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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Engine, Exhaust, Transmission (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   Injector / seal failure or Miss-fire codes.. please post here (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36008)

ft_sjo 05-31-2013 12:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TemeCal (Post 971411)
It's my understanding, that you need the seals/collars fixed...then update the ECU with a supposed fix to prevent it from happening again. I believe it retards the timing over 5200rpm when accelerating.
No.

It retards spark over 5200rpm WHEN THE CLUTCH IS DEPRESSED.

TemeCal 05-31-2013 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ft_sjo (Post 971558)
No.

It retards spark over 5200rpm WHEN THE CLUTCH IS DEPRESSED.
Fair enough. I was going off the TSB posted, which states during acceleration. Where does it officially state this? Not doubting you, just trying to stay informed over the ordeal I'm in right now with my dealer. Thanks!

sw20kosh 05-31-2013 01:50 AM
How much does it cost to buy a set of direct injectors? Are they readily available?

d4m45cuz 05-31-2013 03:08 AM
Hello everyone,

Got my car back today (dropped off Tuesday) after it exhibited symptoms indicating failure of Cyl #1 DI seal. Sure enough, that's what the issue was. Toyota flashed ECU and replaced seals, which got rid of the firecrackers under my hood. As I was driving away, I got a CEL and proceeded to pull over and dump the codes. Disappointed to see P0351. Gonna call around tomorrow to see if I can buy an ignition coil from either Toyota or Subaru for my FRS. I have around 34000 miles on mine. Already have an email in to epifan. Gonna be sending them in a dump of my ECU so they can compare.

Here is a pic of my DIs:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3.../IMG951327.jpg

CSG Mike 05-31-2013 03:14 AM
What kind of driving conditions does your car see?

d4m45cuz 05-31-2013 03:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 971816)
What kind of driving conditions does your car see?
Streets of Willow once about 3 weeks after purchase, AutoX multiple times Mulholland a bunch, drive from LA to Tempe, Arizona twice and LA to Vegas once. The rest is a minimum of 60 miles of 'spirited' driving in commuter traffic a day.

whitefrs 05-31-2013 06:26 AM
That looks bad

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

RAWR BRZ 05-31-2013 07:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4m45cuz (Post 971826)
Streets of Willow once about 3 weeks after purchase, AutoX multiple times Mulholland a bunch, drive from LA to Tempe, Arizona twice and LA to Vegas once. The rest is a minimum of 60 miles of 'spirited' driving in commuter traffic a day.
Thats no where as bad as some cars have seen. I may even call yours just "more aggressive street driving"


Quote:
Originally Posted by sw20kosh (Post 971726)
How much does it cost to buy a set of direct injectors? Are they readily available?
I dont believe they are readily available since there is people waiting weeks for them to be shipped from Japan. They also seem pretty pricey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolf (Post 971327)
Were you guys stock when it happened?
Anything to do with power/engine is stock unless drop in air filter by HKS counts... Stock intake, stock engine (no pulleys etc.) stock headers all the way to the mufflers.


Ok update:

So apparently Subaru Corporate is aware of the issue and is working on a fix either ECU or new DI design (they have to fix it for 2014). However since there is no fix yet there is no TSB (bulletin) on it yet. They also pulled the cricket noise TSB because it temporarily fixes the issue and it comes right back. Theyre working on a solution that will fix both. Now the big problem for us is that since there is no TSB, Subaru Dealers dont know what is going on because they base everything off the TSB. So you have popping noise? Subaru Dealers check the TSB, no TSB for popping noise. Popping noise is considered "normal." Now we all know that isn't normal and they know it isnt too but the dealership can't really do anything unless your engine blows. IF your engine blows Subaru Corporate HAS to cover your engine because they are aware of the issue and dont have a fix for it yet. I find it very weird why they rather have engine's blow up and replaced rather than replacing the seals to "temporarily fix the issue." The latter seems like a cheaper alternative. Now I could pay out of pocket (150 quoted by my dealer) for a diagnostic fee. I dont know exactly what they will do but if they do find a leaking DI seal they will warranty it and refund the 150. Now the dealer can screw me over and say "oh its your drop in air filter and once we put in a stock one the popping noise stops." Then they make away with my 150 for what is essentially a BS diagnostic. It seems like if we dont want our engine to blow up or be replaced we need dealers and corporate Subaru to be aware that this issue isnt just a small population of owners. It seems as if Toyota is willing to replace the seals while Subaru isnt willing to do anything unless we pay for diagnostic or after our engine blows...

Personally I believe this issue isnt just because of tracking the car. I believe it is also heat related. The first case of this issue recognized by Corporate Subaru was in South Africa (which is generally hotter than here in the states). During that time we were facing Winter and Spring months. Now that it is Summer, this issue is all over the place now. It is appearing whether a person tracks their car or uses it as their daily driver.

With all that said I would really like Subaru to fix this issue rather than have me drive my car around until the engine blows. I really don't like the idea of having the dealer work on my car, or worse... swap out my engine.

ATL BRZ 05-31-2013 08:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAWR BRZ (Post 971938)

So apparently Subaru Corporate is aware of the issue and is working on a fix either ECU or new DI design (they have to fix it for 2014). However since there is no fix yet there is no TSB (bulletin) on it yet. They also pulled the cricket noise TSB because it temporarily fixes the issue and it comes right back. Theyre working on a solution that will fix both.


... first case of this issue recognized by Corporate Subaru was in South Africa (which is generally hotter than here in the states).
What evidence do you have that SOA has acknowledged the Injector seal issue and are working on a fix?

Also I need to correct you about South Africa. That was not Subaru, it was Toyota who released a service bulletin which included an ecu update that corrects the transient ignition retard tables.

whitefrs 05-31-2013 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAWR BRZ (Post 971938)
Thats no where as bad as some cars have seen. I may even call yours just "more aggressive street driving"




I dont believe they are readily available since there is people waiting weeks for them to be shipped from Japan. They also seem pretty pricey.



Anything to do with power/engine is stock unless drop in air filter by HKS counts... Stock intake, stock engine (no pulleys etc.) stock headers all the way to the mufflers.


Ok update:

So apparently Subaru Corporate is aware of the issue and is working on a fix either ECU or new DI design (they have to fix it for 2014). However since there is no fix yet there is no TSB (bulletin) on it yet. They also pulled the cricket noise TSB because it temporarily fixes the issue and it comes right back. Theyre working on a solution that will fix both. Now the big problem for us is that since there is no TSB, Subaru Dealers dont know what is going on because they base everything off the TSB. So you have popping noise? Subaru Dealers check the TSB, no TSB for popping noise. Popping noise is considered "normal." Now we all know that isn't normal and they know it isnt too but the dealership can't really do anything unless your engine blows. IF your engine blows Subaru Corporate HAS to cover your engine because they are aware of the issue and dont have a fix for it yet. I find it very weird why they rather have engine's blow up and replaced rather than replacing the seals to "temporarily fix the issue." The latter seems like a cheaper alternative. Now I could pay out of pocket (150 quoted by my dealer) for a diagnostic fee. I dont know exactly what they will do but if they do find a leaking DI seal they will warranty it and refund the 150. Now the dealer can screw me over and say "oh its your drop in air filter and once we put in a stock one the popping noise stops." Then they make away with my 150 for what is essentially a BS diagnostic. It seems like if we dont want our engine to blow up or be replaced we need dealers and corporate Subaru to be aware that this issue isnt just a small population of owners. It seems as if Toyota is willing to replace the seals while Subaru isnt willing to do anything unless we pay for diagnostic or after our engine blows...

Personally I believe this issue isnt just because of tracking the car. I believe it is also heat related. The first case of this issue recognized by Corporate Subaru was in South Africa (which is generally hotter than here in the states). During that time we were facing Winter and Spring months. Now that it is Summer, this issue is all over the place now. It is appearing whether a person tracks their car or uses it as their daily driver.

With all that said I would really like Subaru to fix this issue rather than have me drive my car around until the engine blows. I really don't like the idea of having the dealer work on my car, or worse... swap out my engine.
So you saying that even Ud we fix this the issue will persist

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

CSG Mike 05-31-2013 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAWR BRZ (Post 971938)
Thats no where as bad as some cars have seen. I may even call yours just "more aggressive street driving"




I dont believe they are readily available since there is people waiting weeks for them to be shipped from Japan. They also seem pretty pricey.



Anything to do with power/engine is stock unless drop in air filter by HKS counts... Stock intake, stock engine (no pulleys etc.) stock headers all the way to the mufflers.


Ok update:

So apparently Subaru Corporate is aware of the issue and is working on a fix either ECU or new DI design (they have to fix it for 2014). However since there is no fix yet there is no TSB (bulletin) on it yet. They also pulled the cricket noise TSB because it temporarily fixes the issue and it comes right back. Theyre working on a solution that will fix both. Now the big problem for us is that since there is no TSB, Subaru Dealers dont know what is going on because they base everything off the TSB. So you have popping noise? Subaru Dealers check the TSB, no TSB for popping noise. Popping noise is considered "normal." Now we all know that isn't normal and they know it isnt too but the dealership can't really do anything unless your engine blows. IF your engine blows Subaru Corporate HAS to cover your engine because they are aware of the issue and dont have a fix for it yet. I find it very weird why they rather have engine's blow up and replaced rather than replacing the seals to "temporarily fix the issue." The latter seems like a cheaper alternative. Now I could pay out of pocket (150 quoted by my dealer) for a diagnostic fee. I dont know exactly what they will do but if they do find a leaking DI seal they will warranty it and refund the 150. Now the dealer can screw me over and say "oh its your drop in air filter and once we put in a stock one the popping noise stops." Then they make away with my 150 for what is essentially a BS diagnostic. It seems like if we dont want our engine to blow up or be replaced we need dealers and corporate Subaru to be aware that this issue isnt just a small population of owners. It seems as if Toyota is willing to replace the seals while Subaru isnt willing to do anything unless we pay for diagnostic or after our engine blows...

Personally I believe this issue isnt just because of tracking the car. I believe it is also heat related. The first case of this issue recognized by Corporate Subaru was in South Africa (which is generally hotter than here in the states). During that time we were facing Winter and Spring months. Now that it is Summer, this issue is all over the place now. It is appearing whether a person tracks their car or uses it as their daily driver.

With all that said I would really like Subaru to fix this issue rather than have me drive my car around until the engine blows. I really don't like the idea of having the dealer work on my car, or worse... swap out my engine.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37810

romin 05-31-2013 10:28 AM
CSG Mike has hit the exact issue.
Subaru denies there is an issue.
Engine eventually blows.
Subaru denies warranty because this issue is track related and track time = voided warranty.

I'm replacing my seals via a 3rd party mechanic and getting a software update via a 3rd party tuner.

I've dealt with many auto dealers over the years and Subaru is by far the worst.
Every issue I've hit with this vehicle has been diagnosed and repaired by me on my dime.
Subaru has provided no help what so ever.

xjohnx 05-31-2013 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by romin (Post 972219)
Subaru denies warranty because this issue is track related and track time = voided warranty.
Looks like their exact verbiage is:

Quote:
Damage Caused Due to Use of Vehicle in Competitive Events
These warranties do not cover damage to any component that is the result of operating the vehicle in any competition or racing event.
https://www.subaru.com/my-subaru/warranties-2013.html

vtmike 05-31-2013 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xjohnx (Post 972254)
Looks like their exact verbiage is:


https://www.subaru.com/my-subaru/warranties-2013.html
I'd make the case it's an HPDE and is educational and not competitive.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

xjohnx 05-31-2013 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtmike (Post 972269)
I'd make the case it's an HDPE and is educational and not competitive.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Yep, exactly my point. There is no winner in an HPDE, thus not a competition/racing event.

vtmike 05-31-2013 10:55 AM
Realized I put HDPE. Too accustomed to specking HDPE pipe.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

ATL BRZ 05-31-2013 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xjohnx (Post 972254)
Looks like their exact verbiage is:

"Damage Caused Due to Use of Vehicle in Competitive Events
These warranties do not cover damage to any component that is the result of operating the vehicle in any competition or racing event."

https://www.subaru.com/my-subaru/warranties-2013.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtmike (Post 972269)
I'd make the case it's an HPDE and is educational and not competitive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xjohnx (Post 972273)
Yep, exactly my point. There is no winner in an HPDE, thus not a competition/racing event.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me as far as HPDE participation goes. The first and last thing that is stressed in every HPDE driver's meeting that I participate in is, "NO RACING, NO RACING, and NO RACING".

Nobody who participates in a (non-competitive, educational) HPDE should be denied warranty coverage of a failure due to a defect in the factory ECU programming causing detonation/mifiring and ultimately injector seal failure. Especially since now a number of completely stock, street-driven cars are having the same issue now in the summer heat and crappy gas we are stuck with in the US.

Since CSG_Mike participated in a track event that featured live timing and the participants were comparing times I think thats the scumbags at SOA are construing the event as "competitive", thus denying warranty coverage on his second motor. Doesn't mean its right since we all know he never abused either motors.

CSG Mike 05-31-2013 11:38 AM
I think it's safe to say that my driving mainly consists of cornering and braking, not somehow making the motor do something it can't. There are plenty of people here that have been in either the CSG BRZ with me, or have asked me to drive their cars, and know I don't sit on the rev limiter, and shift pretty slowly.

In fact, there's a lot of people I've advised to shift SLOWER to preserve their synchros, since the engine RPMs drop so slowly...

The engine itself is completely within the factory specification in virtually every car I drive.

SkullWorks 05-31-2013 12:05 PM
I remember having to urge MR kang to actually Rev my SR20VET in my track car out,

He kept trying to shift at the (indicated) redline on the tach....instead of closer to the 8300 rpm actual or the 7800 hp peak

d4m45cuz 06-01-2013 04:25 AM
Just an update. Was able to order a new coil pack from Subaru for my FRS (cheaper than Toyota by a bunch, lol). Also something interesting while I run on my malfunctioning coil (might have already been said, but just confirming): Quick shifts seem to throw P0351 on Coil 1 quite consistently at anything above 4000 RPM from what I can tell. After clearing the code 2 or 3 times yesterday, decided to take it easy. Shifted slower today allowing the RPMs to fall naturally to the next gear, and no code was thrown. So if anything, this is good info for those who are currently experiencing this code. Take it easy until you can fix it.

On a side note, when the Toyota dealership gave me my car back on Thursday they told me they flashed it with an update to fix the idle issue. Wanted to check to see if they included transient retard timings, so sent a copy of my ROM to episoft to compare with what they have. The dealer flashed a completely STOCK ROM to my car! No changes whatsoever! More reasons to either do it yourself or go after-market.

ft_sjo 06-01-2013 05:22 AM
I would file a complaint.

RAWR BRZ 06-02-2013 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATL BRZ (Post 971979)
What evidence do you have that SOA has acknowledged the Injector seal issue and are working on a fix?

Also I need to correct you about South Africa. That was not Subaru, it was Toyota who released a service bulletin which included an ecu update that corrects the transient ignition retard tables.
Sorry if I said Subaru of South Africa, I know it is Toyota. It clearly shows on the pictures Drsutra posted. My source from a Subaru dealership told me that theyre researching the issue in Orange County. You can say this is speculations but they have to fix the issue for 2014. I am sure if it isnt resolved it will really hurt sales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitefrs (Post 972019)
So you saying that even Ud we fix this the issue will persist

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
Yes because all the current fix does is replace the broken part with a new part but doesnt fix why the part breaks in the first place. It is more or less just a temporary fix. Just like the new DI pump for cricket noise.

subaruferrucci 06-03-2013 05:26 AM
i got the light to come on twice this weekend. once i was passing someone going from 3rd to 4th in the 4k-6kish rev area. and the second time i was autoX so somewhere between 1-2nd gear and high in the RPMs the light went out but i am still going to be takeing it to the dealership tomorrow so they can look at it. figure if i get it documented if something does happen then they cant say they didnt know or what ever

Sportsguy83 06-03-2013 07:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by subaruferrucci (Post 977594)
i got the light to come on twice this weekend. once i was passing someone going from 3rd to 4th in the 4k-6kish rev area. and the second time i was autoX so somewhere between 1-2nd gear and high in the RPMs the light went out but i am still going to be takeing it to the dealership tomorrow so they can look at it. figure if i get it documented if something does happen then they cant say they didnt know or what ever
Check Engine light? Did you check the codes and if so what where them?

FastLane1000 06-03-2013 11:01 AM
You guys remember when the TRD intake was spotted at the Celebrity Races? I couldn't find the thread but when the Toyota guy was asked about the mods to the car I believe he mentioned the intake, exhaust and race gas to avoid detonation.

xjohnx 06-03-2013 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FastLane1000 (Post 977889)
You guys remember when the TRD intake was spotted at the Celebrity Races? I couldn't find the thread but when the Toyota guy was asked about the mods to the car I believe he mentioned the intake, exhaust and race gas to avoid detonation.
Found it.

Quote:
The cars are also tuned to run on 100-octane racing fuel, but Wade says there’s not much horsepower to be gained there either. The main purpose of the higher-octane fuel in this application is to even out the burn and decrease the risk of detonation. Redline synthetic fluids are used throughout the car to handle the higher temperatures inherent in racing.
Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/lights-cam...#ixzz2VARtllbd

zc06_kisstherain 06-03-2013 01:45 PM
god damm..now injector seal is failing?? hope Subaru comes up with TSB /Recall for all owners. until then, we all gotta be careful shifting everytime??

andrew20195 06-03-2013 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAWR BRZ (Post 975934)
Just like the new DI pump for cricket noise.
Where did you get the info that the DI pump TSB was pulled? It was revised on 5/8/13 to update the VIN range but it's still valid.

subaruferrucci 06-03-2013 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportsguy83 (Post 977636)
Check Engine light? Did you check the codes and if so what where them?

p0351 code both times

d4m45cuz 06-03-2013 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by subaruferrucci (Post 978487)
p0351 code both times
If you take it in, make sure they replace the seals AND the coil pack.

GTM_Challenge 06-03-2013 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by subaruferrucci (Post 978487)
p0351 code both times
Ive been getting this as well. :word:

romin 06-03-2013 10:55 PM
Here are the "special tools" needed to stretch the seals over the injector heads without damaging them.
Subaru wouldn't sell them to me.
Toyota wouldn't sell them to me.
I even called OTC and after asking for my account number, which I didn't have, they said the tools hadn't been manufactured yet.
Told me to call back in maybe July.

Found this one on a consignment site:

http://bminor.smugmug.com/photos/i-q...-qNCXmMN-M.jpg

Sportsguy83 06-03-2013 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by romin (Post 979460)
Here are the "special tools" need to stretch the seals over the injector heads without damaging them.
Subaru wouldn't sell them to me.
Toyota wouldn't sell them to me.
I even called OTC and after asking for my account number, which I didn't have, they said the tools hadn't been manufactured yet.
Told me to call back in maybe July.

Found this one on a consignment site:

http://bminor.smugmug.com/photos/i-q...-qNCXmMN-M.jpg
Very VERY awesome find my friend. Thanks a lot for this. Invaluable information!

Hawaiian 06-04-2013 01:34 AM
Scan them for a 3d printer and post it up?

subaruferrucci 06-04-2013 07:16 PM
brought the car to the dealership today for the CEL. if they dont give me any BS about my header back i will let you all know what they say

CSG Mike 06-05-2013 11:19 AM
We're not the only ones having issues.

http://arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/Date/20130604/

http://file.arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/6b7aa800.png
http://file.arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/294e2f97.jpeg
http://file.arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/8121f497.jpeg
http://file.arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/1daa68c9.jpeg

subaruferrucci 06-05-2013 05:42 PM
got my car back from the dealership and they CLAIM my ECU was out of date so they updated it. i dont think this fixed a damn thing and i told them that. Sooo next weekend i will be bringing the car back to the dealership

DJCarbine 06-05-2013 06:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by romin (Post 979460)
Here are the "special tools" needed to stretch the seals over the injector heads without damaging them.
Subaru wouldn't sell them to me.
Toyota wouldn't sell them to me.
I even called OTC and after asking for my account number, which I didn't have, they said the tools hadn't been manufactured yet.
Told me to call back in maybe July.

Found this one on a consignment site:

http://bminor.smugmug.com/photos/i-q...-qNCXmMN-M.jpg
I MIGHT be able to get this tool

I will post back when I find out for sure

Hanakuso 06-05-2013 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by subaruferrucci (Post 983918)
got my car back from the dealership and they CLAIM my ECU was out of date so they updated it. i dont think this fixed a damn thing and i told them that. Sooo next weekend i will be bringing the car back to the dealership
How can it be out of date? Was there a revised version in the US?

subaruferrucci 06-05-2013 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanakuso (Post 983989)
How can it be out of date? Was there a revised version in the US?

my car was bought this time last year so it was an early shipment. the dealer CLAIMS it was a recall and i should be getting a notice in the mail shortly about it mot sure i believe them completely

i also have some other codes besides the p0351. they are C1201 and C1241. not sure what they mean but i have them


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