Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB - Of Curb Weights and why this car will not weigh under 2600lbs

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- - Of Curb Weights and why this car will not weigh under 2600lbs (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2286)

Quote:

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE (Post 77323)

that sucks my 2000 gts abs system was about as big as my fist and didn't weigh anything....

Newer integra systems were similar to that, about 1/4 the size and maybe 1/4 the weight.. But since we were talking about early to mid 90s ABS systems it's important to note that older ABS pumps were HUGE and heavy compared to modern ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by old greg (Post 77319)

This is only partly true. The '02-'07 sedans had a wider track with longer control arms and more kingpin angle. The GC/GF/GM had the same suspension geometry as the '02-'07 wagon (GG). So if you were to put GD control arms on a GC/GF/GM/GG you got a crap ton of negative camber, or in the case of struts you ended up with no camber at all.

I have '02+ aluminum WRX control arms and such on my '95 :)

The point is the bolt locations and components are compatible over such a long period of time even if they did slightly change for different models.

The OP's post is too simplistic to make a compelling point.

There's very little relation of a 90s Impreza chassis to a 2013 car, so why compare? And if you're going to make the argument that technology hasn't changed that much, then why do some RWD cars (Miata) weigh a lot less than others (1 series)? Different cars will have different weights, it's not that surprising.

Cars from the 90s used very little high-tensile steel. Steel alloys are very important in dictating weight. This is why Kia's for example tend to be heavy. They go cheap and use heavier alloys. Then there's also aluminum--the FT86 has an aluminum hood. In short, it's pointless to compare two entirely different cars from a different decade, because there are so many differing factors.

It's very possible to create a 2600 lbs 2+2 car. It's a question of cost, dynamics, compromise. People keep forgetting that the "heavier" Miata still weighs 2400 lbs. The Veloster for example weighs under 2600 lbs because it's over 40 percent high-tensile steel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aki (Post 77346)

There's very little relation of a 90s Impreza chassis to a 2013 car, so why compare? And if you're going to make the argument that technology hasn't changed that much, then why do some RWD cars (Miata) weigh a lot less than others (1 series)? Different cars will have different weights, it's not that surprising.

Quote:

Cars from the 90s used very little high-tensile steel. Steel alloys are very important in dictating weight. This is why Kia's for example tend to be heavy. They go cheap and use heavier alloys. Then there's also aluminum--the FT86 has an aluminum hood. In short, it's pointless to compare two entirely different cars from a different decade, because there are so many differing factors.

Cars from the 90's also used significantly LESS steel than modern cars. Less bracing, simpler chassis, smaller cars. The reason why I'm using the early Imprezas is because their size and drivetrain is similar enough for a comparison. Later model Imprezas have significantly larger, beefier chassis that weighs a bit more making the comparison much more difficult.

An aluminum hood versus a non aluminum hood only does not save that much weight. I have an aluminum hood on my Impreza for example, it only saved about 25lbs.

Aluminum is also EXPENSIVE compared to steel, so if Toyota/Subaru DID use a lot of aluminum on this car, it would make it significantly more expensive. They have stated the hood and possibly the trunk might be aluminum, but this is not unusual for Subaru's anyway.

Quote:

It's very possible to create a 2600 lbs 2+2 car. It's a question of cost, dynamics, compromise. People keep forgetting that the "heavier" Miata still weighs 2400 lbs. The Veloster for example weighs under 2600 lbs because it's over 40 percent high-tensile steel.

The Veloster is light because it is FWD. If it were RWD, it would weigh another 200lbs at least, even heavier than the FRS/BRZ.

The point of this thread is to show that the materials and components used on this car dictating the weight of the vehicle. In no way is it exact method, and to be honest it doesn't really matter that much. I just wanted to give people an honest assessment of why this car WON'T be a super-light weight.

@Aki was the news about the aluminum hood in the training manual? I know that aluminum saves weight but it is also very good at conducting heat. Which means that if you have been driving for a long time and accidentally put your hand on the hood you are in for a surprise. That being said it also acts like a heat sink for the engine. So I guess it's a hood idea as long as nobody touches the hood after a track run without gloves on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ikaros (Post 77352)

It was in one of the first drive "previews".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kostamojen (Post 77350)

You can't compare the Miata chassis to the FT86 because well, its entirely a different style of chassis using completely different components:

http://www.freelancemazda.co.uk/chassis.gif
http://www.jbcarpages.com/mazda/mx5/...20%2819%29.jpg

Not to mention the Miata lacks a roof and are not that cheap anymore.

Cars from the 90's also used significantly LESS steel than modern cars. Less bracing, simpler chassis, smaller cars. The reason why I'm using the early Imprezas is because their size and drivetrain is similar enough for a comparison. Later model Imprezas have significantly larger, beefier chassis that weighs a bit more making the comparison much more difficult.

An aluminum hood versus a non aluminum hood only does not save that much weight. I have an aluminum hood on my Impreza for example, it only saved about 25lbs.

Aluminum is also EXPENSIVE compared to steel, so if Toyota/Subaru DID use a lot of aluminum on this car, it would make it significantly more expensive. They have stated the hood and possibly the trunk might be aluminum, but this is not unusual for Subaru's anyway.

The Veloster is light because it is FWD. If it were RWD, it would weigh another 200lbs at least, even heavier than the FRS/BRZ.

The point of this thread is to show that the materials and components used on this car dictating the weight of the vehicle. In no way is it exact method, and to be honest it doesn't really matter that much. I just wanted to give people an honest assessment of why this car WON'T be a super-light weight.

There are not many current production 2+2 RWD coupes that are less than 2700 pounds. The FRS\BRZ is one of them...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kostamojen (Post 77350)

Not to mention the Miata lacks a roof and are not that cheap anymore.

the miata is cheaper than the frs will be

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ikaros (Post 77352)

I know that aluminum saves weight but it is also very good at conducting heat.

It's kind of hard to buy into that when there's fiberglass insulation on the bottom of the hood. :bellyroll:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kostamojen (Post 77350)

The Veloster is light because it is FWD. If it were RWD, it would weigh another 200lbs at least, even heavier than the FRS/BRZ.

The torsion beam rear suspension doesn't hurt either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 77362)

the miata is cheaper than the frs will be

Not so sure about that.. sure a Sport MSRP is $23,190 with a 5 speed. If you want a 6 speed just to at least match that you are at $25,500 minimum.

I still expect the FRS to be 22-24 base. Of course I could be wrong :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 77370)

but the actual price of the miata is flexible. people who are patient dont spend nearly that much on miatas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 77373)

but the actual price of the miata is flexible. people who are patient dont spend nearly that much on miatas.

Sure but the same is true with the BRZ. Maybe not for 6 months, but it will be. Hell you can get an STI for invoice or less any day of the week now. You really have to base price comparisons on MSRP, who creates incentives more or has more demand skews that unfairly for the purposes of a blanket statement like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 77378)

i hope thats the case but i cant see toyota selling these cars when you can go down the street and spend less on a subaru that is mechanically identical. i dont have any more facts than anybody else but i think its safe to say that this will cost more than a miata. at the end of the day its more car, more motor and more hype. i guess well wait and see

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 77402)

i hope thats the case but i cant see toyota selling these cars when you can go down the street and spend less on a subaru that is mechanically identical. i dont have any more facts than anybody else but i think its safe to say that this will cost more than a miata. at the end of the day its more car, more motor and more hype. i guess well wait and see

Most people don't know much about cars.

edit: Not to mention, a lot of other partnerships with mechanically identical cars have one that is a clear winner loser: GM/Toyota, for instance. Geo/Toyota. People might be leery of the BRZ because the toyota version has ALWAYS been better when they partner with somebody else.

Time will tell if the BRZ is different.