You can't not adjust the fluid level. It's absolutely required. Everything in the transmission is controlled with hydraulics.

No problem.

First off, you definitely need to follow the factory service manual procedure for setting the transmission fluid level. It is a bit more work than old transmissions used to be, but if you follow the procedure to the letter, it is ultimately more precise than a dipstick. There needs to be just the right amount of fluid (not too much to flood the unit and not too little to starve the unit of fluid flow).

Second, I strongly recommend against removing the factory heat exchanger. In reality, it brings the fluid up to the correct operating temperature and does a fair job of keeping it there (unless you are making more power than stock or doing anything other than getting groceries). The operating temperature of the fluid is around 200 degrees Fahrenheit. At that temperature, the viscosity is lower and the valve body was designed for the low viscosity fluid. Remember, automatics are all about fluid flow and pressure to actuate the clutch assemblies, the lock up clutch, etc. etc. The orifices in the valve body were specified by the engineers for the viscosity of the fluid at the proper operating temperature.

Third, most inexpensive cooler cores use a high turbulence core design to maximize heat transfer at low vehicle speeds since they are primarily designed for towing (thus the 10k lb rating). This is a double edge sword that cuts you twice. First, it has a high pressure drop which means there is less pressure left over for your torque converter and lock up clutch. Second, it is extremely effective at shedding heat at low vehicle speeds which means your transmission fluid will never come up to temperature, which increases viscosity which increases pressure drop across the core even more. If you still had the factory heat exchanger in the loop, the negative effect of overcooling your fluid would be mitigated to a small degree.

That all said, your most probable cause of manual mode not working is incorrect fluid level and possibly insufficient pressure in the system as a result of the overcooling and high pressure drop. Start with setting the fluid level and see if that solves it. If that doesn't resolve the issue, then reinstall the factory heat exchanger so that fluid passes through the factory unit AFTER your cooler. If you still have a problem after all that, then disconnect the aftermarket cooler and retest. If the problem persists, then you may have damaged something inside the transmission and you'll need to take it to the dealer for further diagnosis and repair.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

-Mike

If you find some tips and tricks for the fluid level let me know please. I got a cooler from the earlier discussions 6 months ago and haven't put it in cause of his much effort it was all going to be.
I was debating calculating the volumes of the new lines and cooler, any fluid lost, and just adding that. But after reading your experience in a bit more hesitant to even try and fudge it

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The process is very simple. RTFM

I've read the manual and know the process. The key words were tips and tricks. Manuals are often not perfect or realistic guidelines.

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No problem. Our cooler kits come with instructions on how to perform the refill procedure and it really isn't that bad if you follow the steps. You will need to make a jumper wire and connect two pins on the OBDII port together and follow the procedure to enter fluid temperature detection mode. The procedure is also covered in the factory service manual which is available from a link on this forum somewhere.

I think someone may have had an issue with manual mode, but I didn't find the thread in the 5 minutes I devoted to searching for it. I know that if the transmission is overheated, manual mode will be partially disabled to protect the transmission.

Good news, Manual Mode is now working and we learned something along the way. Turns out it was pilot error. We had done what we thought was a real sanitary install, just didn't work. We had mounted the cooler vertical and used a couple of 90s to get the Marine/Aircraft look. Did look nice, but didn't work (most REALLY good looking women can't cook https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/ya/dow...ppid=yahoomail ). What we learned was with the cooler being somewhat restrictive (Thanks Mike) cooler mounted vertical and the 90s, the system was just too restrictive to be happy. Soon as we disconnected the cooler from at the transmission and installed a loop, manual mode was up and running. Then it was just a matter of doing away with the 90s and installing the cooler in a horizontal position. Not sure if just removing the 90s might have worked, but we wanted the fluid to have the least amount of resistance as possible. We may install a thermostat later if needed.

We did not do a fluid level check at this time. That being said, I think everyone should do this, just to make sure the factory got it right (stranger things have happened). I have a hacked up OBDII cable with just leads for pins 13 and 4 exposed. I was ready to do this if the above procedure didn't work. I will be doing it in the next few days. It was really hot here yesterday. Temperature right at 100 and 100+ in the shop. Transmission temp was almost at test temp before we started and I was past test temp https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/ya/dow...ppid=yahoomail I always felt like the fluid level wasn't the problem, but you never know and I can see where that's the first place to start, if you are having problems. We were careful to capture all fluid during install and checked and double checked our calculations for the hoses and cooler.

@SniddIII

I wouldn't worry too much about checking fluid level. I do think it's important to know how, just so you can. Don't let that stop you from installing your cooler. Just capture all lost fluid during install, calculate cooler and hoses, add the lost fluid to the numbers and you'll do fine.

You're playing with fire if you are driving the car around without performing the fluid level procedure. Fluid a couple of mm off in either direction can change how well the transmission works. Not sure how many times multiple people have to say it for it to sink in.

Ok, I get it now finally. Thanks

$52 (180F)
http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...3011/overview/

$77 (160F)
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/hda-163/overview/

$189
http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-th...85f-p-212.html

$189
http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-th...15f-p-434.html

On top of that, the last 2 are +$40-$50 shipping to Australia, plus fx rate, making them about 3x what my cooler costs haha!

Have you mounted the thermostat? Where? It's pretty damn heavy.

Yes. We just started working on it last night. Probably not the best place to mount it, but its the only spot we can fit it since i replaced the snorkel with a different one. It is pretty heavy lol did you get the mounting bracket for it?
http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/...028_005051.jpg

Here's the setrab core mounted along with the fan. It fits almost perfectly, just have to trim some small piece on the bumper. http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/...027_214537.jpg

I haven't started. There's only 2 spots i could put it - near the heat exchanger or wedged under the wiper fluid filler neck. I don't particularly want to melt plastic and wiring though if it's sitting at 80C

Thats what im actually worried about when we placed the thermostat inside the bumper but we'll see. Ill update after the trackday.

Aren't you more worried your setup heats up the cavity that feeds the intake?

I installed a zeek snorkel along with it so the intake is getting air from the grill. http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/...028_024217.jpg

Did you confirm which way the oil flows before installing? I just went off what was said here the last time and didn't check personally.

I ust followed whatever that was posted here. Are you wondering about the oil flow on the heat exchanger? The oil on outer inlet goes out and the middle one goes in.

Yeah, that's what I read also so I set mine up based on that too.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...1&d=1415788661
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...1&d=1414324759

I went that way also.^ I replaced the bar and fin cooler I mounted on top of the crash beam as it wasn't up to par for tracking. Not enough airflow. I went with a B&M cooler and installed it behind my intercooler. It's a tight fit, but it fits.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k8...psfwqvyiub.jpg
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k8...ps5ytc29ct.jpg
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k8...pslavx0y4r.jpg
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k8...psoabb4cur.jpg
With the intercooler
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k8...ps47n1qwom.jpg

Ok, I've installed mine. I wrapped it in some cotton clothing I cut up and I squeezed it under the washer bottle filler neck. I should have assembled it weeks ago and let the thread sealant dry because now I have to wait to start the car. There's really nowhere down near the heat exchanger to put it. The only other place I considered was next to the battery, but would require longer lines.


That brings me to my next concern.

Without the thermostat, the oil cooler is in a closed loop, it always has pressure from a single direction so all the oil goes in the cooler at the bottom and forces air out the top.

With the thermostat in there, when cold oil goes in one of 4 ports and basically is sent to the other 3 ports with equal pressure. On the hot side of the thermostat there's slightly less restriction, but it's irrelevant.

That is until 180F or whenever when the valve closes.

So, when it's cold, no oil is being forced through the cooler and forcing the air out.

Also, when cold, the oil drains back in to the transmission from the cooler lines.

So that means every time you start it cold, the transmission is over-filled (as it was without the thermostat), but now instead of priming ALL the lines, there is some air left in the lines until the valve in the thermostat fully closes at 180F (and it probably never fully closes), at which point the fluid level in the transmission will drop.

It also means when doing a level adjustment, you need to warm the fluid up to say 200F, then let it cool completely, then do the level adjustment.


That is unless I missed something. But it was pretty obvious if you blow in any one hole of the thermostat, air comes out all 3 other holes with equal pressure.

With the thermostat installed, have you observed that on cold starts, the fluid level feels wrong i.e. difficult to engage reverse, slow and/or hanging shifts?

It feels like the tstat creates a pocket of air when the car is off and the fluid drains back in to the transmission that can't be filled until it fully opens.

I basically have to let the car idle until idle drops to 700 to ensure the ATF cooler lines are fully primed now.

Without the thermostat, maybe the oil can be slightly too cold, but at least the oil lines only have a single loop that is easily primed and doesn't have an inner loop that can cause air to be trapped in it.

Not really. So far, it feels the same as the way it was before. Try to check your fluid level. What we did is we filled the oil cooler and the lines with the ATF then installed it on the lines. Its probably not gonna be on the recommended level but its somewhere close to it.

Without the thermostat, your fluid temp might drop down to 120°F. Especially on cold weather. My temp went down to 160°F even with the thermostat.

I performed the level adjustment twice, after install, and after driving up to full temp a couple times.

The level is fine when up to temperature. It's when cold that's the problem.

I'd prefer to run cooler than have incorrect fluid level or airlock or obstruction at startup, so i've removed the thermostat.

What you are saying here sounds logical, but I think you are attempting to use it as a way to explain your results.

For starters, the fluid level needs to be set while the car is running. I'm not sure if you are doing that or not.

Second of all, you have your thermostat mounted higher than your cooler or the fluid level inside the transmission. I believe that is your real problem and here is why: we mount our thermostat down low and have none of the issues you are having. Fluid will drain back into the pan from the elevated lines over time (it won't be immediate since air from the transmission will need to travel quite a ways to replace the fluid that gravity is trying to pull down to equilibrium). When you start the car, that air in the lines will need to be forced out of the circuit before fluid starts flowing freely through the system again. If you were to replace the thermostat with spliced in lines with the same routing, I suspect that you will continue to have issues.

Third of all, everyone needs to bear in mind that this is a low pressure circuit. When the fluid is cold on first start, there is 20psi coming out of the transmission. With our cooler kit, the pressure returning to the transmission is 15psi. As the temperature increases to full operating temperature, the pressures come down to 11psi out of the transmission and 9psi on the return. This is due to the reduced viscosity at higher temperatures. Ultimately, you don't have a lot of hydraulic head to work with and the more restrictions and elevation changes you introduce, the less pressure you will have returning to the transmission.

It bears repeating that overcooling the transmission fluid is a bad idea. The valve body orifices were designed to have certain pressure drops based on fluid viscosity. Preventing the fluid from reaching operating temperature will reduce fuel economy and the valve body will not operate as intended resulting in rough shifts and sluggish response.

In addition, the thermostat pill that comes standard in the Derale unit is a 165 degree thermostat despite their claim of 180. We replace that pill with a 195 degree thermostat in our kit. During our R&D, we monitored the system pressures and temperatures at two points to verify that everything was operating correctly. That is how we discovered the original thermostat was closing at 165. Running that low temperature thermostat also results in hysteresis in the system as you drive around. I could literally see the pressure changes as the valve opened and closed while cruising down the road and the temperature never reached full operating parameters. Once we swapped in the correct temperature thermostat, the system stabilized much closer to target temperatures and the pressures weren't fluctuating all over the place. In addition, we verified that cooling was not adversely affected during track testing.

The bottom line is that unless you have a dedicated track only car that gets trailered to and from the race track, you should run a thermostat with your cooler. Even still, the transmission will shift like crap during your warm up lap.

I'm not starting an argument, but the only time I ever had a single issue was with the tstat installed.

I perform the level adjustment every time I work on the AT, at least 10 times so far. Pretty sure it was this thread I told someone they're crazy for not doing it.

I've never had any difficulty engaging the transmission when cold or using manual mode after a few minutes with only the cooler. Engaging reverse when cold was smooth once the thermostat was removed again.

If I could find a way to mount the lines down low I would, but I don't fancy running oil lines next to searing hot headers and I can't see a way to run the lines past the area with the steering rack.

Never experienced slow shifts during an out lap, I don't shift at 7500 in manual mode at pit exit though.

Maybe because I'm not running a huge heatsink with fan hanging off it doesn't provide enough cooling, but never had any reduced performance at the track from over-heating and the fluid that comes out is still looks like strawberry cordial.

I didn't notice any significant improvement in fuel economy with the tstat. I still get between 5.7-6.1L/100km (40mpg) highway, 8-9L/100km (30mpg) city, 23L/100km track (10mpg). If I was back on E85 it would be easier to notice a difference because of the 33% multiplication factor.

The bottom line for me is that incorrect fluid level has a very noticeable effect at start up while lower oil temp has bugger all, so that's my choice.

I apologize if my post came across as argumentative as that was not my intent.

I recall you supporting the need to perform the level adjustment, but as I said, I wasn't sure if you were performing it while the car was running. The first time I performed it on my car, I made the mistake of bringing it up to temperature, turning the car off and setting the level with the car off. The transmission was not happy going into reverse and shifted like crap. I re-read the procedure and realized I did it incorrectly. Once it was done properly, it ran like a top.

Clearly we have had different experiences with our cars. The oil in my transmission was black as night the first time I changed it and the oil analysis showed a marked decrease in lubricant performance after literally 1 track day and 11k miles when we did the initial data logging. When I ran the car without a thermostat the performance started degrading as the outside temperatures started dropping into the 70 degree Fahrenheit (20 degree Celsius) range and below. The performance improved once the fluid came up to temperature, but I had to be flogging the crap out of the car to bring it up to operating temps without the thermostat. Of course, we use Setrab cores in our kits which do a great job of cooling which may also contribute to the difference in our experience.

That all said, I know that the TCM in these cars is quite sophisticated and that there have been numerous revisions from Subaru/Toyota and that may play a significant role in the differences in our experiences.

There is no doubt that incorrect fluid level will be of greater significance than fluid temperature when it comes to drivability.

At the end of the day, however, if you are happy with the way your car performs without a thermostat, then that is all that matters. :cheers:

If I go to AAMCO will they install a transmission temp gauge?



Nvm.. I'll just call them lol

So are you still developing your ATF cooler, or is development pretty much finished now?

R&D is completed and available through any of the retailers that carry our products.

I'm getting ready to install a cooler for my AT transmission. This is the one I was thinking of using: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...=ATVPDKIKX0DER. If anyone has a better suggestion, please let me know.

Just an up date. After installing my supercharger I had so much stacked up in front of the radiator I moved my engine and transmission coolers outward behind the now removed fog lights.

Dang this is a sick setup! How do your temperatures look?

Has anybody explored the addition of airflow like a fan on the stock AT cooler? Would that get you anywhere?

Hey guys,

Was wondering what is the fluid direction of the lines from the transmission/auxiliary cooler? I had my trans cooler installed and looks like I am getting some abnormal noises from the lines. Just want to make sure it is routed correctly.

Quick question: Is the hose from the auxiliary oil cooler and from the transmission the same sized 3/8" ID?

Trans fluid lines are 3/8...

I'm sure the stock AT cooler is just a heat exchanger based off the engine coolant