I totally understand, but the demographic Scion is targeting too 25k might be a little steep considering what you get.

When Scion says affordable I would expect about 22k and fully loaded at about 24.5k .

That price will fit perfect in the Scion lineup.

Iq: 15k
xD: 16k
xB: 17k
tC: 19k
FRS: 22k

And i've heard a pickup truck is set to make a debut for Scion in 2014.
(Random )

I'm with you on the pricing, demographic or not (I'm way outside the so called Scion demographic). When I said mid 20's I was thinking up to $25K not above. Should have been more clear.

They going to take a tC and cut the back off it? El tCamino?

Companies with large exports typically have pre-arranged long-term currency swap agreements with banks/financial sector. So short-term fluctuations in exchange rates don't matter. Over the long-term countries with consistently appreciating currency (if there was such a thing) would experience a slowdown in wage growth, negating the effect of nominal exchange rate. So yeah, exchange rate movements are secondary. Especially in business that's not labor intensive, such as car production.

I wouldn't put too much stock in looking at how the FRS works in scions line up. This car was a FT86 first and foremost. It wasn't until very late in the overall process that it was branded a scion. the US market is important, but this car was not designed with Scion in mind. if there is overlap with other models, or if it priced "too high for a scion" that is just a result of it being a scion in name only.

Everything from Toyota is scion in name only

i do agree that this would be a much more reasonable price and hope they can get it that low. regardless, i still stand by my point that this car doesn't NEED boost or NEED more torque just to be competitive. it would be a nice extra, but it doesn't NEED it to be a good car for the price.

The car is definitely good with what it has for the price. The only competition for this car is realisticly the genesis coupe and to a lesser extent the miata. It was definitely competitive with both of those cars during its design, but the new engine the GC definitely hurts the FRS/BRZ a little. Hopefully the lower curb weight will make up for that.

However, with more power, this car could be competitive with a greater number of cars. At 270hp & 230 ft-lb you could be compete with a 370z, and approach a mustang GT. The extra cost to put in the new WRX motor along with the necessary suspension tweaks and brake upgrade that would be required by branding if not driving necessity would also make it come in a with a grand of either of those as well (figure a limited at 27/28 + $5k).

See below.

Same power, same weight, same driver, comparable tires, very similar times.

wut. I think you mean no such thing as a "totally free and unrestricted market." But that's a newbie mistake.;)

Define what you mean by 'free market' in application to buying cars and I'll tell you where you're assuming too much relative to how things work in the real world.

Nice pissing match you two. dsgerbc loves to argue.

Since you apparently have no idea what's been happening with the Japanese currency for the last three years I'm not going to be the one to drag you out from under the rock. If you are interested though a simple google search will uncover quite a bit of information. https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=o...w=1280&bih=675

And since you seem to believe the auto industry is immune to such things you should read this, from the first page of that search: http://www.autoevolution.com/news/ye...eas-37868.html

Here's a beauty from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44071217/ns/business-autos/:

But yeah you're right, exchange rates are totally secondary :slap:

^I'm fully aware of what's going on in Japan and in the auto industry. Some people just like to blame things on the exchange rate. Decision to build a factory overseas is the same as 'outsourcing' here in US. It works until it doesn't, and then you're stuck. I didn't say exchange rate isn't important at all, but it's waaaay a secondary factor (because short-term you can hedge your business from fluctuations and in the longer run other prices adjust, bringing _real_ exchange rate back in line). Exchange rate might've been a tipping factor in the linked article, but the weight of the issue alone is likely small. Transportation costs in a world of high oil prices are likely to factor a lot more into the decision. And anyone who bases long-term strategic decisions on a directional forecast of the exchange rate is stupid. Exchange rates are almost unpredictable, and the best forecast for X years into the future is where the exchange rate is today.

Exchange rate movement quickly hurt exporters when they are:
a) small and can't justify establishing financial hedges (not true for auto-manufacturers)
b) price things in export markets according to domestic price X exchange rate. Nobody in auto business does this. Most cars are "priced to market".
c) banks walk-out on pre-arranged rates. This happens, but not too often.

Over the longer run, if exchange rates persist (and hedges at old rates expire), they will bite, but the firms should have plenty of time to prepare, alter cost structure and otherwise mitigate the issue.

Should we all divide into Team Dsgerbc and Team Corey? ;)

Clearly you know something that Honda does not.

This is exactly WHY the situation is so hard on Toyota. They are pricing their product to be competitive in the US market, despite what it costs to produce it in yen. I already posted the equivelant USD prices for the Japanese models. You should have noticed they are about 10 THOUSAND dollars in excess of the speculated US pricing. Of course it's unrealistic for Toyota to sell cars in America at price, so they won't try. However what that means is a huge cut into the car's profit margin for Toyota, and that's before you even start factoring in things like added cost of transportation to the US.


Sarcasm aside, I can give you the means to learn but I cannot force you to do it. If you would like to stay blind in your ignorance I cannot stop you, but please don't spread that filth on a public forum. Others here are interested in knowing the the facts regardless of whether or not they line up with their own preconceived notions, and may unknowingly accept your delusions as truths.

Lol, an attempt at so many hurtful words. Makes me laugh somehow. PM me, I'll supply you with paypal account so that you can give me the means to learn.
Seriously though, I accept your capitulation, since I don't see any attempt to argue your point.

UPD: since you updated your post with something:

That's meaningless. You're not comparing producer cost, but retail prices. Those things depend on a lot of taxes, corporate and otherwise, target country demographics/demand strength and many other factors.

The tC isn't sold anywhere else as a Toyota. the current gen xB was built with its predecessor (and Scion) in mind.

The first xB and xA were basically Japanese echos (tweaked enough for a sciond release), and I don't know enough about the iQ to comment.

Before we get this ball rolling, how about some credentials from the two of you. Neither of you have been citing supporting sources, so I only have the strengths of your arguments to go on, and honestly, I'm good with international trade law, but economics are not my forte.

Age.
Education.
Employment. (If you don't want to get too specific, just say the field.)

Meh, that's called 'pulling rank', it's less boring w/o it.

Oh dear, that would just give them the opportunity to start using ad hominems :bellyroll:

14 pages and going strong.

Not if one of you is an investment banker, a market analyst, economics professor, or some other finance professional and the other is a high school junior quoting Wikipedia and Economics for Dummies. It'd be helpful for me to figure out who is and isn't talking out of their asses.

I recently read a debate between a VFA 106 (Hornet training squadron, all models) flight instructor and a fleet F/A-18C driver on the merits of the -18C/D vs the -18E/F in basic fighter maneuvers. It got heated and there were certainly ad hominem attacks, but both parties were stunningly qualified to speak on the matter. Credibility is always an issue on the internet, and people shy away from presenting credentials in fear of either being called a liar or accused of showing off. I'd like to point you to gadflyii's post in this thread stating his experience with a plethora of cars, and one of the first reactions being one of incredulity.

This is the internet, man! Nobody here would stoop so low.

Sarcasm aside, ad hominem attacks simply betray weakness of an argument. If you can't beat someone on the merits, you can't beat them. And an educated audience will see right through that. And who are you speaking to, if not an educated audience.

The tC is sold as a Toyota in other parts of the world. It's called the Toyota Zelas.

And I stand by my claim, that 22k-23k is just right for this car. Toyota wants this car affordable, and make money.

If the FRS is 25k, I can't imagine the price for a BRZ! The limited trim would be pushing 30k!

If the FR-S is too much, than Scion/Toyota would lose sales, along with Subaru because if someone can't afford a FRS. Than it's just common sense they cannot afford a BRZ...

Please TOYOTA if you're listening make the FRS 22k-23k!!!!:happyanim:

That would be an interesting conversation to be part of. What did they conclude? That the F-22 would kick their butts in the end anyways? :bellyroll:

No no no.
If movies have taught me anything, US fly-boys settle things via beach volleyball.

Meh, trust no one, evaluate everything yourself ;)

Case in point: I know a few "fast autox guys" with lots of experience etc, who have no idea what makes them fast. Things they say contradict basic physics ;)

They might not be able to, but a chassis engineer with some data recorders would.

I have been posting my sources, please click the links in my posts.

I don't see how any credentials or experience matter. I have provided sources of the quotes I used, and even a google search filled with information supporting what I have been saying. To call this an argument would imply there is some merit to what dsgerbc is saying. Exchange rates aren't some big secret and no one besides dsgerbc is trying to hold the wool over your eyes. All I have to do is turn on my local news to hear about the problems associating with the strengthening of the yen in the world market, the toll it's taken on Japan's export economy, etc. This isn't complicated.

The 86 is produced in Japan.
It will be sold in America.
The strengthening of the yen vs the american dollar means that the cost to produce the car rises relative to the american dollar.

I cannot comprehend what you don't understand about that. Toyota is trying to price the car to be competitive in the American market, yes. That means that at best the strengthening of the yen is cutting into the profit margin of the car, or at worst they are taking a loss on every car sold. It isn't a stretch to say Toyota would sooner raise the price of the car than sell it at a loss. There is no magic here.

Well, I agree it's meaningless when you quote a single sentence and take it out of context.

Most people considered it cheating... but this still happened...


http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...boasts-f-.html

It took all of a couple minutes to find this:

from http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-09/yen-emulating-franc-places-toyota-led-japan-rebound-in-jeopardy

from http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204368104577139123595062492.html

from http://dollarcollapse.com/inflation/currency-wars-%E2%80%9Cstrong-yen-is-destroying-japanese-industry%E2%80%9D/

from http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a5df927c-1b63-11e1-8b11-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1oyfiuzhA

from http://ycharts.com/analysis/story/but_for_the_mighty_yen_toyotas_annus_horribilis_wo uld_be_a_distant_memory

Now here is what you are saying:



At least if people read this thread now the information is here for them to conclude you are delusional by themselves.

If you keep quoting management that tries to spin its poor profits in a way that makes it appear less of a management failure I see little point debating.

The real reason here is management failure. Just for the sake of illustration: suppose in 2007 you have a 5 year deal with some financial sector firm to swap your dollar revenue for yen at a rate of 95 yen/dollar. So now you're in 2010 for example, exchange rate is ~80 and it looks like there's zero chance of renewing your swap arrangement at the same rate when it's up in two years, but you have that time. Prudent management would start preparing: cut costs, relocate R&D personnel (to U.S. for example), find alternative suppliers for large and expensive parts (say China/Korea/U.S.) etc. Sure, cutting domestic wages is hard, but wage bill (attributed domestically, thus not declining with the strengthening yen) is only 10-15% of the cost of the car, so it's not too big of a problem. Not so prudent management: "hey, this exchange rate movement is temporary (safe heaven effect, crisis in Europe etc, whatever), let's wait it out". So in essence they make a directional bet on exchange rates. Which is always risky as hell. It makes short-term profit look good but costs arm and leg in the long run. This I would attribute to bad management, not exchange rate movement.
There's also a chance that they didn't have their dollar revenue adequately hedged, for whatever reason. That would also be a management failure.

^ Overly optimistic timeline for major shifts in Toyota's R&D, suppliers? I doubt very much such massive changes can be fully implemented in a two year window. No doubt Toyota will offshore much of its production as soon as it can swing it, but in the meantime it will use all the levers it can (including PR and media) to push the authorities into doing something about that exchange rate.

So now you're telling me that Japan's economic crisis is a conspiracy perpetuated by Toyota's management, and that you know more about financial management than Japan's entire export industry. Cute.

By the way

http://ycharts.com/analysis/story/bu...distant_memory

At least do a little bit of research before you begin spouting drivel.

Ratio of rudeness to coherent argument has exceeded the threshold beyond which I don't bother to reply.

Excuse me, I didn't realize we were arguing. I was under the impression you were just on some tyrade against common knowledge and wanted to make sure the rest of the forum didn't get caught up in the crossfire.

Anyway to summarize what I've been saying and put it in a context that clearly demonstrates its relevance to this thread:

Japan's export based economy has been strongly affected by the weakening of major currencies like the USD. Toyota is strongly affected, even more so than competitors, because they still produce many of their cars in Japan where the cost to produce the car rises in relation to the USD as the yen appreciates. This means that when the car reaches American soil it has to either be priced higher to make up for the relatively rising cost of production, or sold at a price that is competitive in the US market but likely at a net loss for Toyota. As evidenced in the big list of quotes I posted on page 14, up to this point Toyota has largely been eating the costs themselves rather than raising prices.

So what does this have to do with HP?

As we all know, more power means more money for the additional cost of a turbo, its related hardware, etc. Naturally this means the cost of the car would also increase. Toyota however is trying to sell this car to a specific market which means keeping it within a certain price range (I think I read they want it to be accessible to people just out of college?). Given their current financial situation, selling the car as is in the US at their target price is very likely a losing endeavor for them (again, as evidenced by various sources on page 14). This means any additional production costs to the car either come directly out of Toyota's pocket or the consumer's, and the latter option runs the risk of pushing the car out of its intended market entirely which is potentially disastrous as it was never meant to compete with something like a Z out of the box. Given Toyota's current financial situation (page 14..) they are not in any position to do the former either.

There's obviously a lot more to it than that, and I'm not even touching engineering or design choices, but that's basically what it boils down to on the sales side. The exchange rate plays a direct role in Toyota's profits and right now the strengthening of the yen against the dollar is taking a huge toll on the company.

First tell me if you are referring to MSRP or actual dealer invoice prices. I need a point of reference so that I don't bring a guitar to a banjo duel.