E85 gone wrong
 

I'm on a tried and true E85 tune with Wayno's charts and maf. Worked fine for a month or so.
I fueled up at a new station (Very nice part of town) the other day.
And for the past few days I've noticed a lot of bogging. To the point I was manually downshifting to get power.
Plugged the OFT in this morning to check out what was going on:

http://datazap.me/u/mgpaxman/e85-gon...ata=7-10-11-12 (Pick any section)


After some panic, and with a half tank of fuel still I decided the numbers pointed toward some E20 or something instead of E85. And decided the best course of action was to fuel up with 93 and switch over to a Petrol tune.

http://datazap.me/u/mgpaxman/petro-t...zoom=3577-4684

So I guessed right.
Still need to go back to that station and ask them if they have any idea what they are selling!

Pax

Yep looks like it was petrol or very low E content.

here is how to protect yourself with oft.

Use the tuning alerts or monitor your long term fuel trims if the trims exceed about 10% then you have a problem.

here are the tuning alerts I use with OFT to alert me of any issues

You can have three Alerts and each alert can consist of 4 parameters configured to trigger alarm if All (AND) or one (OR) condition is met.

you need to have any parameter your using as an alert selected in the logging.

Screen will flash and alarm will sound if any of the limits are exceeded.


Alert A (over temperature)
Coolant Temp > 207 F
Oil Temp > 250 F
Select OR at bottom of screen


Alert B ( knock alert & Fuel Trim alert)

For E85 suggest -1 for Petrol may -2
FLKC < -1
Knock Correction < -1
IAM < 0.9
LTFT > +10
LTFT < -10

Select OR at bottom of screen


I set the fuel trim alert as Im on E85 and it will alert me to excessive fuel trims due ethanol content changes or someone accidentally filling up with petrol, it will also alert you of exhaust or intake leaks.



Alert C running lean alert
you might have to tweak AFR for petrol/E85 try 13 for E85 12.5 Petrol
RPM > 5000
Engine Load > 1
AFR > 13
Select AND at bottom of screen




You will need Template 8.2 of later and OFM version 1.21.0 or later

I was running an e70 tune w/o flex fuel for awhile. i was so paranoid that every time i filled up (twice a week) i checked the actual ethanol content along with monitoring the fuel trims. it got old after a few months then after 6 i was over it. Now I won't get an e85 tune again unless i have a flex fuel sensor.

That is precisely why we recommend Flex Fuel. It eliminates the worry and paranoia.

Why so paranoid? Yikes!

I don't have the OFT running all the time. Too attractive to thieves and takes my phone holder.

I think this has finally put me off E85. At least for now.

Thank you for all that info tho. If I do run it again, I'll be sure to reference this post!

Pax

Ok


how about running Torque app on your phone with a $10 elm327 adapter.
you can set torque up to monitor LTFT and alarm on high or low values

This is something I should do... b/c I have torque and a linq

That's a good option also. Thank you.
Honestly, without pushing the car hard I don't feel a huge boost from
E85 over a good Petrol tune.
And here in Nashville, only a couple places to buy e85 and it's close to premium in price.
The car is an AT and I don't track it.
I would be perfectly happy with a chip that had the tune I have settled on.
I think I've done my fiddling. Now it's time just to enjoy the car!
But thanks for all your insight!


Pax

What???? Are you kidding? I live in Nashville and am on E85. Have been since I bought the car basically. There are a TON of E85 stations + they are stupid cheap.

I'm out in Lebanon a lot, and the station at 109 & I-40 was 1.21/gal last time I filled up.

Wow! I've found Three places in two years. A Thortons up I 40 at 119 and one out in Smyrna which is out half the time. And the one that sells petrol with an E85 sticker on the pump (apparently). Thortons was 1.70 or so last time I fueled up there.

How do you find them? All my internet searches come up with just 3? I'm on exit 59 and I 24.

Also Thortons has changed to "Flex Fuel" which makes me nervous!

My Thortons has always said Flex but it's always been reliable 83%

I like how steve comes in and wrecks the question 8 ways to sunday.

http://www.etcleanfuels.org/refuel-tn.html

http://www.e85locator.net/State%20Pa...locations.html

There is another station in the Hermitage, and another one next to the airport. Not sure exactly how many there are but there are more than 3 for sure. There's one up in Gallatin, two in Lebanon, one in Murfreesboro (I think).

The one on 109 & I 40 is consistently 78-79% E.

I do have flex fuel though so I never think about it. I've seen as low as low 60's in E content.

That first link of Daemano's shows more than I've ever been able to find online. Thanks.

BTW....Went back to that Shell that I got the bad gas from and apparently they had switched the pump to "Pure fuel" 87 no ethanol without taking off the "E85" Sticker that was just above the pump handle!! Grrrrrr. Probably the worst scenario I could imagine for an Ethanol Tune! No ethanol and 87 octane!!!
I wanted to go inside and raise hell....But probably not that guys fault.
Hope I didn't hurt my engine. :(

The ecu is very good at managing knock and fueling

Here is a log from a stock car running stock tune in South Africa the best fuel they can get in that country is 95 R0N, it about as good as USA 89\87. This guy has been tracking his car as well as do his mates. Its not blown up and all the other 86\brz in that country will be same. Note his iam is 0.2 and he is still getting knock corrections of -3 degrees each time throttle is opened, this was a road log
http://datazap.me/u/steve99/south-af...0&data=2-20-28

its got 30% or more fueling adjustment through trims

FLKC can drop timing instantly about 6 degrees and IAM reduction from one down to 0 can drop the timing in the mid to upper rpm ranges another 4 to 6 degrees. Thats a total of over 10 degrees mid to upper rpm, this is about the timing added in an e85 tune. While this is not ideal on an NA motor its good enough to save you in your situation unless you took it a track and beat on it.

Boosted well it probably wouldnt be pretty.

Thanks for the reassurance Steve! Mine was at -28 LTFT and .03 adv. multiplier with FLKC pulling 4 or so also.

It's good to know the car was handling it.....And I'm glad I checked it!! :)

if youre ever in east nashville theres a speedway at cahal and gallatin and their e85 is always priced under regular.

What a bunch of fucking morons!

And this is why you get a Flexfuel kit and tune when going E85...

i didnt know we can set alert from OFT. i am going to try later

Yep, works like a charm.

BTW, I've been running e85 on OFT tune stock (no flex fuel kit or ECUtek tune needed) for maybe 2 years total for about 20k miles. No problems whatsoever. Just had to be the littlest bit mindful that the right gas is going in the car. No big whoop. My buddy @WRB5titch on the board has run the same setup as I for 50k miles. Same great results. For my current setup it's terrific. I'd consider spending the extra $1500 if it was necessary, but so far, it ain't.

60k now :thumbup:

How do you go to extra $1500?

FF kit, is less than $500 from Moto East.
FF tune + Ecutek license is about $600. (Total between both about $1100).
Subtract the $400+ from OFT, and it's around $700 more.

The peace of mind if priceless :thumbup:

@MGPAX @xsnapshot
Do you guys experience knock over -1 at sudden throttle change?
Also what mods are you guys running?

I tried e85 last fall before it gets too cold, but I noticed -0.6 fbkc around 4k rpm almost every time and over -1 fbkc at sudden throttle change.
The gas I put was always e75(BP @ corner of Moores Ln & Mallory Ln in Franklin)

you need a tester so you never get hung up like that again. 20 bucks and 30 seconds can save you some heart ache. one drop of food coloring really helps you read the gauge.

or set up alerts on his OFT and it would have beeped and flashed warnings as below, its a rearly usefull feature


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...40&postcount=2

No I've never had anything like that. Not when I was bolt-ons and E85, and not now that I'm supercharged either. NA I was using openflash tablet, and now I'm using EcuTek.

Relevant mods are UEL catless header, catless 2.5" exhaust, JRSC w high boost pulley, E85, injectors, pump, and flex fuel.

Have you tried adjusting tip in enrichment? What tuning solution are you using?

Im with OFT now.
Mods are full catless exhaust with Gruppe-S UEL and grimmspeed intake bolt on wise.
As Im not confident yet about adjusting tune, I haven't done anything yet other than pulling minimal timing in the area.

I have been seeing some Tip in knock as well and my LTFTs are in the 10% range so I am sure the fuel is of high ethanol content. Have anyone else seen similar tip in knock?

10% plus or minus ?

shiv tune is set up for about e75 for low trims

positive trims indicate higher e%
negitive trims lower e%

10 % would be e60 or e90 or arround that

if it -10 would indicate arround e60 and if its mixed with low grade petrol then you might get a bit of knock round 3000 rpm 0.6 load, ive seen it a bit on some cars especialky manuals in high gear, just pull a degree

Hmm is it just me that use Quick fuel measure :D
I always have some fuel containers in the trunk, and just filling up about 1liter of E85 at the gas station, then I take out my syringes that I use to fill up the Quick fuel and check the content :thumbup:
The separation is very quick if it's really bad, say e70-75.
But too get a really good reading of E92 that we had in the pumps last summer, the last % take some minutes to get a final reading on.

http://www.quickfueltechnology.com/s...test-tube.html

It was +10 so probably true E85 I guess