How Does the Alfa 4C Stack Up Against the Toyota GT 86 / Scion FR-S & Porsche Cayman?
 

http://www.carscoops.com/2014/01/how...inst_9992.html

it seemed like all they wanted to do was drift so im not too surprised they didnt like the short wheelbase, rear weight bias, or turbo. i cant see liking the alfa if that is the case. it was refreshing to see a comparison not talk about objective performance at all though.

Saw this yesterday, despite all that. I think we will still see most ppl pick the alfa if money isn't a issue.

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No stick, no deal.

spend 10 grand extra on the FRS and you have 1. the most fun. 2. the best performance. 3. 10 grand to spare.

4) a scion

Ya, but I think lots ppl (outside us especially) will just buy it cuz it's an alfa. /wink

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stop it. this happens at pretty much every level of car cost. for the price of the frs you can have a supercharged track ready miata. its not the point.

Not new you can't. (His original point was comparing new v. new). But I agree with your general premise that modified vs. stock is pointless.

i was talking about a new miata. i guess if the prices of the frs have dropped it might not work but at the time of my purchase, you could get a supercharged miata with intake, full exhaust, clutch, shocks, springs, sways and a roll bar for about 27. it might not be the case now but you can still take a new miata a lot faster than a stock twin.

you can definitely buy a stock car for cheaper than the frs that will be faster but with the miata, you also get to check the more reliable and more fun boxes and still have some change.

i think the fundamental issue is that people most likely are naturally logarithmic in nature but are forced to think with linear values. in my head, thats explains our inherent misunderstanding of diminishing returns.

Depemding on the market you're in, a brand new Miata doesn't cost necessarily cost that much less than the Twins do.

IIRC the NC miata seems to top out at around 250whp at the crank with basic aftermarket bolt on forced induction kits, whereas similar kits on the Twins can get 250 at the wheels.

Since the Alfa's turbocharged from the factory it should probably be easy to get an extra horsepower out of it with a simple chip tune.

That Cayman S - far and away the best car in the test but just too rich for my blood. I have 10k in my 86 and it's fantastic, but it's still no Cayman S. Still doesn't cost anywhere near as much as a Cayman S does though.

The alfa is hot sex. I'd love to have one. That said, the porker is the superior car. I'd buy a vette c7 before either.

I'm honestly waiting for ANY video with good tires on the 86! Why do they always track it on crappy eco tires and then compare it to cars that come factory with better rubber?

A new stock Club PRHT costs $29.5K. I don't know the hell you $27K w/ a blower, suspension, intake, exhaust. roll bar and clutch. You tack welding coat hangers in your garage?

Quicker, but not faster. A miata will never have the high speed stability and aero efficiency of the FRS let alone the corner exit speed. If you want fun and nimble, get a Lotus or MR2. Miata is just a poser car by comparison. Once you go lightweight MR, all things Miata are just a joke.

3 great cars and different price points. The Alpha has a great form. The Porsche is refined.

Several points made in the video really spoke to me about the '86.

- At 4:40 (driving the Alpha looking ahead at the GT'86) "Something tells me, he's having more fun than I am here."

- At 4:48 (pointing at the '86 from the Alpha) "I want to be in that car!"

- And everything after 5:00 while driving the '86.

Some people want prestige from their car, or are brand loyal. I don't care for that kind of prestige and am not brand loyal. Fun, trackability, good throttle response, RWD, some utility, good looks, low costs, new not used. FR-S was the best choice.

This exactly,

The fact that out of warranty and old it will be retard simple to fix at home is a bonus too.

youre blaming the wrong people. its the toyotas fault. im sure if you offered to put decent tires on a test car for a reiviewer, they would look into it.
quicker means faster. those words are synonymous. why would you buy a prht club miata other than to use that ridiculous msrp (even though you can buy a new one for 25k here in socal). just like the miata, the frs wont have the stability or speed of a 27k mustang so why stop with the frs? its a slippery slope and stopping in the middle arbitrarily isfoolish.

you can call a miata a joke but it shows you dont know what you are talking about. on the west coast buttonwillow is the standard test of what is fast. i think the fastest miata to lap there ran a 1:51xx. i would love for you to show me an elise, mr2 or even a twin that gets close.

Quick means quick (nimble/agile), fast means fast (top speed, etc). Buy a dictionary.

I didn't compare the Mustang because it's an aerodynamic brick which is only somehow superior in your mind. You think a Mustang is more stable? That's crazy talk. Why not a school bus w/ some turbines, that should work for you.

PHRT is closest you can get to having a coupe, not that even with a soft top you could get a new Miata with any of the options you claimed you could have for the same price of a FRS. Ridiculous.

And BS on 1:15, that's on Streets of Willow, no way is that Buttonwillow. You've obviously never raced there to even know the difference. To help you out, Streets is a 'quick' technical track. Buttonwillow is a 'fast' track. Streets is anything but a measure of speed as it has nothing remotely highspeed about it except that one short straight which is usually uphill when going counterclockwise. Nothing like Buttonwillow.

Here's the Evasive GT86 doing 1:49.6 barely prepped and detuned which is not far off the overall record for modified/limited class.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dbXk82Uih8"]Evasive FR-S Testing at Buttonwillow CW13 12-15-13 1:49.6 - YouTube[/ame]

I don't seem to see any Miatas doing jack for shit at Buttonwillow. Except maybe rolling over into a ball of fire. Oh look, here's one doing 2:07. How adorable.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SREIt6fUNU"]Speedventures Miata Challenge at Buttonwillow #13 2:07.6 lap on 1/30/11 - YouTube[/ame]

Here. 2 seconds.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_IWa_qlt3g"]2013 Scion FR-S - YouTube[/ame]

Where is this 1:15 Miata of which you speak?

i dont need a dictionary. you do. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fast?s=t note the use of the word quick. those terms describe the amount of time to accomplish something. thats it.
yeah that 1:15 was a typo and i edited it to say the 1:51 i meant. sorry about that.

phrt isnt any closer to a coupe than a soft top and in under a minute i found a miata for 20111 and all the stuff i mentioned for 7650.

thats a cool video of the evasive frs but calling it barely prepped is very misleading. either way, calling the miata a joke is nuts but you can go ahead and just post a random video of a miata running a 2:07. if i showed you a video of a brz running a 2:08 would you believe the miata was faster than the brz? of course not because a video doesnt prove that the car cant go faster than that.

i would like to see an mr2 and an elise go faster than the numbers i posted though since you still seem to think the miata is a joke while those cars are not.

Fine. 1:24 Elise here:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiR7fy3HhZU"]Streets of Willow Lotus Elise 11/29/9 - YouTube[/ame]

Oh, so if I accelerate 0-60 in 3.5secs but my top speed is 110mph versus another that does it in 5.5 secs yet it hits 175 mph, which is quick and which is fast?

Soo, you're new Miata package is actually $28K predicated on getting a new one with delivery for $20K. So which FRS MSRP are you comparing that to? Who is exaggerating their numbers again?

Meh it's barely prepped in the sense that its a Pike's Peak car running at 4/5ths around BW. I don't think that's a time attack setup for BW.

the 1:51 was for buttonwillow. i think the fastest miata around streets was 1:20.6

Show me both. I want to see what was done to them and what track configuration was used for their times that you feel compelled to push the Miata as god's gift to sports cars.

they are numbers i pulled from trackhq. i have no reason to doubt them considering the community. they are pretty serious miatas in both instances but i dont think either is backed by a big shop (maybe 949 or trackspeed but still nowhere near what evasive is). i dont think the miata is gods gift to anyone. i just think its far from a joke. especially when you take the time to bring things up like the mr2. im not sure if the elise has enough space for front tire to be as fast as the really fast miatas. combine that with the fact that the aftermarket is bigger for the miata than it is for all other cars you mentioned combined and you get some miatas with crazy fast times. if i ever outgrow my track miata i will probably get an s2k and then a vette. the mr2, elise and as of now the frs just dont make sense for the track imo

If I had to guess it would be Gordon Jennings' 1994 Rotrex Miata supercharged to 400hp running Hoosiers. Of course not a new Miata with the crap stock suspension let alone stock tires.

Miata is fine, but not my thing for a quick fun drive. I'll take the lower weight and better/later braking in a 2000lb MR. Stock for stock, that's my preference which is why I never bought into a Miata. Plus the experience of having the engine behind your head is unlike anything you'll ever get from a Miata. I'd only consider one for the PRHT tbh. If you want silly speed, a V6 swap in an MR looks like fun. Throwing the Miata in the face of the FRS/BRZ just makes no sense. Better to compare it to it's peers of which I feel there are better alternatives anyway except wrt aftermarket support.

yeah well neither the elise or mr2 are new so i thought we threw that criteria out the window. goodwin racing did a sub minute horsethief lap so i dont think the new miata has crap suspension. if anything, its better inherently than the frs.

dont get me wrong, i adore what the mr2 and elise are about. every time i drive my friends 2zz swap, i kinda wish i bought it when he was having trouble with smog instead of the brz. my only point was that the miata will take you very far and there is a real reason that it is the most raced car in the world.

The Alfa is clearly the fastest car and the easiest to drive. On the street the extra torque from the turbo and the understeer will help any driver drive more quickly.

What this video really shows is how much better the Toyota/Subaru could be if it could put its meagre power down.

Superficially the Toyota looks like "more fun" but it is very hard to drive it quickly.

Every competent driver who gets one of these on a track finds the same fault: too much oversteer and too easily reached. The car is slower than it could be because the rear end won't put the power down.

I have no idea about fatoni's claims, but a simple google of fastest miata buttonwillow shows up this video at 1:54. No idea if its actually the fastest or what the details are as I haven't watched it past the first 2 seconds:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzIh67OSROQ"]1:54 lap Buttonwillow 13CW Miata - YouTube[/ame]

The FR-S is already cheaper to begin with. Truecar lists the average price paid for a Miata club (lowest trim with standard LSD) at $26,599. The average price paid for an FR-S (with standard LSD) is $25,300. I'm not sure how you would add all those mods (esp the supercharger, clutch and rollbar) into the equation and keep the price of the Miata below $27k, but no matter what you do, it'll cost more than a new FR-S.

Fun to drive is subjective, but in my experience (and I've had the chance to drive a stock NC Miata quite often), in stock trim the FR-S is more fun at the track (or anytime pushed above 7/10ths) due to a suspension with much better body control. Modded vs. modded is anyone's game.

No it didn't when I or others searched. No it isn't the fastest anymore nor is it even relevant if you read the thread. The discussion has since moved on to the topic at hand.

I'm also sure that 270hp Goodwin on slicks running a sub minute horse thief isn't on stock suspension or unmodded chassis either but I digress.

Personally, I don't consider the FRS my 'fast' car and it was NOT purchased to be. I got sick of my 3500lb AWD turbo for my DD style and preferences. Just too boring. FRS is what I use for MPG and hauling stuff at the minimum amount of handling and braking performance I expect in a DD. That's it. However, the high speed stability, aero efficiency and high cornering speeds have been superb. Performance wise nothing in the same price does as well in those areas either without the other combination of factors the FRS does well. The amount of high speed I can sustain on both on and off ramps with a composed yawn is phenomenal for the price. Slices through air like butter and feels planted like a fan car (a little hyperbole there). It doesn't even break a sweat. Plus with only two chassis mods, it feels more solid than any German car I've driven. Taut and tight like a billet slug. For the price it's a pretty cool car.

I did have the Alfa 4C in my sights but as the word has come that the US model will push 2450-2650lbs I have said no effing way to that. That was going to be my next MR, probably just do a Mono instead.

thank you so much fatoni! i'm so happy youre stilling ruining every FRS thread since 2011. I know I can always count on you.

A while back a magazine put better tires on a BRZ/FR-S, a Mustang V6 and a BMW and tested them. The Mustang still beat the twin around the track so the tires are not necessarily the twin's kryptonite. I love the twins but I get annoyed when claims are constantly made that every road test is flawed because the twins have terrible tires.

Google search for the video. I am sure it is still out there.

Should have compared an Elise or Exige instead of the 86. Sorry, but neither a new Cayman nor a new Alfa 4c belongs in any mashup with an 86 variant... they're just not in the same category of car. I'd have been way more interested to see how they'd compare the Alfa to a Lotus, since they're obviously similar cars in many respects (although my toy car money would definitely go in the British direction).

It was Motortrend. IT was a BS test because they used different wheels and tires for each car. It was basically a marketing video. The BRZ picks up 2 seconds on the RnT video until they lose 7/10ths by plus sizing which ruined the gear ratios making the car slower. If the package is bigger and weighs more, the Mustang is better suited to actually using it because it has more power and cylinders to take advantgae of more traction. It would have also been better to get different sector times on the MT video to see differences between uphill and downhill performance.

That's the same crew that also got 1 sec less on SoW w/ the BRZ compared to the V6 Stang. Then when comparing the Fiesta ST they admitted to having been faster than the V6 Stang using the FRS. Go figure. None of these tests are definitive at revealing anything except pandering to youtube hits.

If you look at slalom times and skidpad #'s, better tires do show quite obviously on the ZN6 platform massive improvement. It just needs power to use it. Without the power, it can't generate the speed to push the tires and chassis.

Im excited to see a 4c on the street.

i think the issue is that people overestimate how handicapped the frs is by tires. that test proved that tires is holding back its competition by at least as much as the frs. power is important and many people on this forum refuse to believe that. marketing video or not, the frs went from the worst tire in the video to the best yet showed the least gains. we can talk about the pros and cons of the twins plattform but it shows that tires dont change the frs into the car that people insist it is.

i just find it a bit strange that people cant accept the car for what it is.

i was checking 2013 values and i used the base miata. like i said, i dont know if the market has changed. either way, i think we agree that diminishing returns works on both sides of the frs.

It is certainly a more complicated question when looking at tires/chassis issues. The benefit will clearly manifest itself in slalom type events and perhaps auto-x. Obviously if a magazine is out there drifting the BRZ/FRS around a track for a review, a new set of rubber should help lay down a better time. On SoW w/ Motortrend, they didn't seem to have issues w/ oversteer like they did w/ the FRS, likely due to more neutral behavior of the BRZ, so who knows what differences if any would show up on the FRS in the same hands. The brakes might be a big problem too, the stock units don't perform that well even on stock tires let alone upgraded tire compound.

What irks me is the Tire Rack/MT experiment where they put Michelin PSS on the Stang which weigh the same as the stock Primacy, yet put RE11A on the BRZ which is 4lbs/corner more. They gave the car w/ less cylinders and torque 16lbs more rotational mass than the other. And 5 different rims? I mean come on. And what's wrong w/ using Buttonwillow? Less elevation change and more speed. Btw, it did improve even w/ the heavier tires more than the BMW so it didn't see the least gain as you said.

I'm pretty happy that a new set of wheels and street tires can take a stock BRZ/FRS to 71.2mph and 0.96g. Those are very good numbers that are useful and noticeable on the street, and comparable to some much more expensive cars on RnT's data logs. If that's not translating into better track times than I expect, find out where the actual problem is.

Anyone expecting slicks on a BRZ/FRS w/ 150lbft @ 2750lbs to pick up 10-15 secs a lap w/o doing anything else is obviously misguided. Cars are complete systems and everything needs to be balanced together.

i would have to put the re11 ahead of the pss in performance, there isnt directly observed data in the video so i see where youre coming from. i have no problems with buttonwillow. they go to streets a lot and im not sure why but if i had to speculate, it would be because its probably the best track for eliminating power from the equation. it could also be because they are still a business and have to live within their means. again, i dont have any problems with the twins (well i do but its really besides the point and nitpiciking) but like it or not its an overhyped car and i think the miata is an underrated car.