Originally Posted by fledonfoot (Post 765703)

As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, i went through a warranty claim with them a while ago. It was not fun, and has soured me off them.

My first exhaust had a major fitment issue, where the left tip stuck out past the bumper an inch, and the right side set in about an inch. I'd read several threads about them being a little off center but this was not acceptable.

I took some pictures, and emailed them. I heard nothing back for over a week. I called the place I ordered the parts from and they got me in touch with one of their regional sales reps through their distributor. This guy was great. I was talking to someone in the office on the design team to figure out the problem.

They asked me to reinstall it and try a few things. I went along with it, but nothing changed the fitment. They asked to take some measurements around the hangers, I sent them in and heard nothing back to two weeks.

I got back in touch with their sales manager and flipped out. I had a phone call back from them within an hour. Ultimately, they said it was installation error.

When I told this to the sales manager, I politely explained that I work for a Toyota dealership, and that they're telling me that two Toyota Master level techs can't install an exhaust properly? After a lot of back and forth they agreed to send me a replacement. They said they'd put it on the jig first to make sure it's right.

It showed up a week later. It didn't fit. The left tip is still 1/2" out, but it's nowhere as bad. I've tried it on a friend's car. Doesn't fit that either.

This tells me that they either have a bad design or poor QC. Mostly, i learned they don't care.

Originally Posted by trish07 (Post 765547)

Not it is not only surface rust. Parts of it are eated by rust, especially the welds.

Originally Posted by wu_dot_com (Post 766545)

that sounds typical for any wield.

the engineering vocab you need to support your clam is
“though 409SSS may have developed a surface oxide layer to protect the corrosion from farther penetrating the sub surface, the wielded area are subject to galvanic corrosion due the wield rod material and the heat effected zone during wielding have alter the materials chemical composition which resist further oxide development. When such material combinations is subject to an high salt environment, detrimental corrosion will occur. This theory can be verified through testing the 409SS wielded coupon material per mil-std-810 salt fog test.”

Originally Posted by Dimman (Post 765568)

This is why people need to educate themselves and investigate the products.

If it rusts, and they make no claim of it being 304 or better (or even full stainless at all) it is a too bad, so sad situation.

This is why I have been a bit of a d!ck to more than a few vendors when it comes to materials, fabrication method and country of origin.

Materials, people have a basic understanding that 304 is the one to have in exhausts. But there is more to it. Country of origin, or better, country of quality assurance plays a role in more than just fitment or welds cracking. The machinery company I work for buy literally tons of steel and aluminum per year (possibly even per month). The planning and purchasing departments are penny pinching misers. On the occasion that they've sourced cheaper material we've always ended up getting burned. Aluminum sold as 6061-T6 that isn't in the T6 condition (useless as it has half its strength), 304L stainless tubing that is out of round with a wall thickness variance of over 25%, 1060 induction-hardened linear shaft that isn't hardened. Each time it is never the whole batch, but from 10% to as much as 25% in the case of the linear shaft. All of it was Chinese-sourced from small Chinese or Canadian distributors. The stuff from US sources, or Chinese production via large corporations like NSK has had practically zero issues.

Any exhaust company that sources in China has a huge risk of quality issues because they don't oversea/own/partner with the factories. The factories run on razor thin margins and one rejected piece can wipe out the profit from a lot of sales. (Yes there will be ranges of factory quality, ranging from ok to terrible. But never good.) So a lot 'slips through' QA. You end up with a few people getting a good fit and durable system, another that needs a hammer for install, and another that fits ok but rusts out in 6 months. All from the same company.

Now as much as people get boners for the Japanese companies, they are not all huge and powerful to the point of being able to maintain suitable quality assurances over the entire supply chain. Not even Ford (transmissions) or Siemens (? German high-speed train) can do this. Add to the fact that two of the biggest Japanese aftermarket companies Trust/Greddy and HKS have been having tough times financially and you have a recipe for cost-cutting problems.

So you either get outsourced production with unverifiable supply chains, or material substitutions. Or both. (One or both of the Greddy/HKS FR-S exhausts in the DSport review use 409 stainless.)

There's more to this, but this is already too long and too ranty...

TLDR:

Nameless and Motiv are beautifully TIG welded, USA-made with USA-sourced 304L. Nameless is also testing the superior titanium-enriched 321 stainless.

JDL is beautifully TIG welded, USA-made, but I haven't confirmed their 304L source but given their standards, I would bet on USA-sourced.

Perrin and Borla are adequately MIG welded, USA-made with unconfirmed source 304.

Buy from these companies.

Originally Posted by FR-S Matt (Post 769519)

Couldn't agree more. It's funny not even knowing as much about steel and metals like you and I would have put all of those companies on top as ones I would purchase exhaust products from. I'm pretty positive JDL uses some pretty high quality stuff like Nameless. Maybe they can chime in here.

I'm always promoting Nameless products because they actually do live up to their standards. Just talk with Jason about your build on your car and you'll see why. It instills a lot of confidence in the product you're purchasing and they stand behind what they create. Not to mention they listen to their customers for ideas (i.e. Exhaust Diffuser being made for the Axleback by request) and go through some very interesting details of their builds. JDL did the same with their header and the collector testing they did on it. Two amazing companies.

Originally Posted by Dimman (Post 769500)

Unfortunately I don't think you will get anywhere with this.

Reading through the description they only identify the tips as 304 stainless, and the main piping as just stainless. This is a legal, but unethical technique for companies that use 4xx stainless in their products. It is common with manufacturers of domestic vehicle systems such as Dynomax, Flowmaster and Magnaflow to use inferior 4xx stainless. But out of these 3 companies, only Flowmaster is up front about using 409 stainless, the rest just use 'stainless steel', banking on the well known reputation of the better 304 stainless to lead customers to assume that is what they use. They don't.

This looks to be the same situation, but adding to the (legal?) deception by naming the tip-only material as 304 to further encourage the customers' assumption. Pricing it on par with true 304 systems reinforces this even more as well as increases profits from using cheaper material.

This is, in my opinion, 100% wrong and no different than outright lying about a product from an ethical point of view.

However, I am not a lawyer and this may actually be 100% legally acceptable. And given how business law seems to be geared towards shafting the consumers, you are probably out the money.

Advertising needs stronger transparency laws.

But in the indefinite meantime consumers need to learn to ask relevant questions about what they are buying.

Originally Posted by trish07 (Post 769462)

To me, it's still not normal. HKS do not rust. Borla do not rust. Nameless do not rust. I mean, if you design an exhaust, I'm of the opinion you should prevent corrosion. It is logic!

If I buy a home, I expect it not to collapse lol. If I buy a car, I expect it not to brake in 3 months. When Mazda had rust issues with their Mazda3, they had to do something, it was not normal and their customers had not to pay for that. If a company is using cheap material, it is not the consumer's fault. Especially if they sale their products the same price as others that use good material.

I've bought an exhaust in the same price range than others that have no issues, I expect mine to be as good as the others.

Problems can happen, I can understand. But as a good company, you should listen to your customers and find solutions.

Originally Posted by aFePower (Post 771867)

All, I wanted to just clear a few things up. Trish07, I personally apologize for what you have gone through. I sent you a PM and hope you contact me. The exhaust is 409ss and it will have surface rust only. We did this to keep the exhaust system at a lower price. However, we hear all of you loud and clear. We will release a 304 SS version. We have now made all new exhaust systems in 304 to prevent these issues. We are constantly improving ourselves. We are new to the car exhaust market but do extremely well in the Diesel and Gas exhaust business. Trucks don't require 304 and we understand the car market does. I am thankful we got to hear all of these complaints because it will make us a better company. Trish07, you have every right to be upset and we are sorry you did not have anything less than a great experience. Thank you.

Originally Posted by aFePower (Post 771867)

All, I wanted to just clear a few things up. Trish07, I personally apologize for what you have gone through. I sent you a PM and hope you contact me. The exhaust is 409ss and it will have surface rust only. We did this to keep the exhaust system at a lower price. However, we hear all of you loud and clear. We will release a 304 SS version. We have now made all new exhaust systems in 304 to prevent these issues. We are constantly improving ourselves. We are new to the car exhaust market but do extremely well in the Diesel and Gas exhaust business. Trucks don't require 304 and we understand the car market does. I am thankful we got to hear all of these complaints because it will make us a better company. Trish07, you have every right to be upset and we are sorry you did not have anything less than a great experience. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Foobar (Post 771967)

Thanks for coming on here and providing a response. Welcome to the FT86Club community - hope you guys stick around, as both vendor and customer can benefit from your presence.