage felt like it was on water, or floating....lol best I can explain it

Yes I know how to drive, whether my grammar and vocab relays that. My family and I have been racing/driving at VIR where I live for years, I've driven Porsche, GTR, Turbo-D Scion FR-S...etc. I don't believe my driving is the problem, as at the track it's hardly ever straight lots of twist and turns. And while driving these cars that would blow mine out of the water I have been fine, to say the least. No I can't go 150mph on the track, but I have nerve had anything like this pop up before.

Ok, just checking. I wasn't trying to be rude or offensive.

Didn't think you were! Just trying to clarify as I would like to get this issue fixed...seems like I might need coil-overs that would better suit my tire and rim setup. Or vice versa

OK then.

Looking st everything you've mentioned now, its going to have to be the springs and potentially blown shocks as well. You need to read up on what other people are using.

I'm pretty sure my shocks aren't blown...not sure what I described that would make you think that? Also, I have brand new springs?

How many miles are on the shocks?

I ran with just springs on my car for a year and it never felt like it was rolling or swaying more than it did stock, less in fact. But then again those Eibach's you are running are not really designed for much more than lowering for looks... The "over 1.5" of lowering offered by those Sportlines is far too much for the stock shocks if you are doing serious driving.

Just wanted to chime in here. I'm running eibach sportlines with Goodyear F1A2 245 r40s. I also put on koni yellow shocks to help with the lowering springs.

Running LCAs in the back with camber bolts in the front
I believe I am at -1.4 camber in the front and -1 in the back. I would try to dial in the negative front camber alot. Like as much as you can TBH you're practically at zero in the front, I would dial the rear back maybe .3-.5 to be around or a little more negative that -1.

Negative camber at the front helps with turn in and stability in higher speed corners. I've had no problems with my sportlines at all. you dont have a TON of toe, but something you want as little as possible generally; negative camber is much more beneficial

~Get a new alignment asap~

I'm also riding sportlines. I'm far from a pro driver, but very few can keep up with me through the mountains. The springs aren't the issue.

I'm currently running -2.1 in the front and -1.3 in the rear with PSS, but didn't have any issues on my stock alignment on crappy tires either.

Sportlines are way too low for the stock struts. You'll be riding on the bumpstops all the time, especially on the MPSS.
You can't just throw parts at it and think it'll handle better. This car had thousands of hours in suspension design for a reason.
If you cut the bump stops you may see some improved performance by letting the suspension move more.
Sway bars might help, but they ride is going to be absolutely crap with the addition of the sway bars on the stock struts. If you're insistent on keeping the Sportlines, you need to upgrade the struts and cut the bumpstops. Then you can think about some sway bars. Sway bars are not a handling fix, but something used to fine tune rotation after your suspension is figured out.
To be honest even upgrading struts won't help much on the sportlines; they really are just too low and too soft. As already mentioned, there isn't enough bump travel with them and you'll just end up bottoming out whatever struts on put on the car. no matter the bump stop you use. You could try buying long soft bumpstops to act as a progressive increase in spring rate ad the car moves through bump, but it's still just a bandaid.

EVEN MORE QUESTIONS...actually i dont have any. But! RCE yellow and B8's tho....

I drove a car with Sportlines before, it was atrocious and did exactly what you've described, pitched and rolled whenever the suspension was compressed from a corner and a tire hit a small bump. The ride/handling in that car was literally one of the worst I've ever driven that wasn't actually broken.

I disagree with sticky tires and stock suspension. Maybe my driving wasn't up to par, maybe my roads are worse... I don't know. But my experience was different. For me I ended up moving to RCE yellow springs to help the transition onto the bump stops with the otherwise stock suspension and stock tires. When I moved up to MPSS (yes, I know they are only a street tire, that's all I was using them for) I was back to unpredictable responses to mid corner bumps.

What I ended up with is RCE 0's. I like them a lot, and would recommend them in a heartbeat. They're rebuildable so you wont have to worry about replacing them when they wear out. They're very well damped, with enough head room to move to stiffer springs if you choose, but still very livable for daily driving. But that was the best for me and my price range. If I were you I'd talk to Andy or Myles from RCE, truely awesome guys and their whole business is built around getting the customer into the right product.

Aside from that, for the love of all that is holy, you need some more negative camber in the front. You'll destroy the outside edge of your tires in short order with 0 camber. I'm presently at -2.5 degs in the front and I'm thinking of getting camber plates so I can take it to -3.5, and some more caster. (My golf has more caster than this car, and it's front wheel drive. :bonk:)

The rest of the alignment is pretty subjective. A lot of guys, myself included, are running around 0 rear toe. It does wonder a little more on the highway, but it's still very stable. The way the car rotates, though, more than makes up for any wondering on the highway. Based on your track record of cars and what you've described of your driving, I'd recommend this for you as well.

I'd leave the rear camber, it's pretty close to even and once you get the extra grip from the front camber you'll likely want that much rear camber. (If you only get camber bolts for the front, you'll end up somewhere around -1.5 degs camber in the front, in that case, I'd reduce the rear camber to -1 degs.)

Just one more thing. A sway bar, or anti-sway bar, is a functional part of the suspension. It helps to reduce side to side motion by transferring compressive forces from the outside tire to the inside tire. A strut bar is a brace that connects the tops of the struts. Strut bars are not functional parts of a suspension, they just help to keep the frame of the car from flexing. Putting a larger rear sway bar on a rear wheel drive car can make it much harder to get power down on corner exit because they actually reduce grip to the inside tire. That's fine if you want to move to a better rear diff, but I'm not looking to spend that much money.

From given chart of Chase1996 imho obvious reason for traction loss is toe-out in rear. OEM-ish way of alignment is zero toe-in/out all around for least tire wear, but imho it should be much better with zero toe-in front, and slight toe-in in rear for extra stability under power in RWD. Other way around then currently in his car now that is.
More camber in front won't hurt, but first that toe-out in rear should be fixed.

S, what do you recommend to frix this? Get coilovers? Also for the long stop bumpstops can you recommend any.

SO what should I try to get my specs too?

Why not just visit some alignment shop and ask to dial in some toe-in at rear? And at same time try to max out camber in front. In most cases i've seen for these cars camber by 0.5 more in front then in rear. For example F:1.5 deg & R:1, F:2.5 & R:2 .. If you have stock suspension, might be worth buying some crash bolts to help dialing more camber then it at stock provides.

For one im not an expert on cars, or suspensions. I would have no idea what to tell them...even so would this even fix the issue? It seems the bump stops are to short.

All the parts have to work in harmony. You shouldn't be hitting them during any kind of normal driving.

I went with the prokit springs because they work with the stock struts. I have 40000 miles with them. I think members have posted good info on what to change on your alignment.