Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB
Page 5 of 6 1234 5 6
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   FR-S / BRZ vs.... (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25)
-   -   ..... vs. DC2 Integra Type R (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2153)

ZDan 08-16-2012 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 384218)
True but I prefer to stick with numbers I can quantify, inflation and specific tires will change that, kind of shooting in the dark too much for me there :)
A number KNOWN to be wrong is not better than applying a well-established correction factor!
0.97x factor is not a "shot in the dark", and will always be much closer to reality than assuming the circumference is consistent with the OD calculated from the tire size.
Besides, Tire Rack revs per mile are based on measurements, readily available for most tires.
And of course you could mark your tires, roll your car for 10 tire revolutions and divide the distance by 10 to get an accurate rolling circumference.

Any of those three methods will get you MUCH closer to reality than basing it on the OD.

brianc 08-16-2012 10:47 PM
PEANUT BUTTA JELLY TIME. WHERYAA AT WHERTAA AT

back on topic.
I'd take a stock ITR with 0kms on it over a FRS.

:D

JW89225 08-16-2012 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianc (Post 384875)
PEANUT BUTTA JELLY TIME. WHERYAA AT WHERTAA AT

back on topic.
I'd take a stock ITR with 0kms on it over a FRS.

:D
+1 I'd take a ITR over a FRS/BRZ anyday, the overall experience from the Honda is just so raw and focused. I actually was hunting for a ITR while I was waiting for the FRS, but it was so damn rare to find a good one. Honda Type R are every bit as good as BMW's M in my books. High rev, brilliant motors, brilliant chasis, amazing handling. I'd love an NSX-R next to my M3

Forget about FWD flaws, this car is as good as FWD gets and its pretty damn good to put most RWD to shame. Well sorted FWD like the recent FD2 Civic Type R in Japan can feel and go every bit as good as a RWD if not better.

Its one of the greatest drivers car along with McLaren F1, GT3, Ferrari... voted by the readers of EVO.

This is what they had to say about it: ‘It’s a car as sweet and all-consuming as any I’ve experienced at any price, and as pure and focused in its own way as any Porsche RS. Forget the accolade of greatest front-wheel-drive car. The Integra Type-R ranks as one of the truly great drivers’ cars of any kind.’

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/carg...e_r34_gtr.html

However, got to give credit where its due. FRS/BRZ can do amazing things that even my M3 cant do, if only the brilliant chasis was mated to a brilliant Type R engine from Honda... The engine is one of the most important part of a car for me and the boxer 4 was kind of a let down to me...

brianc 08-17-2012 07:01 AM
Glad to see an E92 owner who doesn't think his car is the best thing invented since sliced bread.

Hats off to you. From the mod list you got there your E92 sounds like a sexy car.

huma 08-18-2012 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JW89225 (Post 384937)
However, got to give credit where its due. FRS/BRZ can do amazing things that even my M3 cant do, if only the brilliant chasis was mated to a brilliant Type R engine from Honda... The engine is one of the most important part of a car for me and the boxer 4 was kind of a let down to me...
I agree and Honda's are king of 4 cyl's.

Touge Monster 08-18-2012 01:20 AM
Say what you will about the ITR I loved mine but I had much more fun in my AE86. I love the FR-S yes the ITR is the pinnacle of the FF layout but an FR is more controllable and fun at the limit period.

fatoni 08-18-2012 01:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan (Post 384265)
A number KNOWN to be wrong is not better than applying a well-established correction factor!
0.97x factor is not a "shot in the dark", and will always be much closer to reality than assuming the circumference is consistent with the OD calculated from the tire size.
Besides, Tire Rack revs per mile are based on measurements, readily available for most tires.
And of course you could mark your tires, roll your car for 10 tire revolutions and divide the distance by 10 to get an accurate rolling circumference.

Any of those three methods will get you MUCH closer to reality than basing it on the OD.
as much as i hate that fact, i have to agree. estimations got us to the moon and we use them daily to treat cancer with radiation. we get pretty good at guessing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Touge Monster (Post 387090)
Say what you will about the ITR I loved mine but I had much more fun in my AE86. I love the FR-S yes the ITR is the pinnacle of the FF layout but an FR is more controllable and fun at the limit period.
i had a corolla while my friend had an itr and i came to the exact opposite conclusion. i dont understand how someone can find a car with an old underpowered car with a solid rear axle more controllable than a car with irs and near double the power. guess thats why they make more than one car

Touge Monster 08-18-2012 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 387117)
as much as i hate that fact, i have to agree. estimations got us to the moon and we use them daily to treat cancer with radiation. we get pretty good at guessing


i had a corolla while my friend had an itr and i came to the exact opposite conclusion. i dont understand how someone can find a car with an old underpowered car with a solid rear axle more controllable than a car with irs and near double the power. guess thats why they make more than one car
I well I do run touge especialy down hill all of the weight/power/steering through the front wheels not good...kinda hard to power slide an ff.. not to mention its harder to make mid corner adjusments much more commited to a line.

fatoni 08-18-2012 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Touge Monster (Post 387910)
I well I do run touge especialy down hill all of the weight/power/steering through the front wheels not good...kinda hard to power slide an ff.. not to mention its harder to make mid corner adjusments much more commited to a line.
well all that togue nonsense aside, the flip side of that coin is that on the uphill the itr would have all those disadvantages be reversed. i would think that on unconditioned irs would be even more important

serialk11r 08-18-2012 06:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 387992)
well all that togue nonsense aside, the flip side of that coin is that on the uphill the itr would have all those disadvantages be reversed. i would think that on unconditioned irs would be even more important
Except uphill the driven wheels have no grip, so it's moot.

MidnightMonkey 08-18-2012 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan (Post 384197)
Forget the math? It's only the language of the universe, the language of God Almighty!

Not always a difference in the desired direction, though... Not at all saying that you didn't experience an improvement at the tracks you got to. Only saying that "gears" don't always give people what they really wanted, which was a legitimately faster car for their usage.

Opposite is often true. If you add torque to add power, subtract weight, and add lateral grip, optimal gearing will be *taller*. However if you take a given displacement and tweak it more for higher-rpm performance, optimal gearing is shorter (numerically higher).

See above.

The FR-S or the Type R? In either case, you should consider two things:
1. with the same cam profiles, same valve sizes, same intake/exhaust ports, you're not going to make any more power by revving higher
2. simply going to new springs and retainers does NOTHING to beef up the bottom end, which may well already near its limit for reliability at the existing redline/rev-limiter

We used to just call it "LOWER" gearing, but somewhere along the line (late 90s?) newbs couldn't grasp the concept that 4.77 gearing is LOWER than 4.10 gearing.

Calling lower (numerically higher) gearing "quicker" can be false advertising!


Yup. Adding power via adding torque means optimal gearing becomes taller (numerically lower!).
All this talk about math and gear ratios are making my pants a little tight. I have absolutely no idea WTF you guys are trying to accomplish with those formulas tho. Do you guys have some reference material a geek might be able to dip into?

fatoni 08-18-2012 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r (Post 388008)
Except uphill the driven wheels have no grip, so it's moot.
to say that would mean you are saying that the front wheels wouldnt be any more overpowered on the downhill. my point was that going up hill, the extra weight over the front would be an advantage

ZDan 08-18-2012 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 388070)
to say that would mean you are saying that the front wheels wouldnt be any more overpowered on the downhill. my point was that going up hill, the extra weight over the front would be an advantage
Quite the opposite. Even a 53/47 rwd car will have the advantage on acceleration, as it loads up the drive wheels where fwd unloads them. On uphill, even more advantage to decently balanced rwd over fwd.

Even with ridonkulous (but necessary) 60-65% weight on the fronts, fwd has a drive wheel traction disadvantage under acceleration in just about any conditions short of snow/ice.

Wrong wheel drive...

fatoni 08-18-2012 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan (Post 388101)
Quite the opposite. Even a 53/47 rwd car will have the advantage on acceleration, as it loads up the drive wheels where fwd unloads them. On uphill, even more advantage to decently balanced rwd over fwd.

Even with ridonkulous (but necessary) 60-65% weight on the fronts, fwd has a drive wheel traction disadvantage under acceleration in just about any conditions short of snow/ice.

Wrong wheel drive...
my only point is that using uphill or downhill conditions as a factor as to why one car is better than another is going negated when going the other way. the only reason i wrote it like that was because i was referring to his specific situation. either way, the corolla is not as good a car as the itr regardless of drive wheels

ZDan 08-18-2012 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 388131)
my only point is that using uphill or downhill conditions as a factor as to why one car is better than another is going negated when going the other way.
rwd has the advantage going uphill or downhill.

Quote:
the only reason i wrote it like that was because i was referring to his specific situation. either way, the corolla is not as good a car as the itr regardless of drive wheels
Of course the ITR has much better power/weight, and better suspension layout. With similar power/weight, though, gimme the AE86 any day. I'd rather live with the live rear axle than with the ITR's fwd.

fatoni 08-18-2012 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan (Post 388299)
rwd has the advantage going uphill or downhill.


Of course the ITR has much better power/weight, and better suspension layout. With similar power/weight, though, gimme the AE86 any day. I'd rather live with the live rear axle than with the ITR's fwd.
to each his own but even down to the chassis the ae86 is a pile of junk. i dont know why you hate fwd so much. i know i must sound like a broken record but if you look at things like the cobalt ss, it does more with fwd and less power than alot of other cars that people drool over because the are "proper" or whatever. there is never going to be a simple rwd vs fwd debate. they come with a host of other effects on the way a car is built like weight, cost, power to the wheels etc. all that aside, all im saying on this thread is that the itr is a better car than the corolla. its faster up or downhill and it feels better doing it

ill86 08-18-2012 10:43 PM
"feels better" is VERY subjective.

fatoni 08-18-2012 10:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ill86 (Post 388359)
"feels better" is VERY subjective.
fine how about has a much more communicative chassis, the interior light doesnt turn on because of cornering forces, and irs allows for more progressive rear wheel breakaway

ill86 08-18-2012 11:02 PM
That sounds awesome. Great job.

fatoni 08-18-2012 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ill86 (Post 388386)
That sounds awesome. Great job.
do you know who tim and eric are?

whtchocla7e 08-18-2012 11:10 PM
fatoni made it a habit to pop out of nowhere in all miata,z and now honda threads just to rag on the toybaru every chance he gets... hard to take him seriously at this point.

ill86 08-18-2012 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 388389)
do you know who tim and eric are?
Do you honestly expect a reasonable answer at this point?

I know lots of tims and erics..

ill86 08-18-2012 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whtchocla7e (Post 388390)
fatoni made it a habit to pop out of nowhere in all miata,z and now honda threads just to rag on the toybaru every chance he gets... hard to take him seriously at this point.
Forums are for stating one's opinion. I get that.
What I dislike are posts from people who claim fact when they spout opinion.

I've started to notice this "wonderful" trend on this board. Not sure why I'm surprised.

:happy0180: no worries.

fatoni 08-18-2012 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whtchocla7e (Post 388390)
fatoni made it a habit to pop out of nowhere in all miata,z and now honda threads just to rag on the toybaru every chance he gets... hard to take him seriously at this point.
my favorite part is how you managed to post this statement in a thread that i dont even mention the frs

fatoni 08-18-2012 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ill86 (Post 388398)
Do you honestly expect a reasonable answer at this point?

I know lots of tims and erics..
ill take that as a no. they have a show called called tim and eric awesome show, great job. i guess you were just using those terms sarcastically in an attempt to belittle me right before you make a post about how this forum is going down the drain

ill86 08-18-2012 11:40 PM
Actually i was being quite serious. Again, great job.

I have no reason to attempt to belittle you. You're doing a wonderful job. :)

Nor did I say the froum is going down the drain. If you're going to quote/reply to me please be accurate and efficient.

ill86 08-18-2012 11:56 PM
Relax... I'm busting your balls. This is a vs thread. I expected to read rubbish that's why I clicked the thread. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 388421)
my favorite part is how you managed to post this statement in a thread that i dont even mention the frs
Sweet irony. :slap:

Touge Monster 08-19-2012 04:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 388070)
to say that would mean you are saying that the front wheels wouldnt be any more overpowered on the downhill. my point was that going up hill, the extra weight over the front would be an advantage
Umm yeah sure might I remind you of alittle thing called gravity. The ITR is great and all but fwd is and always will be an econo box solution it's cheaper than an FR layout to produce that's the only reason it exists.

Touge Monster 08-19-2012 04:49 AM
I'm quite confused as to how an FF would have the advantage on a hill climb over an FR but maybe you could explain that to me as the laws of physics speak otherwise

fatoni 08-19-2012 05:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Touge Monster (Post 388680)
Umm yeah sure might I remind you of alittle thing called gravity. The ITR is great and all but fwd is and always will be an econo box solution it's cheaper than an FR layout to produce that's the only reason it exists.
you talk about economy like its a bad thing. if you can get more for your money, thats good. especially when that more is speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Touge Monster (Post 388688)
I'm quite confused as to how an FF would have the advantage on a hill climb over an FR but maybe you could explain that to me as the laws of physics speak otherwise
im not sure that anybody who lives in america and refers to a canyon road as "the touge" is going to have a better grip on physics than i will.

if you think the universe is working against fwd why do you suppose that cars like the cobalt are going around tracks faster than rwd cars with more power?

Touge Monster 08-19-2012 05:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 388695)
you talk about economy like its a bad thing. if you can get more for your money, thats good. especially when that more is speed.

im not sure that anybody who lives in america and refers to a canyon road as "the touge" is going to have a better grip on physics than i will.

if you think the universe is working against fwd why do you suppose that cars like the cobalt are going around tracks faster than rwd cars with more power?


About as much sense as an fwd fanboi on an FR-s forum lol... Hey dude like I said the ITR is a great car no doubt about that. As far as FF being a better drivetrain....have fun with that arguement.

Touge Monster 08-19-2012 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 388070)
to say that would mean you are saying that the front wheels wouldnt be any more overpowered on the downhill. my point was that going up hill, the extra weight over the front would be an advantage
You completely discredit yourself by making idiotic posts like this on what particular univers does this make any sense. Let me guess FF is also the best drag set up because on launch the extra weight over the front wheels provides better traction that must be why all of the pro class cars are rwd. Go post some non-sense like this on team-integra and see how long you last lol. Or better yet try your luck in the town of springfield.

JW89225 08-19-2012 06:29 AM
I have to agree RWD is better than FWD, I mean that solely as my opinion/preference... but that does not take away from the ITR at all. Its a great car regardless of its layout and the fact that its one of the greatest drivers car in the world with its FWD econobox roots makes it all the more amazing. A testimony to what Honda can do when they have their work cut out for them.

I always wondered why Honda don't make more RWD, because every RWD that came from them is top notch. Personally, I never liked FWD until I really knew about the Type R line of cars. They really opened my eyes that this world have no absolutes, nothing is ever set in stones.

The GT-R is a perfect case... the dream recipe for sports car is a midship/lightweight/high power-to-weight... but the Nissan just shredded the rulebooks and threw it back at them :clap:

Be glad that people are bashing its FWD layout as a flaw... because you'll be hard pressed to find another :D

2forme 08-19-2012 09:47 AM
Sadly this war will not be won, for there are far more Honda fanbois than other fanbois. I think the ITR is a great car, but too many people make it seem like more than it really is.

Touge Monster 08-19-2012 01:42 PM
Awd is a completely different animal altogether and again the ITR is a great machine I would love to own another one if I wasn't so paraniod about some one stealing/vandalizing it. Yes fwd does have some advantages in a low grip situation rain/snow/mud etc it can be more stable than FR/MR. However climbing a hill or drag racing is not something ff excels at. For what it's worth I used to beat up on mr2s and silvias on the "canyon roads" in my ITR I was all about FF for years but once I switch drivetrains I was able to appreciate the extra control provided by FR and I never went back.

fatoni 08-19-2012 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Touge Monster (Post 388710)
About as much sense as an fwd fanboi on an FR-s forum lol... Hey dude like I said the ITR is a great car no doubt about that. As far as FF being a better drivetrain....have fun with that arguement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Touge Monster (Post 388718)
You completely discredit yourself by making idiotic posts like this on what particular univers does this make any sense. Let me guess FF is also the best drag set up because on launch the extra weight over the front wheels provides better traction that must be why all of the pro class cars are rwd. Go post some non-sense like this on team-integra and see how long you last lol. Or better yet try your luck in the town of springfield.
im not a fwd fanboy. im just saying that the using going downhill as a disadvantage disappears when you go uphill. i dont know why you are bringing up drag racing. this kind of strawman argument isnt going to win you any battles. saying that the weight balance is why the ae86 is better than the itr doesnt go too far when you look at absolute weight instead of a normalized percentage. there is less weight over the fron of an itr than there is over the frs. is the frs worse than the corolla?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2forme (Post 388820)
Sadly this war will not be won, for there are far more Honda fanbois than other fanbois. I think the ITR is a great car, but too many people make it seem like more than it really is.
have you ever owned an itr? that car is crazy

fatoni 08-19-2012 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Touge Monster (Post 389059)
Awd is a completely different animal altogether and again the ITR is a great machine I would love to own another one if I wasn't so paraniod about some one stealing/vandalizing it. Yes fwd does have some advantages in a low grip situation rain/snow/mud etc it can be more stable than FR/MR. However climbing a hill or drag racing is not something ff excels at. For what it's worth I used to beat up on mr2s and silvias on the "canyon roads" in my ITR I was all about FF for years but once I switch drivetrains I was able to appreciate the extra control provided by FR and I never went back.
saying stuff like that is simply closed minded. switched drivetrains and never went back? thats not a good move. when i dont like something its because i didnt like it. saying you arent going back is just uneducated bias

2forme 08-19-2012 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 389121)
have you ever owned an itr? that car is crazy
Owned personally? No. One of my best friends had one though and I've driven it plenty of times to know what the car is capable of. People do give it a LOT more credit than it deserves, but that's not to downplay what it is. 10 years ago, it was amazing. High revving, dual cam profiles, very very nice handling, decent MPG... but it's gotten a bit outdated. The K20's, F20's, etc are much better engines to start with than the already strung out B18C5. There's nothing wrong with that, because progress is a GOOD thing.

Honestly, the ITR had huge hype in the early 00's and deservedly so. I think most of that hype is still carrying on today, which is hard for some people to let go.

TouchMyHonda 08-19-2012 06:37 PM
At this point all The words in this thread look like bitch complain moan bitch complain moan bitch complain moan.

2forme 08-19-2012 08:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchMyHonda (Post 389475)
At this point all The words in this thread look like bitch complain moan bitch complain moan bitch complain moan.
How did anything I said sound like a bitch, moan, or complaint?


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:21 PM.
Page 5 of 6 1234 5 6
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2026 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.


Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.