Sounds like your argument is actually that the decline of sporty/affordable cars at Honda has not been any worse than at Toyota. I might actually agree with that, but that's not what my original point was. I was talking about the decline of sporty/affordable cars at Honda in absolute terms, which I think is difficult to argue against. Hell, you even have Honda making statements about re-introducing sporty cars from its past (S2000, NSX) and vowing to be competitive again with cars like the (discountinued but soon to be re-released) Civic Type-R. Confessions don't get more clear than that.

Stock vs stock the S2k has better weight distribution (only slightly, but still better) AND a lower hood/fender line than the FRS/BRZ.

Since the I4 is narrower they can lay it down on an angle to reduce the height it needs (which is what they did in the S2k), it's all about creative packaging.

I never said those, or all of Honda's cars, were built in Ohio. My point is that being built in Ohio is not a bad thing in itself. So what if it's cheaper to build a car here than Japan? It's a business, and making money is the point. Why did the cost of your example GT-R go up? Is it because it's vasatly superior to last year's model... nope... they want money. The Yen is strong, the dollar is not. It cost more to build it in Japan, so up goes the price. Lot's of foreign makers (not just Honda, and not just Japanese brands) are ramping up NA production for cost effectiveness. Business 101.

I still have friends that work for Honda. They know they need to reverse course, but it doesn't happen over night. It takes years (and no, mild cosmetic refreshes on the Civic after a bad year isn't what I'm talking about). I've heard some hints at what's coming (I'm no longer in the know since I'm at a different OEM) but I'm excited/hopeful for them.

Another point is the with the 86 clones. If "built in Japan" is so superior, how come they have so many problems with them? Honestly the last couple Hondas I've owned have been, hands down, tighter / rattle free / better built (admittedly one was built in Japan, the other in Canada)... both of which were first year cars. Point is while there is nothing wrong with being built in Japan (or anywhere), it doesn't mean it's automatically immune to quality issues.

I owned a '99 Accord V6 that was built completely (engine / trans / car) in Ohio with 250k miles on it. Besides timing belts / other basic maintainence, it needed an alternator and a drive belt tensioner. That's not poorly built meng. Car ran great when I sold it.

And I still don't get why you think they're so incapable of builing a sports car in the states / NA. The NSX is getting a dedicated plant. Engineers travel. Meetings can be had with Japan on a daily basis. There will be bumps with out a doubt, but there will be guidance and perseverence. And no, that doesn't mean the Japanese will have to save the Americans from themselves. Honda has a company moto: "one team." Honda is a fly on the wall when compared to the size of Toyota, or GM or VAG and must be completely unified in what they do.

Food for thought: is it looking down upon NA manufacturing that they didn't build the lower volume / specialty cars here, or is it trusting NA manufacturing to handle the high volume cars that ultimately keep the company going? How many S2Ks/RSXs/TSXs were sold versus Accords? Versus Civics? The NA built cars are the ones that are in the hands of the people making Honda's reputation. For every one of the previous NSXs sold, there were a thousand NA built civics sold. * I made that ratio up, but you get my point*

You may not like Honda's direction at this moment, and that's fine, but there is nothing wrong with an NSX being built in Ohio, or America.

Let's agree to disagree. :happy0180:

Well for one, I was just pointing to the fact that yes, the performance models have historically been built in Japan. Lot of people were discussing heritage, how it's important, how this will be the first big time performance car Honda has ever made, in Ohio. EVERYTHING else was built in Tochigi or Suzuka, specialty areas with expertise and access to places like Suzuka Circuit. Now I'm sure there are a bunch of track facilities there so I'm not knocking the setup. Just something to think about. I can imagine Porsche guys becoming upset if Porsche announced they were going to start building the Carrera in Texas, or Vette guys crying foul that Chevy would start making them in the UK.

My Evo X didn't have that many problems. I had a first year, and the steering wheel sensor had to be fixed, a fuel line had to be 'tweaked', and a couple other small time things. For the FR-S, the tail lights and fuel pump so far. Made in Japan isn't perfect but the FR-S runs fine, and I paid a whopping $0.00 to have it fixed. Unlike an Accord or Civic, this is a completely new car with new tech from the ground up. Difference in manufacturing and expertise.

Honda has the guns to make a 86 killer but bean counters are killing them.

:happy0180:

Let's hope for less gun control :bonk:

This thread makes me tired...

On topic, I test drove a '12 civic si when car shopping. It felt alright, got loud when you got on it. Seemed well built, nice transmission. But the gimicky VTEC light and crazy cockpit layout made it a no go for me.

Things like that really make me question the companies and the people who they put in charge. Seriously, who at Honda thought that this was a good idea? It's not as if they are building these cars for 15 year-olds who fall for that kind of crap. It's way worse than the G-meter gauge in the Nissan Sentra a few years ago.