Me insecure? You're the one using sexual references to get your point across.

Just a bit.

How did this even turn into an auto vs manual debate??

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1725

Your post is actually very true. For racing, a paddle shifter is much better than 3 pedals. There's a reason why F1, Rally, and just about every other major race organization has cars with paddle shifters.You're also correct about not having to worry about shifting when getting the milk, and that with a high performance auto, you get all the enjoyment you want when you need it, and can zone out when you don't.

Also, I am not against these automatics as most other people are on this forum, but I can understand where they are coming from. Us MT guys are a dying breed, and we don't like our sports cars having auto slushboxes, it's a slap to our faces.

The thing auto guys don't seem to understand is that having the third pedal is about involvement. Everytime you get in the car is an event, something you have to use all of your limbs for. With respect to the people that have missing limbs, being an intricate part of the car is something that requires more attention than just mashing the gas pedal. Now I can understand that sometimes you just want to go in and drive somewhere without feeling like it's an event, but I can tell you, everytime I get in my car I enjoy it, and I know the same feeling is not present when the car is an automatic.

My girlfriend's dad had a G37S, with the slushbox, and I can report, it was good, very good. The shifts were crisp and quick, the paddle was responsive, the upshifts blipped the gas, it was outrageously good. However, I remember getting in to drive hime around a number of times, and the excitement just wasn't there, I just put it in auto and went about my business. Not having the third pedal to worry about was something that made the car less enjoyable.

Don't worry though, your A/T group is in good company, the head of the M division spells it out very well. He states that manuals are not good for the executive transporting clients around, since abrupt shifting or clutch mistakes can be embarrassing. So there, you can see, even in BMW's M division, you've got good company.

Um, didn't this thread start as "Omg is Subie srs or r dey havinz a laff?"

On that note, has any light been shed on that? Any new info about the article in question?

Of course, the one time I actually mess that up! I'm normally pretty good with grammar. Oh well.

That's the thing. 90% of those cars are bought by the bank of mommy and daddy. I'm helping my dad with the payments of the 'R-S lol

Always happens on this forum lol...

Personally I think manual is just infinitely cooler than auto and it makes me happy to see a manual car in America where everyone seems to have auto, but it's fine if other people want auto. Personal choice :P

It's been pretty much established that this has very unverified figures, and that it's basically a filler article until the car is released.

I have to agree and disagree. While more and more people are buying automatics, the percentage of manual drivers is surely decreasing...but that doesn't mean manufacturers are going to stop making performance cars with MTs. So what if there are fewer MT drivers as long as the MT cars are still there for me to buy?

Another thing I don't get is why we [MT drivers] give a crap about what Joe Schmoe driver is doing with his left foot. If I buy a Corvette and I'm driving around town loving my car and I see another Corvette, I'm not going to start wondering...hm I wonder if that ahole has an automatic or a manual. Truth is, I just don't give a crap what someone else has/drives. Their $, their choice.

There's no argument, an MT is more engaging than any other sort of automated transmission, but so what? It's not like I'm switching from first person to third person in a video game. I'm still in the car, shifting my gears with a paddle, turning my wheels with a steering wheel. Instead of 100% engaged, I'm 99.5% engaged? I can probably accept that. (I've only driven friends paddle shifted cars on short drives.) If I'm really that concerned with being one with my car, I might as well cut out the power steering and power everything else. I should have to feel those gears turning when I roll up my window. Or does that not count?

G37S are boring cars. My uncle has a 87 Grand National with an automatic transmission and every time we take it out we're freaking drunk with excitement. Don't blame the type of transmission a car has, because the car as a whole is boring. Even an MT G37S is boring, more engaging? Yes, but still boring.

To each his/her own. As far as the FRS is concerned, if I get one, it'll be MT only because they've said there won't be any high tech automatic option. So it really leaves just the MT. :happy0180:

:offtopic: I don't see a great deal of point towards this argument... it's clear no one is changing anyone's minds and everyone has their own opinion and preferences. This is like an argument on youtube.... it's pointless, and annoying. I get that it's a thing of passion MT is more involved, AT is more convenient. Different people and different walks of life. But c'mon really? we all share something in common, we have an interest in these cars. So let's talk about more important things like how Subaru is tooting it's own horn! How dare they the bastards!!!! LOL :respekt:

@82mm Completely agree!

I have been following this car for a while. I have really liked the concepts from Toyota/Scion. Over the past few weeks, i'm starting to lean towards getting a 370z. This is turning out to be an ugly, under-powered subaru. My RX-8 has "232HP" and 0-60 in 6sec. I'm not going to pay more for a toyota/subaru that has worse performance!! The front looks good, but the tail lights are terrible!!!

Used 350z > 370z

my friend

Out of curiosity, are we believing that the AT that Toyota/Subaru is using is based off the Aisin one that the Miata currently employs?

I was just reading this from one of the earlier forum posts that links to an older post: http://www.autosite.com/content/shar...le_id_int/1415

^Though I wonder if its more of the Miata being a fun car, and the transmission didn't really matter?

And assuming there's some tinge of truth in this C&D article, has the magazine ever even liked a particular automatic transmission before? Its been a while since I picked up C&D to read.

If you've been following this car for "a while" like you say, you would also know that comments like yours have been dished out for "a while" as well. Comments complaining about "Oh this car sucks, it doesn't have XXX hp and 0-60 in X.XX seconds!" If you've followed for "a while" you'd probably have also read how annoyed many of us are with these comments. If you don't care about power:weight and live your life "one quarter mile at a time", then go suck a 'Stang and GTFO.

Notice that I currently own an RX8... so I'm obviously not too worried about "XXX hp and 0-60 in X.XX seconds!" My car is not amazing off the line, but it is fun to drive! Just saying that for $28K, that car has a lot to make up for if it has a 2.0L and 210HP. If they put out something that looked like the concept, i'd probably buy it.. But the spy shots are showing an uninspired POS. For that price, it better come with a Mr. Fusion.

"Used 350z > 370z"?? Have you driven both?? 350z was a terrible car!! I chose the rx8 over it. 370z is far superior.. and guess what... only a few more thousand than the BRZ...

I still have some hope that the production Toyota will look descent and be fun to drive. But they are screwed if they think they can price it with the rx8 or 370z

@velocity, it will NOT cost 28K. This article is BS.

370z is terrible.

only good thing to come out of it is the nifty Transmission down shift they put in the Manual.

And RX-8 is even worst than the 370z and 350z. Chassis stiffness is lacking, and engine performance is lacking, in addition to not being lightweight for a car with such a tiny engine.

I actually think the GT-R price:performance wise is a damn bargain. As is the z06, and you won't get either new for $60k. Total pipe dream, and a Toyota with Z06 performance at a bargain basement price would be the performance deal of automotive history. I think $50-$60k for a Toyota would buy you C6 Corvette Performance at best.

I think it's absolutely retarded that parents allow kids that young to have cars that fast (gen coupe aside). Absolutely stupid.

:bellyroll: +1

Western hangup? Most everywhere else the ability to drive a stick is not considered special.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :clap:

And this folks is the million dollar question. WTF is going on in here?

you must be on drugs! STOP using them.

edit: the only reason i would buy an FT over a 370z is because i dont have the extra cash to buy the 370z.

oh, but it will cost 28,000. you just dont know it yet! :bellyroll:

It's funny that I see some people on here saying the 370z is terrible. I haven't driven the new one but the 350z was a blast to drive(The one sports car where the manual was easy to drive). And considering everywhere I read said the car was a big improvement mostly in the interior so I can't agree with any of these guys who say otherwise. Maybe it could be that these guys were expecting it to be really light(2800lbs?) and being really light(CR-Z) doesn't necessarily always mean fun. The one thing I love about the Z unlike most light sporty vehicles that's affordable is that you don't have to rev to the moon to enjoy its powerband. The engine is way better than any high rev 4 banger I've driven and the handling felt go-kart like.

Figured as much.

^^^^ A co-worker of mine has a 370z and i get to drive it once in a wile, and the Z is awesome! you feel like ur inside a spaceship, and everybody is looking at you. plus the torque feels great, it just pushes you back to the seat. :) So i think that who ever says that they hate the car obviously has never driven one. :iono:

I drove the 370z and it was phenomenal, i really liked its presence on the road. The rx8 had shit for balls but it rotates better than anything iv driven to date from the factory. The 350z wasn't as impressive as I thought it was going to be, but i guess i was a bit expecting similar performance or better from a 300zxTT because i owned a 92TT in 99.

For those of you who think that the FT will be overpriced in North America, consider that the likely price for me in Singapore will be SGD$165,000....that's a WHOLE lot more than you guys! (oh, for those who need to know what that is in USD.... that's $130,000)

How is the 370z terrible? Have you ever driven it? I have and it's a great car, alot better then the 350z.

Chassis stiffness is lacking? :bonk: RX-8 has an amazing chassis. Perhaps why it handles so well. It is fun to drive and amazing handling. Ride is far superior to the 350z. 370z is pretty close. It got 3rd in Car and Drivers "The Best-Handling Car in America for Less Than $100,000." There are plenty other reviews that show the same thing... just sayin.http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...rx-8_r3_page_7

"Engine performance is lacking" I agree, especially the torque. But I could say the same thing about the engine going into the BRZ. A 2004 RX8 has better performance numbers... I'm still hoping they will add a factory turbo. Unless it gets to about 260HP, it will be hard to seriously consider

Weight comparison
Rx8 2888–3029 lbs
350z 3,188-3,602 lbs
370z 3232 lbs

I would say that weight difference is significant considering the 8 has 4 doors and seats 4.

It's because the VQ35/37 is much heavier than the rotary. I think it's by a couple hundred pounds. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, 370z is a terrible car for the price.

My point has always been used 350z > 370z

so read my post.

$15000 for a used 350z

or

$29900 for a used 370z


Hmmm. And the improvement between the two cars is not huge.


I didn't deny RX8 was a poor handler, i said chassis was lacking stiffness. I should of add "to my liking".

In addition, the point you made about the BRZ doesn't seem to make sense considering this car is speculated to be 20k-24k$. The base model RX-8 if i'm not mistaken is $26k; 370z at $31k.

Also I'm not understanding your point of what PERFORMANCE is. It sounds like you're naming 0-60, and Horsepower, and maybe a bit of weight too.

370z is not a terrible car, but if you say 370z is a terrible car for the price..im inclined to somewhat agree. Especially comparing it to the current mustang, which has very good performance per dollar.

Ha! fair enough. I think a new 370z is a great deal, but I see your point
The difference between the two is significant! I think anyone that has driven both would agree.

BRZ is speculated IN THIS THREAD to be $27K My point was that Subaru better make the car be able compete with cars in that class. Base of $27K would put it with RX8 (base $27K) and 370z (base $31K). BRZ with it's 2.0L 210HP engine would get crushed by the Z and likely lose to the 2004-era, under-powered RX8. (on the track)

If it is prices at $20-$24K, it will be competing with the civic si, WRX, MS 3, etc. That would make more sense with the specs i've seen and i would definitely pass... :thumbdown:

STI version with 300+HP priced similar to a Z would be ideal.

I was dreaming this would be the car to replace my ’04 RX-8 with. Doesn't seem to be shaping up that way. Price doesn’t matter if it’s 'just another nice car'. Even its style has gone from ‘striking concept’ to ‘yet another bar of Toyota soap’, and far from eye candy.

Now the mention of goals of using cheaper, heavier materials plus dismissing turbo power options to save $$ simply means it's yet another ‘compromise car’ - with emphasis on compromise to the detriment of real world performance. Cheap is always more than skin deep.

My '04 RX-8 is already in the performance ballpark mentioned, with the pluses of a sweet interior, awesome 9000rpm redline, and style that grabs attention anywhere it’s driven - plus I own it outright.

I think reality and physics is (unfortunately) yet again about to scuttle everyone’s fantasy of a new-gen lightweight, powerful, but low cost sports car from Toybaru. How sad... but the real truth isn’t known yet... so I'll hold on to a tiny teeny bit of optimism.... but it’s getting less and less as each new tidbit about it is ‘leaked’ pre-intro.

Can we all get back into the topic? I'm kinda lost now.

The problem with that is that your comparing apples to oranges.

2 seat sports car vs 2+2 sport GT coupe

In the 2 seat sports car range there isn't a better performance per dollar than the Z. Sure a Miata is 7k less but the performance difference between the two is like the difference between a base Mustang V6 auto vs a base Corvette manual.



And how the hell can a Z be a terrible car for the money???

.99g/0-60 in 4.8 seconds/ 1/4 mile in 13.4 seconds and the most advanced manual gearbox other than the 7spd Porsche box.

I also find it funny that out of the 4 cars you own 3 of them was well overpriced when they were brand new especially the NSX which I love.

I would just like to say that mechanically and electronically, I'm not seeing anywhere close to $28k here. There aren't any expensive materials, there aren't any new fancy manufacturing processes, the car (even at 2800 lbs) requires less physical material than most other cars. Toyota/Subaru have stated there won't be any fancy driving-related electronics here. I thought I read once upon a time that the base stereo won't have a CD player, so I think its safe to assume there won't be any other 'luxury' electronics inside. The supposed 'spirit' of the car was to be a lightweight, great handling, economical sportscar.

It seems the only really new state-of-the-art part of the car is the engine. But not even that justifies anywhere near $28k.

I predict three possible scenarios based off of the C&D article.

1) The subaru does start at 28k but is loaded with options. Upgraded brakes & suspension, HIDs, leather, nav, good sound system, automatic seats, remote start, blah blah blah. Marketed as such. Meanwhile, the Toyata/Scion is sold without above options at about 22-24k.

To me, this kinda-sorta makes sense. it would distinguish the two versions of the car. However, this would make the BRZ more expensive than the current gen WRX, which will still be the faster and more practical car. They might try to distinguish it on fuel efficiency, but not with the mpg numbers listed in C&D they wont.

2) Toyata/Subaru have discovered/believe the market has changed since this project was conceived. They are changing something about the car's target market to accommodate.

This is a distinct possibility. The new generation of compact cars is the best its ever been. The new Focus, Impreza, Elantra, Cruze, etc are all much better than their predecessors (and very good in their own right). If the FT were too inexpensive, it would have been overshadowed by more practical and efficient cars. As a result, the FT could be pulled upmarket to be an efficient alternative to the mustang, etc. They won't sell as many and the car will be a niche vehicle that we will all pine about in 20 years.

3) Car and driver is full of it.

I hope this is the real issue. However, I am sure that the big car mags have really good insider information. Its their job to get information about new and upcoming cars. I would think that they have some good information to go on. I might add that this is not the first time I have seen the est. price that high in C&D. Sept 2011 issue pegs the FR-S base price at $28k, too. As others have said, they may just be cushioning the blow. But they are sticking to their story.

---

As others have said, if the C&D numbers are correct, you can count me out. It will be a shame, though, since I have been eagerly following the development of this car since long before this website existed.

I am in the market for a new car this spring. I am really hoping the Tokyo auto show reveals lots of concrete facts. Not just more concepts and speculation. I want to see production sheetmetal, production price, and production specs. I need information I can make decisions on! If it is cheap enough and efficient enough, I would buy it in a heartbeat, knowing that a shortly down the road I could afford to buy a second, more practical (ie bigger) car.

This man sounds like a sane person. :happy0180:




(How did he get in here? :bellyroll: )

Man, you one legged Americans are very touchy.

Is it too late for me to take that back?


Back on topic .. If you want to find out what the auto feels like, got drive an automatic STi. As Subaru did all the engineering work on this project, that's the gearbox that will almost undoubtedly be going in there.

Same here. Before this article, I was ready to go put a desposit on the car after Tokyo, if the weight was around 2600lbs and the price was below 23 or 24k. Everything I had read before this article led me to believe that those numbers were possible. After reading this article, I am not really excited about the car anymore. I hope that C&D is full of it, but it is not like this is some blog reporting on rumors they heard. The author had a meeting with Subaru engineers and that is where he got these estimates from. I have a hard time believing they are completely made up. Even if they are not exactly right, they will probably not be far from the real numbers. I am fully prepared to be disappointed in the news from Tokyo.