I wish we could just get rid of the middle man and have the car delivered straight to our door directly ordered from factory. I mean I don't see why not, we know what we want. I don't need some guy that knows less about the car to tell stuff I know and then charge me extra for his services.

In the future, car dealerships will go the way of newspapers. There is already in place a system of vehicle delivery that works like a vending machine out of a multi-leveled car garage. I think it's in Europe.

I couldn't agree with you more.

I just wish everyone would pay MSRP and we didn't have to haggle up and down on price. Yet we all still play the game... It's the biggest thing I hate about selling cars. Everyone wants to steal the thing from us. We get a 6% markup on our cars. 6%. Think about it. In my state, that's less than what the state makes off the car in sales tax! Is it so unreasonable for a retailer to ask to make 6% off the sale of a product? I'm lucky to get $200 commission off the sale of a car, and I don't have salary to back it up. If you knew how much work I have to put in to make that money, you might feel a little pity! This ain't used car sales. We don't buy the cars for $20,000 and sell them for $30,000.

Look at RedBull. How much do you think RedBull cans cost to produce and sell? Ever looked at the unit price of a 9.4oz can of RedBull? Shit costs THIRTY DOLLARS A GALLON. How much do you think RedBull and its retailers are making off of that crap? And you wonder why they can afford to have TWO Formula 1 teams and sponsor everything under the sun. How about clothing? People pay STUPID money for clothing. I mean seriously, why do I pay $20 for a t-shirt? It can't cost more than a dollar to make. Nobody haggles with those guys; why not?? The point I'm trying to make is that every item gets sold through a retailer at a certain percentage of profit. Dealers are just villified for doing it for some reason. And yeah, some dealers deserve it (They're on the blacklist right now). But to stereotype and group everyone into that lump is no different than saying "all black people are good at basketball" or "all lawyers are scumbags". It just gets me down sometimes how much negativity swirls around this place about it.

OK, done ranting.

American car dealers lobby congress to SPECIFICALLY prevent what you are describing. Car dealers exist only to mark up cars between the manufacturer and customer and make excuses for profiteering when they are creating an artificial market where the customer has NO CHOICE but to buy from a dealer network. If there was the option to buy directly from the factory, dealers would be kept honest by having a realease valve for their ludicrious prices.

You honestly think the manufacturers would be against selling directly to the public?

You want to buy directly from the manufacturer? Move to China, you might like it there better. Options are just that, options. If you don't like it, you don't buy. I can offer you another alternative, find yourself a time machine and move to Russia any time between 1945 and 1985; I heard they have some great "manufacturer rebates" going on Zils and Ladas.

Oh my god, did you really just resort to the "Mer'ka: love it or leave it" speech? Dude, get a passport, and get out of town for a while. America is pretty much the ONLY country that has such a messed up dealership model. Yes, China sells direct, but you know who else does? Japan. Did a huge writeup on what it's like dealing with a Japanese dealership a while back (spoiler alert: it was infinitely better). To the best of my knowledge, every country in Europe too allows buying direct from manufacturers. You gonna tell me life's much worse in Sweden because they do that, or that the people who sell the cars there are all starving paupers?

This is clearly Communist propaganda, take that shit back to China you dirty terrorist!! If you don't LOVE things the exact way they currently are you should move to Lithuania

I intended no "love it or leave it" rhetoric. I was making an extreme point about the "cut the dealerships out" model; the commentary was on how absurd it is to make such blanket statements about all dealerships in the US. Here in America, and several European nations I might add including (sighted) the specific western European nations of Germany, UK, etc. many dealerships are franchised. To claim that the franchised dealership model is "messed up" is pretty absurd in it's own right. To compare your singular experience with EVERY dealership in the US is just well, nuts. I have had great experiences in US dealerships and poor experiences in others. I am free to take my money and spend it where I wish and am in no way obligated to one dealership if I do not like how I am treated, or how they run their operation. If you want to comment on a specific dealership you have had experience with, fair enough. but one or some is not all.

What do you like about the franchise model? That you get to pay a premium for the privilege of the dealer selling the car to you?

What is this "excellent service" that people are willing to pay extra for instead of getting the best deal for a car? Are the waiting room donuts that good? Is the basic level clerical work they go to get you financed (that any bank or website can do) that critical?

I really want to know.

I know that people make money selling cars, but people made money being bank tellers, sweeping chimneys, and once you didn't buy things on the internet... times change and the franchise dealership model is obsolete and inherently corrupt.

Over the top.

How are you paying extra to purchase from a franchise? You are the buyer, you can always walk away. When you purchase a car from a manufacturer directly, in markets where it is offered, you pay MSRP (often at a not insignificantly higher cost then the what one would pay here in USD.). Possibly, you may get some sort of factory subsidized incentive on slow moving models (just like here). There is no incentive for one dealer to give you better service or pricing then another when they are NOT franchised. If anything, it provides you with leverage as the buyer that they ARE franchised. I admire your passion, I really do. But your logic is flawed.

That is the argument FOR franchises. That everyone saves money because there is competition. But you know that's not the case, if it were no one would be throwing in 2000 ADM on popular models, offering standard features as options, or just tacking on useless baubles on the car--like 400 dollar pinstriping. Dealers have long learned how to bypass the MSRP through the ADM sticker, creative financing, and screwing people on their trade-ins.

How many people do you think proofread every one of the pieces of paper they sign at the dealership? How many do you think buy the worthless protection plans and extended warranties underwritten by some offshore company?

And this kind of behavior is encouraged, and the norm--not the exception. Car dealers just deny it because customers would be much more savvy if they came in knowing they may be screwed.

Mines, I've probably owned more cars in my life than you've ever driven. Only a tiny, tiny portion of those cars were bought from individuals, so yes... I have a ton of experience being on the purchasing side of a sales desk. Have all car dealers I've ever worked with been assholes? Nope. There was one... ONE... that didn't make me feel utterly dirty by doing business with him and his dealership. (Mind you I'm not saying that it was a great and happy buying experience, but that it was simply on par with a purchase somewhere like Macy's or Subway). As for the others? Off the top of my head I can easily think of 10 dealerships... ten... I had to do business with, on the other hand, that left me with a feeling like I'd had to entertain an admitted pedophile at family dinner. Those are just the really bad experiences that stand out in my mind. And don't give me that "just go to another dealer" crap; when you live in the midwest, and there's only four Subaru dealers within a four hour drive of you, and three of them are owned by the same people... shopping around isn't an option. (Not that it would matter much; I love Subaru's dearly, but have yet to walk out of one of their dealerships without wanting to punch somebody in the face).

You're not seeing the forest for the trees: I don't begrudge salesmen a profit, it's HOW they make their profit that pisses me off. Misleading individuals about availability of cars. Playing the whole "well I can get that info for you, just let me get your number and email address first..." bullshit game. The aforementioned $300 wax jobs and $500 applications of Armor-all. This is all bullshit profiteering off of uninformed people, usually under high-pressure sales tactics. And what if you are informed? Do you know how many dealerships I've had to get positively ugly with the sales staff to the point of walking out mid-purchase because they won't take "No" for an answer on a lot of that crap? More than 50% of the dealerships I've purchased at. More than half. And you wonder why we hate on the dealership model? Most salesmen don't know the correct horsepower rating of the cars they sell, but treat you like an idiot for not falling for their stupid markup crap. Again, I'm speaking from a helluva lot more purchasing experience than most of the people on here.

As for dealers on this forum taking it personally, how can I put this... Speaking as a purchaser, we don't hate you, per se... we hate your job. It's like the guy who ran Saddam's rape-rooms. I'm sure he was a nice guy: called his mom on weekends, had a family, maybe even scrap-booked. Doesn't excuse the fact that his job was running freakin' rape-rooms!!! Same situation with you guys: I don't care how honest you think you are in your business dealings, you're still nothing more than a middle-man put there as a result of some stupidly misguided Federal trade laws. I want to be able to walk into a car showroom, get honest answers as to what it will take to get exactly what I'm looking for, give them money, receive car. That's IT!!! Scion's getting close to that with their Pure Pricing scheme, but even some dealers (there's that word again) are managing to mess that up.

So like Ash was asking: what has the dealership model done that's GOOD for the consumer?

Not when every franchise dealership in your region resorts to the same sleazy tactics, and not when you live in a country where car ownership is a necessity in life.

Free popcorn.

..that's all I've got.

I hate the game too. I'd rather have a BRZ, but I'd rather the buying experience of Scion, where I know what I'm paying and done.