@C4RBON: Were we crazy ever to think anyone could do a cool little car for $20k?

I don't know.

Some of the $20k or less cars that are on the market now would be cool, if they had RWD.

I agree. If someone were too just make a fun, lightweight, rwd sports car that got good fuel efficiency and was cheap to insure, I'm sure tons of people would buy one for a daily driver, yet still be able use it for AutoX on the weekends.

Lets say around 2300 lbs and 180 hp should do the trick. And it shouldn't cost more than any other compact car because it would actually have less amenities.

Oh wait. 2008 is calling. :bonk:

Where the hell did 28k come from? There just ISN'T 28k of car here, any way you look at it! The longer this drags on, the more I think the FT will be like GT5... an under-delivering, over-due disappointment. And that's just because they have been hyping it for so long, it may never be able to live up to expectations.

And I just realized the Gazoo FT86 race car has a gran turismo logo on it. Here's to hoping the next mustang is lighter.:happy0180:

Keep up.

I bought used for 30k.

Both GTI and Integra type r was 23k OTD brand new

911 is an antique from an uncle

2800 pounds and/or $28k would be bad. That article is BS anyway.

BTW, removing A/C, spotlights, and spare wouldn't save 200 pounds.


Torque at the wheels doesn't work that way. Your wheels spin slower than your engine, and the transmission multiplies your engine torque so that your wheel torque is much greater (you maximize wheel torque at any given vehicle speed by using the gear ratio that puts you closest to peak power).


I doubt it'll make 210 HP or 170 ftlbs.


This isn't about need.

And another thing: How is it that Car and Driver got everything so wrong? What was the point of Subaru taking the press out in an option-laden (assuming that that is the reason for the high weight and price numbers) AT example of what has been touted as a light sports car? It sounds like a day on which everyone was deliberately putting their worst foot forward. How is that supposed to build interest and anticipation?

No press release, no care.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again: these magazine "write-ups" are garbage. C&D is trying to stir up shit. The public has seen this as a Toyota project from day one and Subaru is butt-hurt about it. Subaru would never compromise their 'AWD in everything' image unless forced to by someone like...Toyota. As stated by others, the amount of pictures, videos, and the VLN race itself speaks to Toyota's involvement in the project. If this was Subaru's baby, why didn't they field a car at the Nurburgring?

geez.... calm down please

Toyota has the $$$ and dont forget, they are sharing data with Subaru. If the cars will be the same mechanically, then Subaru doesnt have to waste $$$ for running another car. They will just use Toyota's Data and probably there could of been some Subaru employee's at the VLN race assisting with the 86.

I'm perfectly calm. I just find it absurd that Subaru is bitching to C&D about what is supposed to be a joint project. The quotes C&D uses colors Subaru as whiny and catty. Subaru did a tremendous amount of work, but chose to do it behind the scenes. If they want the public to know how much of their blood, sweat, and tears went into this project, then they should market or create an advertising campaign that reflects this.

If I was a Subaru exec. I would be most displeased with the engineers or whoever was involved with this article. It certainly could complicate the relationship between Subaru and Toyota.

Speaking of, can anyone speak to the rapport between the two companies (friendly, hostile, competitive??)

I agree

Is it possible that someone faked this and made it look official? one thing I do not understand is, if this is real then... Why would their figures be so ***** up. ( HP/torque/price/weight???)
( maybe it is real LOL, I hope not)

You kids make me laugh.

By the way, it's rapport.

Because that's not something auto manufacturers usually do with pre-production prototypes. IMO, the VLN race speaks more to Toyoda-san's love of motorsports and his bromance with Dr. Ulrich.

There's a saying that goes something like this: Don't take a car to the track unless you can afford to crash it, and don't race a car unless you can afford to set it on fire and push it off a cliff. These cars aren't being efficiently stamped out in mass quantities they were hand built and in very small numbers. In fact there may only be two or three in all of Europe. And while the material value of these cars is irrelevant, they'll all be crushed in a few months anyway for tax purposes, they are still needed for testing. And even though the Gazoo Racing car came through unscathed, it's now useless for pre-production testing/tuning due to the welded in roll cage. Even if Subaru wanted to take a BRZ to go racing, I really doubt they could justify ruining a second prototype in order to do so.

What do you mean, you mean the way I talk? What? I’m a little fucked up maybe, but I’m funny how, I mean funny like I’m a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I’m here to fuckin’ amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?

I think it's great PR. It shows the President of the largest (or there about) car company in the world is proudly standing behind his product. Not only that, it shows the confidence Toyoda-san has in the car; to preform and to live up to the expectations established for the FT-86.

At this point in the game, with only about a month left until the debut a loss of either a BRZ or FT86 would cause some panic but wouldn't produce a "WTF are we going to do?" scenario. As you said, I don't think Toyota would race the car if they couldn't afford to write it off (both from a testing/engineering or financial standpoint.)

uuuh, wouldn´t say so. About 3/4 to half a year before SOP they start building on pre-series assy-lines and the body also comes out of proper tools and isn´t welded by hand anymore.
Of course, they don´t produce hundreds of them in a week and the cars aren´t "cheap" yet. But they don´t have only 5 or 10 of them. More sth. between 50 and 200.
The 2 to 5 cars they build for the catalogue photo sessions surely cost about 5 times more than this racer. Leave one of these out and you´ve saved enough to finance the whole racing weekend.

I thought some of you were a little emotional, but I could have been mistaken.

LOL you are funny!

:lol: Just Golden.

How many times of topic now? I'd love to (if I had time) go through one of the longer threads and find a ratio of onTopoc:offTopic haha
I'm gonna say 1.5:1 :p

I just got back from the short trip to Japan. At the bookstore at the Haneda airport, I was able to find some Japanese car magazines with the cover featureing the FT-86. Due to my limited Japanese, I was not able to comprehend the article in full, but was able to confirm the following;

1) At least in Japan, 3 trims will be offered, "GT model" being the lightest and cheapest around 1150kg. (don't remember the yen price)

2) the difference in weight and price between the trims appeared to be quiet substantial.

3) 200 bhp/ 16x tq (sorry, didn't have much time to read and memorize the article as the flight time was approaching) Little surprised to see the hp figure at exactly "200".

4) The article mentioned about 15 and 16 inch-size wheels being offered...( maybe pertinent to the domestic model only?)

5) Confimation of other info that has already been verified here; torsen lsd, 6 speed, push-start button, etc. (the picture of shifter looked really cool!)

6) Based on the picture of front bucket-type seat, at least the top portion of the seat looked really aggressive with good support to the extent of aftermarket ones.

Not sure how accurate this article is, but at least from the look of it, it appeared to be more credible than the C&D article with detailed pictures and info about trim modes, etc. Too bad that my poor Japanese was limiting to understand the article in full. Just sharing the info with you guys!

ummm, why didn´t you just buy that magazine? http://www.tyandriel.de/smile/gruebel.gif

thanks for the info anyway :thanks:

Unfortunately, didn't have yen left on hands as I was leaving the country.

I read that directly from a dyno chart of a stock s2000...

The prototypes/concepts may not all be crushed?
Subaru has a big storage Faclity somewhere in Japan that has quite a number of there prototype/concept cars being stored.
They get taken out once a year and washed, then parked back up.
Mind you one or two may also end up in Toyotas or Subarus Musesums.


I also remember reading an artical that some one put up on this site...
Sounded like Prehaps Subaru may show a special racing verson of BRZ at Tokyo Auto show???????
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1892

I think this is how it works. I am just guessing though, as I have never used or operated a dyno.

The dyno measures wheel speed and wheel torque. Using this info, the wheel power can be calculated.

Engine power = Wheel power + losses

Using engine speed and engine power, engine torque can be calculated.

Mathematically its sound.

All a dyno measures is the rolls rpm over time. With the known moment of inertia of the dyno rolls and a car specific factor all the rest is calculated.

If the results are good depends on a proper mechaniccal use of the dyno and a realistic car´s factor. Plenty of playground to fake a sheet.

I'm pretty sure some dynos apply real load to the wheels. What you're talking about is using the inertia as the load. There would be a nightmare's worth of assumptions and correction factors necessary to get meaningful results... I don't doubt it is possible though. Probably the cheapest option , too.

I know engine dynos actually apply a known load to the engine to see what RPM the engine can hold it at. I thought some wheel dynos did this as well.

The wikipedia article has good info on the different types of dynos.

Some do. You average dynojet doesn't (the LC series do I believe but I've never seen one anywhere). Mustang dynos are great for a loading dyno but many people don't like the low numbers they show.

Loading dynos are an absolute must for any real tuning IMO. WOT tuning on something like a Dynojet 248 is fine but that's literally all you can really do with one, oh and show off numbers. Dynapacks I would NEVER use, they put an insane load on wheel bearings (think huge wheel spacers) and are useless for anything other than portability and numbers.

This thread is now about dynos.

I like turtles.

Turtle on a dino

































http://www.ict.mic.ul.ie/websites/20...urtle_fact.jpg

:laughabove: :bellyroll: :lol:

This place is better than most forums' Off-Topic lounges.

im 12, what is this?

What's printed on the chart is not wheel torque, rather it's engine torque minus system losses (which can be calculated from wheel force * velocity / engine speed).

At 4000 RPM in 1st gear, an AP1 S2k's wheel torque is around 1630 ftlbs. In 6th gear it's around 420 ftlbs. At 6500 RPM, those numbers are around 1940 ftlbs and 500 ftlbs.

Two words: camera phone :D

Just kidding, thanks for posting all that. Not surprisingly, the reported numbers are all over the place. Hopefully, that japanese mag ends up being more accurate than C&D.

/thread.

Let's be honest Dave, this thread ended pages ago. :bonk:

I cant wait to see when we actualy have tech to talk about and diy threads, a oilcooler diy thread is gonna turn into how to cook a turkey dinner....

I like turkey.

yep, you´re right, I have to admit. There are different types of dynos. But loading or inertia is irrelevant, from the mathematical point of view. They differ in the types of variables and measured values. If the numbers are "true", both should spit out the same result.
The loading ones deliver the more exact results in reality, yes. Because more assumed/determined values are measurable ones here. An inertia one with a 60ft diameter roll would deliver reliable results, too, because the relevance of the assumed values is lower.

And the most/nearly all dynos you see on shows or meetings or at the tuner store around the corner are the inertia ones. They´re good enough to test a difference before and after tuning a car at a reasonable pricetag. And to have some nice numbers to show your friends.
That´s also why you often find big differences between the measurements of a car from 3 different dynos.

As Dave said: the "good"/loading dynos show low numbers. Mostly, because the operator is a real Pro and not interested in giving you a tweaked sheet for your smile ;) and if I see bare numbers from a dyno run I don´t believe anything without a look on the graphs.
Nevertheless: all of these dynos work with factors to consider the powertrain. And the result may vary according to these.
A real powersheet of your engine is only measurable on an engine dyno.

wtf... :popcorn: