Yep. All I saw you say was "you've never experienced lift throttle oversteer?" or something to that effect so I wanted to add that it was never the right move near the limits, period.. :)

I think we can all agree that all RWD cars (or Maybe ALL cars...) with Trac off can be dangerous in the wrong hands.

Between the BRZ Suspension and the FRS Suspension, when the Traction is off, I think there will be very little difference in the effort required to get the tail out. If you're dumb in either one, you run the risk of crashing.

Wow, did I touch a nerve here or what? :lol:

That's a perfect illustration of what I'm talking about. Thanks for the vid.

I'm not worried about my ability to handle it. And that's because I've taken the time to educate and train myself on handling a nimble RWD car. I have no delusions that I'm a driving god, but I do understand how to handle cars like this. Most others (and I don't mean others here, I mean others in the general public) have not.

I'm not bitching, I'm raising what I feel is a legitimate concern. You're free to disagree with me, of course, but at least add something to the discussion.

Easy to control for journalists who make their living driving cars and for the rest of us who give a damn about the finer points of driving. The point you're all missing is that the vast majority of people just don't care. Willful ignorance can kill... And I don't care if they get killed, I care what it will do to my insurance rates and to the people they may hit.
I disagree with your statement that ALL vehicles will oversteer under lift-throttle conditions. See the earlier vid with the Lotus Elan footage if you need an example.

And as for what a PROPERLY set up FWD car will do, I'll disagree with that as well, simply because A) properly for a track is a lot different from properly for the street and B) I don't think there's anything proper about *snap oversteer*. Progressive and predictable beats snap anything every time.

Of course I have. Even on purpose lots of times! But I knew it was coming and what to do about it. I'd argue that this skill is largely absent from the driving population largely because it's not a trait that's found in many cars. People have never had to learn how to handle it.



My problem is not with the car. I'm glad they are building it this way, because I enjoy cars like this. But I also live in the real world, where driver training is pretty much nonexistent and people grossly overestimate their driving skills. Add in the fact that this thing is aimed straight at the drifting crowd who- let's face it- are just asking to wreck, and you have a recipe for disaster. And don't forget, lawyers can smell blood in the water a mile away. The first time somebody gets killed practicing their tofu delivery technique, you can bet Toyota's chassis tuning will go under the microscope.

When that happens, you'll be wishing they'd dialed in a little understeer from the factory.

Don't disable traction control.
Problem solved.

The Elan (that generation) is a horrible handling car. To use it as an example of "proper handling" is a joke. It shows it's tendency by turning in more. That is still a tendency towards oversteer, it's certainly not a tendency towards understeer at lift throttle which seemed to be what you wanted. (BTW I said they have a tendency to oversteer, I meant towards, but the point was clear enough for others to understand, sorry for the confusion it caused you)

By properly setup I meant a FWD car setup for neutral handling, IE, understeer tuned out of it. They will snap. My car snaps, I use that 'feature' all the time for autocross. Lots of people wreck tuned FWD cars for that reason (and even the properly setup ones from the factory). Fast FWD is scary actually, much scarier than RWD IMO since RWD is so easy to control once it steps out. And I don't see any difference between properly setup FWD cars for handling between the track and the street. I prefer neutral handling in both environments, I just don't drive like a retard on the street.

Unless you're about to swap ends because you weren't as talented at powersliding as you thought you were. ;)

The snap oversteer of the 1991-92 MR2 had nothing to do with steady-state cornering balance, which is what you are complaining about in this thread. The suspension geometry was such that the rear tires would toe out when the suspension was in droop. As such, if a driver entering a corner too hot lifted off the throttle (or applied a bit of brake) the forward load transfer would cause the rear suspension to extend, toe-ing out the rear tires and reducing rear cornering force (to a much greater degree than simple load transfer would cause). This was addressed by revising the rear suspension geometry for the 1993 model year. Spring/bar rates had nothing to do with it, and changing them made no real difference in that regard.

Technically wouldn't that already be past the limits and not near/at? :)

Agreed.

ive only spun out in my mr2 once, and thats because i was trying to, to see what the limits were.. learn to drive

:happy0180:

Glad someone has a sense of humor ;)

it was getting too heated in this thread so I had to do it. People just love to argue for the point of arguing.

Can someone explain to me the reasoning behind "the insurance skyrocketing" on the FR-S ?

People are just spreading rumors :thumbdown:

We need more natural selection no sympathy for those who do something stupid, I only hope they don't take an innocent out!

I like what they're doing with the handling :)

the more offten a car is crashed the less an insurance company wants to insure it. it's like the tc every one thinks its a racecar so they treat it like one so insurance companies look at the bad and say everyone acts that way. raising rates.

Correct. It's sad when my insurance agent informed me that it's $24/year more to insure a Corvette than my tC. :cry: